How to deal with an emergency from the ATC perspective?

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

I know one as controller can deny emergencies while controlling in VATSIM, but if the policy for emergencies hasn’t change to this date I think we can also take them if we want. **The experts on this please clarify**.

 

Anyway I am wondering if what I think are the correct steps to deal with an emergency are the correct ones.

 

First: The simple requirements to start dealing with an emergency are three as per 7110.65: Ask the Aircraft Identification and type, type of emergency and the pilot desire (of course dealing with an emergency have more steps and questions plenty discussed on 7110.65).

 

So it is obvious that there are different emergencies scenarios, but I want to discuss the following one, though other scenarios might have other ways of dealing with.

 

On the proposed scenario Tower, Approach and Final Approach are online and the scenario [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umes that a controller that receives the emergency call is approach: Let suppose that the traffic departed runway 32L from X airport and he lost the left engine.

 

The controller running approach gets the call from the pilot informing he has the left engine out.

 

My understanding is that the controller should ask first if he is declaring an emergency so to deal with an emergency or just to give instructions to bring the traffic back as fast as he can, but not as a priority; then the second question should be “What engine the pilot lostâ€

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

I would also ask for souls and fuel on board, when they have a spare moment.

[Jason Baxter 920557]

Aside from ascertaining the information you described the next step is to arrange for a controller to handle the emergency instead of choking the frequency which is now needed to clear the airspace to allow the plane to land. In all likelihood the final controller will sterilize their airspace because its not likely the runway will be clear anytime soon. Thats the reaction if he declares an emergency, if not then it could be treated as a typical arrival. Approach is also obligated to inform the tower of the impending emergency so they can make necessary arrangements, fire trucks, whatever the planes dispatch requires, pilot request, etc.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

First,,All emergencies are fair game in my opinion. Even during events!

 

Second, the controller has nothing to do with the emergency ,,,yet.

 

Simply put, whatever the pilot brings to the table, the controller must ask, "Do you wish to declare an emergency?". If the pilot says no, then he gets treated as any other flight. If he says yes, then he may devieate as necessary and byp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] any rule necessary, for the safety of the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]snegers and crew. A controller may "suggest" a resoltion, but the pilot gets a a free p[Mod - Happy Thoughts].

 

Now,,, the controller must clear the arispace for the emergency as best he can, and once again, he can "Suggest" a resolotion, or help out, but it is up to the pilot for the final decision,,NOT THE CONTROLLER !!!

Edited July 8, 2008 at 06:15 AM by Guest

[Lakhbir Singh 936840]

Aside from ascertaining the information you described the next step is to arrange for a controller to handle the emergency instead of choking the frequency which is now needed to clear the airspace to allow the plane to land. In all likelihood the final controller will sterilize their airspace because its not likely the runway will be clear anytime soon. Thats the reaction if he declares an emergency, if not then it could be treated as a typical arrival. Approach is also obligated to inform the tower of the impending emergency so they can make necessary arrangements, fire trucks, whatever the planes dispatch requires, pilot request, etc.

 

 

i usually ask ground for a cup of coffee on arrival at the gates..some atc's think im stupid

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

First,,All emergencies are fair game in my opinion. Even during events!

 

Second, the controller has nothing to do with the emergency ,,,yet.

 

Simply put, whatever the pilot brings to the table, the controller must ask, "Do you wish to declare an emergency?". If the pilot says no, then he gets treated as any other flight. If he says yes, then he may devieate as necessary and byp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] any rule necessary, for the safety of the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]snegers and crew. A controller may "suggest" a resoltion, but the pilot gets a a free p[Mod - Happy Thoughts].

 

Now,,, the controller must clear the arispace for the emergency as best he can, and once again, he can "Suggest" a resolotion, or help out, but it is up to the pilot for the final decision,,NOT THE CONTROLLER !!!

 

Dennis what is “resolotionâ€

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

I would also ask for souls and fuel on board, when they have a spare moment.

 

 

In other cases is wise to ask for fuel, but on this case is obvious the a/c has enough fuel on board since he is departing.

 

Probably the pilot need to use the jettison system or fly for at least one hour or maybe more to waste the extra fuel and get back safely to the ground; this is in those cases were weight is over landing-weight.

 

As for p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger onboard, is fine probably!

[Norman Blackburn]

and byp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] any rule necessary, for the safety of the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]snegers and crew. A controller may "suggest" a resoltion, but the pilot gets a a free p[Mod - Happy Thoughts].

