Kyle Gibson 937127 Posted June 18, 2008 at 05:37 AM Posted June 18, 2008 at 05:37 AM Stictly for VFR...If an airport is cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E, what is expected of the pilots? I'm not talking about weather...I'm talking about are any radio communcations different on the ground? Are all aircraft expected to be on unicom for ground, takeoff and landing operations? Is it possible for someone to be in contact with ATC on the ground, for takeoff or taxi? It seems logical to me that the only thing that changes from a surface cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G airport is how far from the clouds and minimum visibility; aircraft still are expected to be on unicom until airborn minus runway and weather information that could be requested I guess from ATC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Rosard 879188 Posted June 18, 2008 at 09:19 AM Posted June 18, 2008 at 09:19 AM Sounds to me like you answered your own question correctly. An airport in cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E is still "untowered" even though it's in controlled airspace. Josh Rosard ZDV PPL ASEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakhbir Singh 936840 Posted June 18, 2008 at 09:45 AM Posted June 18, 2008 at 09:45 AM Sounds to me like you answered your own question correctly. An airport in cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E is still "untowered" even though it's in controlled airspace. lol.. sorry was a bit funny SWA1501 Lak Singh Remember: When in doubt, ask! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted June 18, 2008 at 02:48 PM Posted June 18, 2008 at 02:48 PM Stictly for VFR...If an airport is cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E, what is expected of the pilots? I'm not talking about weather...I'm talking about are any radio communcations different on the ground? Are all aircraft expected to be on unicom for ground, takeoff and landing operations? Is it possible for someone to be in contact with ATC on the ground, for takeoff or taxi? It seems logical to me that the only thing that changes from a surface cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G airport is how far from the clouds and minimum visibility; aircraft still are expected to be on unicom until airborn minus runway and weather information that could be requested I guess from ATC. It is possible to be in communications with ATC in a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E surface area. From a purely VFR standpoint, however, this doesn't do much good. Certainly a radar controller isn't going to provide local or ground services at a location they can't physically see. When it comes to uncontrolled airports, VFR aircraft by and large take care of themselves with UNICOM / CTAF calls. Of course, airports with advisory service can provide weather and favored runway information as well. From an en-route point of view, we normally terminate radar service for aircraft who are recieving flight following once they report the destination in sight or otherwise begin their descent. That way aircraft can change over to advisory frequency and make the appropriate in-the-blind traffic calls or advisory requests in time to enter the pattern safely. ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Najaro 839595 Posted June 19, 2008 at 02:19 AM Posted June 19, 2008 at 02:19 AM I'm talking about are any radio communcations different on the ground? Are all aircraft expected to be on unicom for ground, takeoff and landing operations? Is it possible for someone to be in contact with ATC on the ground, for takeoff or taxi? Usually cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E only extends to the 1200AGL although around certain airports with instrument approaches it may extend to 700AGL or to the SFC this is depicted on a VFR sectional chart. As someone else said the only instance you would perhaps contact a terminal or center controller on the ground at a uncontrolled airport is to obtain an IFR clearance/release if you choose to departure IFR (you always have the option if the weather and pilot/company procedures allows to depart VFR and pick up IFR once airborne). Keep in mind the ATC freq for that area is usually only going to be effective once airborne so the airport will have to have a RCO freq to the tracon if not you have to either call on the phone/radio to get a FSS to relay the clr/release. So is it possible to for a pilot to be in contact with ATC at an uncontrolled airport while on the ground yes but only to obtain a clearance to depart IFR they are not going to be providing any sort of ATC. Pilots would still be expected (not required) to broadcast intentions on CTAF. If ATC releases one aircraft to depart IFR from an uncontrolled airport or clears an aircraft for an instrument approach while IFR that airport is effectively shutdown for IFR traffic until the aircraft departs/cancels IFR. In addition after ATC release an aircraft for departure or clears an aircraft for an instrument approach they tell the pilot freq change is approved and any additional instructions. With an arrival they would say freq change approved any additional instructions and insist the aircraft cancels IFR via a FSS, landline or RCO (if applicable) once on the ground (again the pilot has the option at that point to cancel IFR in the air if he/she's able). Weather information is almost always broadcast through an AWOS freq at uncontrolled fields so pilots will not need to ask ATC for that information. The only person(s) who determine the active runways at uncontrolled fields are the pilots although the unicom operator might give a hint keep in mind these are usually nice little old ladys (no offense) who work the front desk of the local FBO. One thing you hear a lot from ATC even though they may have the ability to look up the weather since their is no ATIS (its uncontrolled) "no landing or weather information available for the XYZ airport say type approach requested". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Gibson 937127 Posted June 19, 2008 at 04:36 AM Author Posted June 19, 2008 at 04:36 AM Thank ya'll for your responses. I guess I had the right idea. I just was wondering if it was possible for someone maybe to monitor a radar controller instead of UNICOM if at a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E surface airport. It doesn't seem logical, but IDK...sometimes I make things too complicated. I understand now and all's good . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Najaro 839595 Posted June 19, 2008 at 05:07 AM Posted June 19, 2008 at 05:07 AM I just was wondering if it was possible for someone maybe to monitor a radar controller instead of UNICOM if at a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E surface airport. It doesn't seem logical, but IDK...sometimes I make things too complicated. I understand now and all's good . You would still ideally like to be on the CTAF freq. You could in theory always monitor the radar controller at anytime when flying in or around his airspace in fact its not uncommon in real life just to keep an idea on whats going on around you. Often times you hear ATC pointing you out to IFR and particpating VFR aircraft keep in mind the controller doesn't know your listening to his frequency. If you were under radar services as you approached the uncontrolled field you would expect the controller to terminate your radar services and give you a freq change. However if you wanted to I guess you could stay on his freq and fly right into the clas e airport but he wouldn't be providing you with any further services and you might be missing out on CTAF info although you could monitor both freqs. Alot of times aircraft will start broadcasting intentions on CTAF while they are still with ATC just to give everyone a heads up but I can't think of any good reason to stay on his freq after he dumps you. Lastly your not required to broadcast on CTAF if you don't want too now that may not be the smartest idea and its mainly that way to accompany those aircraft without radios. It is always possible to monitor a radar controller anytime instead of UNICOM but don't forget his freq is not going to work for you on the ground or close to the ground 99.9% of the time. I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume by monitor you mean just listen not be in contact with the controller. However you would find the most current traffic situation of the CTAF freq. A good controller will usually give you a heads up of what he sees in the pattern before he give you a freq change, but they are usually quick to remind you that there radar is inacurrate low to the ground anywhere not near the radar site and all they have is un-verified mode c tags or primary targets so its not really anything to bet your behind on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted June 19, 2008 at 01:40 PM Posted June 19, 2008 at 01:40 PM My favorite, personally, to IFR or VFR aircraft recieving flight following to an uncontrolled airport showing a/c in the pattern: "N12345, numerous targets in the vicinity of (airport), radar service terminated, squawk VFR, change to advisory frequency approved." That is seconded only by: "N12345, no traffic observed between you and (airport), radar service terminated, squawk VFR, change to advisory frequency approved." ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bromback Posted June 19, 2008 at 03:10 PM Posted June 19, 2008 at 03:10 PM My favorite, personally, to IFR or VFR aircraft recieving flight following to an uncontrolled airport showing a/c in the pattern: "N12345, numerous targets in the vicinity of (airport), radar service terminated, squawk VFR, change to advisory frequency approved." That is seconded only by: "N12345, no traffic observed between you and (airport), radar service terminated, squawk VFR, change to advisory frequency approved." ~Nate Since when do IFR traffic receive flight following?? You are correct with the phraseology on both of your quotes there, just be careful a controller cannot give an IFR aircraft swk VFR unless he has canceled IFR services. It would read exactly the same as both lines above but emit the "squawk VFR" portion. Matt Bromback Air Traffic Manager N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted June 19, 2008 at 04:32 PM Posted June 19, 2008 at 04:32 PM Well... that's why I had the word "or" in there. Though, I do flight follow all IFR aircraft very carefully Yes, should have qualified, don't tell IFR to squawk VFR unless/until they cancel. ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardo De Carvalho 97126 Posted June 20, 2008 at 04:50 AM Posted June 20, 2008 at 04:50 AM Confirm me just one thing... Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B the speed limit is 380 KT within all the vertical extension? (even below 10,000') Regards, Bernardo de Carvalho "First, master the fundamentals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Everette Posted June 20, 2008 at 12:31 PM Posted June 20, 2008 at 12:31 PM Confirm me just one thing... Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B the speed limit is 380 KT within all the vertical extension? (even below 10,000') Regards, 14 CFR - § 91.117 Aircraft speed -Dan Everette CFI, CFII, MEI Having the runway in sight just at TDZE + 100 is like Mom, Warm cookies and milk, and Christmas morning, all wrapped into one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardo De Carvalho 97126 Posted June 20, 2008 at 03:00 PM Posted June 20, 2008 at 03:00 PM Thank you Dan Its just that where I'm taking my CPL they say that Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B the only speed restriction for VFR is 380 KT...go figure it out...and they don't even have any Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B in this country. I believe better in you than in what they say... Thanks for the input once more! Regards, Bernardo de Carvalho "First, master the fundamentals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bromback Posted June 20, 2008 at 07:02 PM Posted June 20, 2008 at 07:02 PM Thank you Dan Its just that where I'm taking my CPL they say that Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B the only speed restriction for VFR is 380 KT...go figure it out...and they don't even have any Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B in this country. I believe better in you than in what they say... Thanks for the input once more! Regards, Well when you ask a question in the "United States" section of the forum you can expect an answer based off our regulations... I am not sure what country your flying in to get your CPL but whoever told you about an airspace which you say doesn't exist, their credibility for information should be closely looked at. Take care!! Matt Bromback Air Traffic Manager N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Gibson 937127 Posted June 23, 2008 at 04:39 AM Author Posted June 23, 2008 at 04:39 AM I'm guessing Portugal lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardo De Carvalho 97126 Posted June 23, 2008 at 10:36 AM Posted June 23, 2008 at 10:36 AM Negative...In my country Portugal I still know the speed restrictions (hope so!)...we don't have Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B either... I was talking specifically about Brazil, since its where I'm taking my CPL! Does someone know in general (ICAO) if those 380 KTS for the whole vertical range of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B are applicable? Regards, Bernardo de Carvalho "First, master the fundamentals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Wollenberg 810243 Posted June 23, 2008 at 06:04 PM Posted June 23, 2008 at 06:04 PM Bernardo, it would probably be best to ask your question over in the Brazil forum: http://forums.vatsim.net/viewforum.php?f=21 I don't think you're going to find too many people in the US who know the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo speed restrictions for Brazil. Bryan Wollenberg ZLA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardo De Carvalho 97126 Posted June 23, 2008 at 07:54 PM Posted June 23, 2008 at 07:54 PM Does someone know in general (ICAO) if those 380 KTS for the whole vertical range of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B are applicable? Regards, ICAO GENERAL if someone knows...I would appreciate... Thanks Bernardo de Carvalho "First, master the fundamentals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Najaro 839595 Posted June 23, 2008 at 08:42 PM Posted June 23, 2008 at 08:42 PM Confirm me just one thing... Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B the speed limit is 380 KT within all the vertical extension? (even below 10,000') Regards, Ok just so we are clear 380knts is extremely fast and would PRACTICALLY not apply to ALMOST all civilian aircraft in fact off the top of my head I can't think of any civilian a/c that can do 380knts. The ones that can do 380KNTS barely can do it. I don't know of this regulation in any of the US CFR's as Dan already pointed out 91.117 outlines "Aircraft Speed" and it's not in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Wollenberg 810243 Posted June 23, 2008 at 09:16 PM Posted June 23, 2008 at 09:16 PM Does someone know in general (ICAO) if those 380 KTS for the whole vertical range of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B are applicable? Regards, ICAO GENERAL if someone knows...I would appreciate... Thanks Bernardo...I'm not trying to be a jerk, but like I said, you would probably get an answer if you asked somewhere else. I have no idea what (or who?) the "ICAO GENERAL" is, but here are the rules that apply in the U.S. [Title 14, Volume 2] [Revised as of January 1, 2003] From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 14CFR91.117] [Page 186] TITLE 14--AERONAUTICSAND SPACE CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (CONTINUED) PART 91--GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES--Table of Contents Subpart B--Flight Rules Sec. 91.117 Aircraft speed. (a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.). (b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section. © No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). (d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed. [Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34292, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-219, 55 FR 34708, Aug. 24, 1990; Amdt. 91-227, 56 FR 65657, Dec. 17, 1991; Amdt. 91-233, 58 FR 43554, Aug. 17, 1993] Bryan Wollenberg ZLA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardo De Carvalho 97126 Posted June 23, 2008 at 09:20 PM Posted June 23, 2008 at 09:20 PM Yes thats the reason why I'm asking... 380 KT is just an absurd ! I believe this speed restriction only applies in Brazil. I've read here that for VFR traffic in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B speed limit is 380 KT even below 10,000' and for IFR in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B the speed limit isn't even specified it only says NON-APPLICABLE. Maybe this is because this kind of airspace cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ification isn't being used...so they have not imposed the necessary restrictions. Thanks for the help! Regards, Bernardo de Carvalho "First, master the fundamentals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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