Keith Smith Posted July 25, 2008 at 02:08 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 02:08 PM In the spirit of providing the most realistic experience for pilots who fly on the network, it's worth drawing attention to the fact that the vast majority of Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers in the USA are non-radar facilities. Controllers who work these facilities should try to picture themselves sitting in these towers with nothing but a pair of eyeballs, and perhaps a set of binoculars (let's ignore the DBRITE radar feeds that can be used to help find planes, but not the primary tool for handling traffic...) I recently flew into a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D facility, where the tower not only knew precisely where I was (even though I was beyond visual range), but also the callsign and location of an aircraft behind me that had not yet CALLED the tower. The 'tower' mode in VRC can be a bad thing if the information is used incorrectly. In such a case, the tower controller should not been able to see me, and certainly wouldn't have known there was traffic behind me, let alone its callsign. I was also asked to report the traffic (at my 6 o'clock) in sight. Not having a giant rear-view mirror, that was not possible. Traffic beyond visual range should simply be given pattern entry instructions (based on their reported position). Once they are 'in sight' (ie. within a range that would make them visible to the naked eye in the real world), continue to work them in the pattern or give the appropriate landing clearance. For example, in my case, I should've probably heard "report a 2 mile right base for rwy xx" For really solid examples of how to handle Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields, I would humbly suggest listening to some liveatc.net feeds (Click the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D link). Notice there's no radar contact, very few traffic calls containing the phrase "o'clock", and plenty of instructions telling pilots to report reaching a certain point in the pattern which is easily visible to the field (that's generally how arrivals beyond visual range are handled) I'll be the first to admit, there isn't very much traffic in/out of Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields on VATSIM...but there's enough to warrant an attempt to get the procedures right. Besides, it's not uncommon to have guys flying patterns a B/C airfields on VATSIM, and the pattern skills/calls can be used equally well in those cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Bolt Posted July 25, 2008 at 03:27 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 03:27 PM In the spirit of providing the most realistic experience for pilots who fly on the network, it's worth drawing attention to the fact that the vast majority of Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers in the USA are non-radar facilities. Controllers who work these facilities should try to picture themselves sitting in these towers with nothing but a pair of eyeballs, and perhaps a set of binoculars (let's ignore the DBRITE radar feeds that can be used to help find planes, but not the primary tool for handling traffic...) I recently flew into a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D facility, where the tower not only knew precisely where I was (even though I was beyond visual range), but also the callsign and location of an aircraft behind me that had not yet CALLED the tower. The 'tower' mode in VRC can be a bad thing if the information is used incorrectly. In such a case, the tower controller should not been able to see me, and certainly wouldn't have known there was traffic behind me, let alone its callsign. I was also asked to report the traffic (at my 6 o'clock) in sight. Not having a giant rear-view mirror, that was not possible. Traffic beyond visual range should simply be given pattern entry instructions (based on their reported position). Once they are 'in sight' (ie. within a range that would make them visible to the naked eye in the real world), continue to work them in the pattern or give the appropriate landing clearance. For example, in my case, I should've probably heard "report a 2 mile right base for rwy xx" For really solid examples of how to handle Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields, I would humbly suggest listening to some liveatc.net feeds (Click the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D link). Notice there's no radar contact, very few traffic calls containing the phrase "o'clock", and plenty of instructions telling pilots to report reaching a certain point in the pattern which is easily visible to the field (that's generally how arrivals beyond visual range are handled) I'll be the first to admit, there isn't very much traffic in/out of Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields on VATSIM...but there's enough to warrant an attempt to get the procedures right. Besides, it's not uncommon to have guys flying patterns a B/C airfields on VATSIM, and the pattern skills/calls can be used equally well in those cases. I agree with most of what you are saying here, but why are you ignoring the DBRITE system. Many cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers in the real world have this system and they use it daily. I fly in and out of Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D and the controllers will often use the DBRITE system to identify aircraft moving in and out of the Delta Airspace. You are right in saying that they don't say radar contact, but its not true that they don't say ..."o'clock"... when giving a traffic advisory. I agree that people shouldn't say radar contact and such, but some of the stuff you are saying is wrong. Eric R. Bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Baker 1004102 Posted July 25, 2008 at 03:34 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 03:34 PM For a good cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D exercise, connect VRC to FS, turn off the aircraft labels, minimize VRC and go! ZMP_BD MITRE OP1 survivor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Doubleday Posted July 25, 2008 at 04:57 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 04:57 PM (edited) I wholeheartedly agree with KS on this. I'm actually glad he posted something about it. Eric, although you are absolutely correct that DBRITE towers may issue traffic advisories via the clock reference (I witnessed this at Chicago Executive), it is a bad habit to rely solely on the DBRITE to separate aircraft at the tower level... this is the exact problem I run into with numerous CTI students in the tower labs... sometimes we have to cover up the DBRITE to stop them from using it so much... I understand a lot of this falls on the ARTCCs who are not fortunate to have experienced individuals in their training staff to teach about the differences. Again, this brings me back to one of my last suggestions in a previous post - those of you thinking about getting into ATC in the real world, be very cautious who you learn from on VATSIM... in some cases it can do more harm than good. I've seen it foster many bad habits in some individuals. It is ten times harder to learn the correct way after you've been doing something wrong 1000 times without realizing it. However, understanding KS's original intent, trying to provide more realistic service at the tower level on VATSIM... after all, we are attempting to simulate the real world - no? It is pretty hard to see most aircraft beyond about 2 to 2.5 miles in the real world from a tower (unless it's a very large jet)... -AJ Edited July 25, 2008 at 05:03 PM by Guest Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Doubleday Posted July 25, 2008 at 04:59 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 04:59 PM For a good cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D exercise, connect VRC to FS, turn off the aircraft labels, minimize VRC and go! It's fantastic that we are able to use the tower view through VRC... definitely a great suggestion to those looking to provide more realistic services... for those of you with dual screens, you can also reference VRC as a DBRITE while doing this (something I find quite helpful when working tower from time to time). -AJ Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Mathieu 998318 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:02 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:02 PM For a good cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D exercise, connect VRC to FS, turn off the aircraft labels, minimize VRC and go! My favorite position is a busy tower and I use virtual tower view, position reports and flight strips. I have the most fun in the tower Best Regards, Thomas Mathieu VATAME1 Region Director VATSIM Africa Middle East http://www.vatame.net [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Bartolotta 912967 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM The other day visiting Bridgeport (BDR) Tower, a non-radar cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D, the controller explained how position reports by the pilots are their absolute BEST resource for sequencing traffic. Pilot will call up "Bridgeport Tower, 9-5-6-1-X with Hotel, request touch and goes" -- that is not much help. In fact, I find even on a clear day it's difficult to see from the Tower for aircraft on final, and even sometimes in the pattern. So giving a clear, concise, and relevant position report becomes so vital to the Tower so they may successfully handle traffic. What I notice on VATSIM often is Tower controllers don't ask for pilots to report at specific points. I can't remember the last time flying in the r/w where the controller didn't ask me to report either on a x-mile base, midfield downwind, turning final, whatever...something! And if the pilot doesn't, it can cause a big problem. Several weeks ago I was flying in the pattern at BDR and a LearJet inbound was told to report a 4 mile base, they didn't, and suddenly the Tower realized they were on short final, after he had already cleared an aircraft to takeoff (and the aircraft was just about to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the hold short line to go). He sent the Lear around and held the departure for a bit longer, because he was expecting to hear the Learjet make the position report and so he could start figuring his sequence. Make the job a bit more interesting for you virtual-Tower controllers out there and try to avoid looking at the scope if you can. It'll make it a lot more interesting and realistic! Nick Bartolotta - ZSE Instructor, pilot at large "Just fly it on down to within a inch of the runway and let it drop in from there." - Capt. Don Lanham, ATA Airlines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:29 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:29 PM Right under the bus you go.... The DBrite is a tool. Used ALL the time, by everyone who has one. That said, I've been in one tower, 1, the number, as in singular, that had no DBrite. One guess where. Other than that, I have yet to go into a tower that doesn't have one. Rural, suburban, slow , or busy. If there's a radar feed [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with that airport, there's one in the cab. And we are using it. ALL of the time. Andrew, you are TRAINING. You may be an instructor on the training level, but you've yet to control an actual aircraft. Agree with Keith all you want. Reality says that all day every day, everyone in the tower is steady watching that DBrite. It is a tool. It is a tool that will keep your butt out of a jam. There are no controllers selecting the BINO button over the DBRITE button, I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you. Because the controller is making the pilot report a certain visual reporting point, it