 

Now,,, the controller must clear the arispace for the emergency as best he can, and once again, he can "Suggest" a resolotion, or help out, but it is up to the pilot for the final decision,,NOT THE CONTROLLER !!!

 

Whilst I can't fault your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion Dennis, on VATSIM things run a little different given that no actual lives are at stake. For this reason, the converse is actually the case online where the controller is the one with the final call.

 

Pilots are permitted to declare in-flight emergencies. If, for any reason, air traffic control requests the pilot to terminate the emergency, then the pilot must do so IMMEDIATELY or log off of VATSIM. Pilots are not permitted to simulate, in any manner, an unlawful act while logged onto the VATSIM.net network including, but not limited to, declaring a hijack by statement utilizing either voice or text or by entering a transponder code of 7500.

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

and byp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] any rule necessary, for the safety of the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]snegers and crew. A controller may "suggest" a resoltion, but the pilot gets a a free p[Mod - Happy Thoughts].

 

Now,,, the controller must clear the arispace for the emergency as best he can, and once again, he can "Suggest" a resolotion, or help out, but it is up to the pilot for the final decision,,NOT THE CONTROLLER !!!

 

Whilst I can't fault your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion Dennis, on VATSIM things run a little different given that no actual lives are at stake. For this reason, the converse is actually the case online where the controller is the one with the final call.

 

Pilots are permitted to declare in-flight emergencies. If, for any reason, air traffic control requests the pilot to terminate the emergency, then the pilot must do so IMMEDIATELY or log off of VATSIM. Pilots are not permitted to simulate, in any manner, an unlawful act while logged onto the VATSIM.net network including, but not limited to, declaring a hijack by statement utilizing either voice or text or by entering a transponder code of 7500.

 

I am sorry to disagree with you Norman (only on this case )

 

Still is the pilot call, to me as soon as the controller accept the emergency (meaning he will surp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the policy of no emergency on VATSIM is the controller does not allows it); is the pilot call not the controller.

 

This is a simulation and we should do it the right way. Yes, I understand that the controller still has the power to cancel the emergency at any time, but I’m sure Dennis meant the real world procedure and if the controller accept that emergency he should continue it (to the best he can) as in the real world and again the final decision is the pilot calls.

[Dustin Robbins 887494]

I would also ask for souls and fuel on board, when they have a spare moment.

In other cases is wise to ask for fuel, but on this case is obvious the a/c has enough fuel on board since he is departing.

 

Probably the pilot need to use the jettison system or fly for at least one hour or maybe more to waste the extra fuel and get back safely to the ground; this is in those cases were weight is over landing-weight.

When declaring an emergency, fuel should be given in time remaining. When FOB information is relayed to ARFF, sit should be given in pounds or gallons, not time remaining.

 

*edited for accuracy, thanks for pointing that out... hadn't yet taken my head out of the sand this morning.

Edited July 8, 2008 at 08:30 PM by Guest

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

Good Point, I agree with you!

 

... but what is ARFF? Sorry for my ignorance!

[Bo Gercke 845743]

The information is relayed to ARFF, so they know how much flammable liquid you are carrying onboard. FOB should be given in pounds or gallons, not time remaining.

 

This is not accurate. We need to know how long he can stay in the air. You can have a great plan all day long, but if he falls out of the sky due to fuel exhaustion, it's a moot point. As far as p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing it on to the firefighters, if we can p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] it on to them, we will. If we cannot, we don't. They are WAYYYYYY at the bottom on our list of priorities. At a field with a lot of operations, generally, you're working to get everyone else out of the way of the emergency, both on the ground and in the air. When the pilots state their intentions, it makes it easy for us to tell the firefighters where they need to go park, and wait. And that's what they do.

 

Ariel, emergencies are one of those things that require you to think your way out of the situation. To depend on the 7110 to tell you how to sort an emergency out is a recipe for disaster. That book, in that situation, will do little more than make a good footrest, or booster seat. Second, once a pilot declares an emergency, he DOES become priority, but he needs to be worked in to your picture. You're not going to hold everyone else to get that guy into the field, rather work him into your sequence. You will hold a few guys after him in the event he FOD's out your runway. I'm talking real world, here, FYI. You don't have to worry aobut a FOD'ded runway on VATSIM.

 

As far as runway use goes, you need to use whichever one(s) the tower is using. How badly do you want to screw your local controllers? Picture this if you will:

"Tower, Approach..."