does not mean he's not watching him on the monitor. He's making him to do it in the event he gets busy watching someone else, or looking at the runways with ground traffic. If you can give me one example of DBRITE doing more harm than good for a qualified controller, I'm all ears. Also, tell me what "the correct way" is. I've yet to see anything in writing regarding this. It sounds to me like a controller is developing a technique, the instructor doesn't like the technique, so they make them control in the technique that works for the instructor. Talk about bad habits! If you tried to control NZY w/o a DBRITE, when it's busy, you'd be getting unplugged in moments. Tell me how you're going to do a bay transition over to Brown Field w/o using a radar reference. Where's the pointout? Oh, wait, not familiar with the bay or channel transition? Lastly, the advantage in the real world over VATSIM is that you can see the visual reporting points from the tower. Try all you like with the simulated tower view, but FS does not render all visual reporting points. It goes back to, ultimately, this is a game, with many limitations over the real world. This is one of those limitations. The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM snip....Make the job a bit more interesting for you virtual-Tower controllers out there and try to avoid looking at the scope if you can. It'll make it a lot more interesting and realistic! What is your reference for this information? The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Bartolotta 912967 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:38 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:38 PM snip....Make the job a bit more interesting for you virtual-Tower controllers out there and try to avoid looking at the scope if you can. It'll make it a lot more interesting and realistic! What is your reference for this information? It's my opinion, ref: Nick Bartolotta's in-experianced brain. Nick Bartolotta - ZSE Instructor, pilot at large "Just fly it on down to within a inch of the runway and let it drop in from there." - Capt. Don Lanham, ATA Airlines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Littlejohn Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:43 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:43 PM (edited) Right under the bus you go.... The DBrite is a tool. Used ALL the time, by everyone who has one. That said, I've been in one tower, 1, the number, as in singular, that had no DBrite. One guess where. Other than that, I have yet to go into a tower that doesn't have one. Rural, suburban, slow , or busy. If there's a radar feed [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with that airport, there's one in the cab. And we are using it. ALL of the time. I invite you to a tour of KIFP - Laughlin/Bullhead City Int'l. IIRC, there is no DBRITE there. Andrew, you are TRAINING. You may be an instructor on the training level, but you've yet to control an actual aircraft. Agree with Keith all you want. Reality says that all day every day, everyone in the tower is steady watching that DBrite. It is a tool. It is a tool that will keep your butt out of a jam. There are no controllers selecting the BINO button over the DBRITE button, I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you. Because the controller is making the pilot report a certain visual reporting point, it does not mean he's not watching him on the monitor. He's making him to do it in the event he gets busy watching someone else, or looking at the runways with ground traffic. If you can give me one example of DBRITE doing more harm than good for a qualified controller, I'm all ears. Also, tell me what "the correct way" is. I've yet to see anything in writing regarding this. It sounds to me like a controller is developing a technique, the instructor doesn't like the technique, so they make them control in the technique that works for the instructor. Talk about bad habits! If you tried to control NZY w/o a DBRITE, when it's busy, you'd be getting unplugged in moments. Tell me how you're going to do a bay transition over to Brown Field w/o using a radar reference. Where's the pointout? Oh, wait, not familiar with the bay or channel transition? Did Keith or Andrew mention anything about the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields they are referring to underlying a heavy Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace? NZY is a Naval station, as you know, and directly next to a heavily used Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airport. With the other Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields inside your Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace, it is understandable that D-BRITE would be used at all the fields you're inferring. Take that heavy airspace out of the question, and you might find yourself in the wrong. I know for a fact that up until a year ago, KMHR had no D-BRITE, and it is the most heavily used Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field in the Sacramento area. And when planes were calling in (e.g., UPS/Fedex/Airborne Express/DHL), even when they were calling in 15 out on the ILS, Tower couldn't see them, and had told them to "report GADBE inbound". By the time they reached GADBE, they got a visual on them, sequenced those in the pattern to accommodate, and cleared the freighter to land. All without D-BRITE. At a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D. Lastly, the advantage in the real world over VATSIM is that you can see the visual reporting points from the tower. Try all you like with the simulated tower view, but FS does not render all visual reporting points. It goes back to, ultimately, this is a game, with many limitations over the real world. This is one of those limitations. Unfortunately, true, but like your explanation of D-BRITE, this is also a tool, and a very helpful one, when one goes from nothing to transitioning to something used in the real world. BL. Edited July 25, 2008 at 10:45 PM by Guest Brad Littlejohn ZLA Senior Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Atkielski 985811 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:44 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:44 PM Reality says that all day every day, everyone in the tower is steady watching that DBrite. Hmm … is that anything like student pilots staring at instruments instead of looking out the window? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:46 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:46 PM I don't know. Don't have enough experience with that. The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:59 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 10:59 PM (edited) I invite you to a tour of KIFP - Laughlin/Bullhead City Int'l. IIRC, there is no DBRITE there. Oh, my bad, Brad... With a whopping 3 ops an hour, and a stifling 5 ops max for the day....... I mean seriously. I did that once at Diego Garcia. The only reason there's a tower there is for the commercial jets that boneyard there. Oh, wait, that's Kingman... Ok, so they get a single airline flight there on occasion. I mean seriously. Did Keith or Andrew mention anything about the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields they are referring to underlying a heavy Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace? NZY is a Naval station, as you know, and directly next to a heavily used Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airport. With the other Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields inside your Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace, it is understandable that D-BRITE would be used at all the fields you're inferring. Take that heavy airspace out of the question, and you might find yourself in the wrong. Ok, my bad. How about Salinas? NAS Meridian? Key Field in Meridian, Ms.? Carlsbad? Hailey, Id? Jackson Hole, Wy. San Luis Obispo? Are those examples suitable for you? The techniques are the same. The airspaces are different. I know for a fact that up until a year ago, KMHR had no D-BRITE, and it is the most heavily used Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field in the Sacramento area. And when planes were calling in (e.g., UPS/Fedex/Airborne Express/DHL), even when they were calling in 15 out on the ILS, Tower couldn't see them, and had told them to "report GADBE inbound". By the time they reached GADBE, they got a visual on them, sequenced those in the pattern to accommodate, and cleared the freighter to land. All without D-BRITE. At a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D. Hence... Up until a year ago. Are you really going to knit pick my points to try to discredit my argument? Tell me how a new student pilot, on VATSIM, is going to report a fix when they don't know how to find them w/o a GPS, or FMS. Unfortunately, true, but like your explanation of D-BRITE, this is also a tool, and a very helpful one, when one goes from nothing to transitioning to something used in the real world. HUH??? Unfortunately true? It's a fact that the software is limited. The real world picture out of the tower is not limited by software. Your last sentence has me stumped. Maybe some clarification is needed. Edited July 25, 2008 at 11:11 PM by Guest The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Conrad 989233 Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:00 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:00 PM I haven't ever, when listening to a tower feed, heard a traffic call for traffic behind someone. And most of the traffic calls I've heard are indeed given as "on final," "turning base," and so on," not given as "o-clock" positions. That, I think, is more the point. Not whether knowledge of the traffic came from the controller's eyeballs, binoculars, or radar. Bo, you left out the smiley, but I know you're poking fun. Anyhow, My flight instructor covered up every instrument on my panel and taught me how to fly without them. Each and every one of them, he taught me how to get from other sources, in at least a crude fashion. Rate of climb, altitude, airspeed. Even whether or not I was flying. Although this is truly tangental to the subject at hand. ZLA Pilot Certs make your eyes bright, your teeth white, and childbirth a pleasure. Get yours today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Doubleday Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:19 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:19 PM Bo... all I'm saying is relying solely on the DBRITE is a terrible practice... of course its good to reference - no where am I saying its not. And obviously I'm in training... what I'm saying is that I've seen a lot of bad habit developed by staring at the DBRITE while clearing aircraft to do things - which is a poor idea. What if something runs out on the runway, someone crosses a runways without clearance, a flock of birds takes flight... not something you're gonna catch on the DBRITE... all I'm saying is its poor to rely solely on that. I think I'm in the right to say this. -AJ Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:39 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:39 PM Bo... all I'm saying is relying solely on the DBRITE is a terrible practice... of course its good to reference - no where am I saying its not. And obviously I'm in training... what I'm saying is that I've seen a lot of bad habit developed by staring at the DBRITE while clearing aircraft to do things - which is a poor idea. What if something runs out on the runway, someone crosses a runways without clearance, a flock of birds takes flight... not something you're gonna catch on the DBRITE... all I'm saying is its poor to rely solely on that. I think I'm in the right to say this. -AJ I agree with you that controlling ground movement (read: anything that is on the ground) from a DBRITE is a recipe for disaster, and illogical. Using the DBRITE to separate traffic, as you said, is NOT a bad habit. In aviation, if you stare at any one thing for too long, whether pilot, or controller, is in quite poor taste. So of course using any one of your tools exclusively is a bad habit. Just an observation here: Is there no middle ground? Any gray anywhere in any of our conversations on this forum? It seems to me, and again, this is an observation, and I could be wrong, have been before; but when I say that we use DBRITE ALL of the time, I mean that we use it frequently, not literally as our only resource or tool. Do I need to be so literal as to spell it out line by line for me to make my point without someone coming in and poking a bunch of holes in my little balloon? Are we of the mentality that "if it's not in writing...." here in the forums? I deal with that all day for real, and when you start doing this all day, for real, you're going to find that coming to VATSIM, where you ARE allowed to sit down with Jose, Jack, Bacardi, and Hennessey is a recipe for a good time, not grounds for jail time. Maybe Pinot, Cabernet, and Merlot are better friends to you, but it's one of the things that I really like about this environment is that I can do exactly what I do for real, on here, with much less stress, lower stakes, and a good drink. Whatever happened to the good friends part of the equation? Have we become so "clique" that anyone outside of "our" ARTCC's have become viewed as "villians" and trying to crash the party? I'm going to have a drink..... I'll be at the Prado here in SD if anyone would like to join me. The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Doubleday Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:46 PM Posted July 25, 2008 at 11:46 PM Bo... with all do respect - you're the one who came after me about my comments (or at least is sure appeared that way). I don't need anything in writing - but just because I'm in training, seriously don't underestimate me - I don't appreciate that. I'm well aware of the limitations of cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]room ATC and radar labs compared to that of the real world... I would love to join you, unfortunately I'm on the other side of the U.S... maybe you could mail me a drink? Seriously - regards my friend, -AJ Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) Graduate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Smith Posted July 26, 2008 at 01:05 AM Author Posted July 26, 2008 at 01:05 AM *blink* *blink* Take 2. Issue 1: It would be nice if tower controllers working Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields solicited position reports from aircraft to determine where the aircraft is, if the initial position report doesn't contain explicit position information. A call of "tower, N132KT with you, landing with Charlie" did NOT result in a response such as "Cessna 2KT, Fubar Tower, enter right downwind rwy 12." How did the tower know where the plane was? How did he know he was a Cessna? Issue 2: Traffic pointouts for aircraft within the Delta (specifically, an aircraft that's in the pattern) should reference the target's location within the pattern. "Traffic turning right base is an Archer, report him in sight." It should not be "Traffic 12 to 1 o'clock, 1 mile at 1000ft is an Archer, report him in sight." There could be an aircraft on crosswind, turning downwind, the Archer on base, a guy on short final, and a guy on a 3 mile final all at the same time. From certain positions, the broken version of the traffic call could apply to any one of those 3 airplanes. My original post did not say that Delta towers _never_ use "o'clock...". The reason I suggested ignoring DBRITE is because it's hard to go from doing something the 'wrong' way (treating it as a radar facility), to learning the fundamentals of non-radar tower controlling, whilst still having a radar-ish tool available. Of course tons of towers have DBRITES in the real world, of course controllers use it heavily...but I absolutely bet those controllers could handle a full pattern of aircraft without the DBRITE if they had to. That was the reason for suggesting ignoring the DBRITE, as a way of getting back to the fundamentals, which appear to be missing. And why would it be nice to do all these things? So that pilots who fly on VATSIM now but might starting flying real world later will not have picked up a terrible habit of [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that the controller knows exactly where they are when they call. It might help them gain an understanding of how Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields operate. That's handy because a good deal of their training might happen there. It would also be nice so that when real world private/student pilots join the network for some practice, they get the same treatment that they get in real life. It's also not hard to do. If someone calls you while you're working tower without saying where they are in relation to the field, ask them to report their position. When you give traffic pointouts for planes in the pattern, use the position within the pattern as a reference. Let's leave the ARTCC/clique thing out of it, please. That is absolutely not what this post is about. This issue has happened at every single ARTCC I've ever flown in, including my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Flanary 835147 Posted July 27, 2008 at 09:36 PM Posted July 27, 2008 at 09:36 PM KS has valid points. Too many tower controllers want to be radar controllers. "TF", ZMA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Bolt Posted July 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM Posted July 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM KS has valid points. Too many tower controllers want to be radar controllers. I agree with you. That is partially due to the fact that most of the instructors on VATSIM don't