"Tower's on."

"Hey we got this emergency inbound, but we're taking him to the opposite runway to accomodate him for his emergency...."

"You're gonna do WHAT????"

"You do know we have 3 departures ready to go on the oppostie end, right?"

 

Or any variation of the sort. Point here is that over thinking this is bad, and getting him on deck safely, and efficiently is very good. Keeping it simple also keeps your butt out of a sling. You simply did everything that you could do get him on deck safely, and efficiently, but he crashed. Not on you. It's then on the pilot.

[Norman Blackburn]

Arial,

 

I am all for realism however the cynic in me reads Dennis' intent rather differently as being that the pilot can call the emergency and it is up to the controller to deal with it the so called "free p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]."

 

Even if the controller accepts the emergency they can, at any stage, rescind it. Yes, the pilot should be given the same options as one would expect in the real world but the final call (on the scenario rather than the execution) continue to remain with the controller.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

O-M-G How can a controller tell any pilot wha to do in an emergency !!!! That is absurd !!!!

 

Sorry Mrs. Jones, we didnt have time to deal with your husband's inflight emergency today.

 

Norm, you need to stick with DCRM not CRM

 

I can site many instances where the controller could do nothing, and was usually not even a pilot, and had no clue as to what was happening.

 

For example, unless the controller is within 10 feet of the cockpit, he/she does not know what is happening. Heck, even the pilots don't know what is happening for sure until we sort things out. The answer from the controller shold be, Cleard to land ANY RUNWAY !

BTW Ariel, it makes no difference to us which engine quits or whether we turn left or right! ((Unless it is a light aircraft that is not capable of flying, or marginally flying on one engine))

 

That said, and we were talking about engine failures...Losing an engine is not a big deal (Other than a light twin) In most "commercial" aircraft, you do nothing for the first 400 ft anyway. Then, we usually will get control of the aircraft, THEN and ONLY THEN, tell a controller anything after climbing through 1500 ft. If it's just an engine failure, (No fire, no control issue) we just follow the controller's direction and fall back into the prescribed pattern, "hopefully expedited". Otherwise, we do what we feel necessary for the safety of the crew and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers, but ATC is on the bottom of the list of our tasks.

AS a footnote, CRM (Cockpit Resourse Management) shows that ATC is a good resouce, but not a mandantory resource.

 

 

Here is an example, and good practice if any of you guys want to pretend a little harder each time you blast off from somewhere...NOTE, no where does it say follow controller instructions...We don't have to speak a word to a controller, especially if we're busy, but we try our best to advise ATC of our intenions...

This is an abbreviate clearance. The actual checklist is much more detailed, but his type of clearance is used for subsequent flights after the first flight of the day with the same crew.

 

The Take Off briefing ""WAS HERE"" It was pretty handy. However, It was deleted due to Norm's behavior below

 

This will be a normal take off.

 

[The rest was deleted]

Edited July 8, 2008 at 05:20 PM by Guest

[Norman Blackburn]

The great thing abou CR is you look at the whole picture, not ignoring the bits you choose to do so because it suits your argument.

 

Once again, *just* for Dennis, I will point out that my take on this is from VATSIM's perspective and will continue to be so.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

You know, you try to help, then someone wants to start a fight.....

 

Thus, I have deleted the Take Off Briefing that some of you guys would have though handy. You can thank Norm for it

 

I'm done.

[Norman Blackburn]

You know, you try to help, then someone wants to start a fight.....

 

Thus, I have deleted the Take Off Briefing that some of you guys would have though handy. You can thank Norm for it

 

Your call. Shame you see it that way. Im sure the majority won't though.

[Dan Everette]

Cue the "little teapot" music:

 

I'm an Internet Troll

Short and stout,

Here is my keyboard, here is my mouse

When I get all steamed up, watch me reply

Just let me mis-quote and click submit

[Stephen Sculley-Beaman]

Cue the "little teapot" music:

 

I'm an Internet Troll

Short and stout,

Here is my keyboard, here is my mouse

When I get all steamed up, watch me reply

Just let me mis-quote and click submit

 

Be careful....you might have a team of slander-seeking lawyers after you!

[Scott Johnston 890281]

I'm done.

Hallelujah!

[Harold Rutila 974112]

This is better than Comedy Central.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Be careful....you might have a team of slander-seeking lawyers after you!