differentiate between a radar point-out and a non-radar traffic advisory. You could go into ARTCCs around VATSIM and ask student rated controllers and even some C1 and C3s and they would not know the difference. If you want to get rid of this bad habit, you need to take it up with the ARTCCs instructors. The only reason I know the difference if because I fly in the real world. If you don't have that great experience/resource you can't differ between the two. Eric R. Bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Vainer 929287 Posted July 29, 2008 at 08:07 PM Posted July 29, 2008 at 08:07 PM I've spent about 45 minutes to an hour in a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] delta tower underlying C90's airspace, KARR. Using the radar feed from C90, they had a single monitor in the cab. Did the tower controller use it the entire time? Of course not. More than 98% of the time she was looking out the windows, and would glance every now and then. She also never "used" the radar, to tag guys or what not, just used it a visual reference, as said before. Another thing to go along with this topic, the "tower" mode on VRC is very unrealistic. The best thing to do is set your mode to ARTS, and enable quick look. Not completely realistic, but closer than having every tag a FDB. Here's a picture of KARR... Alex "AV" Vainer C1 Los Angeles ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 29, 2008 at 08:21 PM Posted July 29, 2008 at 08:21 PM I agree with you. That is partially due to the fact that most of the instructors on VATSIM don't differentiate between a radar point-out and a non-radar traffic advisory. The only mention of a "point-out" per the 7110, is regarding controller coordination. There is no such animal in a traffic call, or when talking to a pilot. So, I guess I could be guilty of non-differentiation (yes, my word), but it's like comparing apples and gorillas. Am I missing something here? You could go into ARTCCs around VATSIM and ask student rated controllers and even some C1 and C3s and they would not know the difference. If you want to get rid of this bad habit, you need to take it up with the ARTCCs instructors. The only reason I know the difference if because I fly in the real world. If you don't have that great experience/resource you can't differ between the two. I could also go into every ARTCC, or FIR, on VATSIM and find nary a non-radar environment. If you think you know the difference between a point-out and a non-radar traffic advisory call because you fly, you know something I don't, and I'm the one you're talking to. The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Gercke 845743 Posted July 29, 2008 at 08:35 PM Posted July 29, 2008 at 08:35 PM *blink* *blink* Take 2. Issue 1: It would be nice if tower controllers working Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D fields solicited position reports from aircraft to determine where the aircraft is, if the initial position report doesn't contain explicit position information. A call of "tower, N132KT with you, landing with Charlie" did NOT result in a response such as "Cessna 2KT, Fubar Tower, enter right downwind rwy 12." How did the tower know where the plane was? How did he know he was a Cessna? Great points. The issue is the limitations between VATSIM and the real world. Traffic calls in the pattern are based on positional reference to a fixed ground object that the locally based pilots are familiar with. VATSIM is limited in that regard. The other limiting factor is that the controllers, and pilots alike are, for a lack of a better word, transient controllers, and pilots. Meaning: The don't get up in the morning, and spend their day either flying or controlling that particular field. Limitations. Issue 2: Traffic pointouts for aircraft within the Delta (specifically, an aircraft that's in the pattern) should reference the target's location within the pattern. "Traffic turning right base is an Archer, report him in sight." It should not be "Traffic 12 to 1 o'clock, 1 mile at 1000ft is an Archer, report him in sight." There could be an aircraft on crosswind, turning downwind, the Archer on base, a guy on short final, and a guy on a 3 mile final all at the same time. From certain positions, the broken version of the traffic call could apply to any one of those 3 airplanes. All true. However, I've said, "Traffic ahead and to your left is a ____ he'll be in the base turn momentarily" from both the tower and the radar room. They both work. My original post did not say that Delta towers _never_ use "o'clock...". The reason I suggested ignoring DBRITE is because it's hard to go from doing something the 'wrong' way (treating it as a radar facility), to learning the fundamentals of non-radar tower controlling, whilst still having a radar-ish tool available. Of course tons of towers have DBRITES in the real world, of course controllers use it heavily...but I absolutely bet those controllers could handle a full pattern of aircraft without the DBRITE if they had to. That was the reason for suggesting ignoring the DBRITE, as a way of getting back to the fundamentals, which appear to be missing. This is where I was confused. The tower is not a non-radar environment. It is a visual environment. The book has different rules for the two. When you talk about non-radar, I'm going into the non-radar portion of the 7110, and digging in there. When you talk about the tower environment, I'm starting in chapter 3. Sorry to be so literal, but that's how it goes sometimes. The GX VATSIM Blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Bolt Posted July 30, 2008 at 07:00 PM Posted July 30, 2008 at 07:00 PM I was in a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D tower as will for about 1 hr yesterday. Both of the controllers said the radar was their best friend. Eric R. Bolt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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