 

Yesterday called. He told me to tell you that he wants his joke back. You've made frivolous lawsuit jokes in most of your posts, recently.... Not picking on you, just picking on you, a little bit.... All in good fun.

 

Dennis...Dennis...Dennis...

 

That you were once VATUSA1 (maybe should I say Craig Merriman's stooge) in and of itself is absolutely embarr[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing. If you are done, there is no one here who is going to miss you at all. If you're done, just walk away. Go. Really. Just go. There are many people who have invested countless numbers of hours, energy, and resources to make this network what it is today. That it has slipped mildly, and few have failed to notice is a reflection on the leadership, but your current position; to kick it while down reflects poorly on you. This is a hobby. You're not paid to be here; you're not even really wanted here. Why? Because you took what is the measuring stick of the network, by the throat, and tried to singlehandedly turn it into your playground. It was high time someone saw through your buffoonery and benched you. It's one decision that I ageee with from the leadership.

 

But for you to come back into the network to essentially stir the pot, and create issues, reflects your true level of immaturity, and again, reflects quite poorly on the legwork done by those who selected you as VATUSA1. All one has to do is look at everything that you've touched, starting at ZTL, than on to VATUSA, and again, back to ZTL, and everyone can get an idea of the quality of work that you produce. Jeff Williams had an AWESOME thing going in ZTL. Enter Mr. Whitley. Done. Something else that is appaling to me is your observation that online time has tanked. YOU did this, Dennis. YOU are responsible for creating the mess in Atlanta. You took credit for a whole host of other things, wouldn't it be right to own this one, also? If you want me to produce numbers, I'd be happy to. Your operations, time online, and productivity tanked. But they (Mr. Merriman, and gang) considered you the "rising star". And off you went, ascending up the ranks. The Staff (see above) got an earful from Mr. Temple, and was asked to move along, as I quote, "His services were no longer appreciated." And enter Mr. Whitley. Do we even need to talk about Chicago? Holy shikies... That was scary. And FINALLY after a few months of this ongoing circus, they sent your hiney off into cyber space. Finally. After a few month hiatus, you decide that you want to come back. So you do. First, to the VATSIM forums. And you've brought your circus with you! Ringling Bros. has nothing on you, Pal. And than you started to make waves over in ZTL again. Well done. You've won a ton of fans over there, also.

 

So my question is this, Dennis. What is your purpose? What are you trying to accomplish on the network? You're controlling at Macon tower, minimally. You're not flying on the network, but you sure are doing a whole lot of snooping around, and watching and listening to other controllers. What is your point? If you have none, other than creating issues, work, and trouble for other people, move on. All of your drivel about how controlling really works is just that. Yet you espouse it like gospel. Why? Are you that arrogant to believe that you can do my job better than me? Are you that arrogant to believe that you know more about what we do than a whole bunch of other guys who do this for real, and take this "game" VERY seriously?

 

Why? Because we got our start here, and we understand the power that the network can have in helping us learn, and understand the basics of our profession. But of course you wouldn't know that because you've never spent a day of your life in our cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]rooms, labs, simulators, radar rooms, or control towers applying this "game" for real.

 

If you're all done, than move on and let us play our "game". Don't worry, we'll be perfectly fine here in our little sandbox.

 

Lastly, don't ever think I wouldn't say any of this to your face, because I would. In a definitely more colorful manner. I just want to dispel any myth that I'm really the quiet, cowardly, non-confrontational, pacifist type in person, who hides behind a monitor.

Edited July 9, 2008 at 01:54 AM by Guest

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Oh, and Ariel.... I'm sorry for the threadjack.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Maybe I can make a clarification before this gets locked...

 

Norman is basing his comments on the operations of VATSIM. The controller can deny any and all emergencies if he so chooses. IF he accepts the emergency, then it will be the pilot's call on how to handle the situation. IF that call conflicts with the controller's traffic and the controller decides to cancel the emergency, then the pilot needs to abort the emergency and fly normal or log off. This is being said in simple terms for understanding.

 

In the real world, the pilot will always have the final say as to the safety of his/her flight, including the emergency. HOWEVER, the pilot will not be arrogant or otherwise rude to the ATC trying to help him/her.

[Benton Wilmes]

You know, you try to help, then someone wants to start a fight.....

 

Finally a public admission that you were just looking to start something.

 

I'm done.

 

Wow, some deja vu right there. Let's see if you stick to your word this time.