a reminder about non-radar tower controlling

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

Meaning: The don't get up in the morning, and spend their day either flying or controlling that particular field. Limitations.

 

That's not a limitation of VATSIM, it's a deliberate choice. Nothing prevents someone from looking at a sectional and familiarizing himself with the local geography. If real controllers know the area around the field, so should VATSIM controllers. Simulation is all about realism.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

That's not a limitation of VATSIM, it's a deliberate choice. Nothing prevents someone from looking at a sectional and familiarizing himself with the local geography. If real controllers know the area around the field, so should VATSIM controllers. Simulation is all about realism.

 

I love the part... "If real controllers know the area....." THAT is funny. It doesn't matter how well a controller knows the field, if the pilot has no clue of what freeway to report over when instructed, than the controller's knowledge is useless, and it's time to go to Plan B.

[David Klain 874106]

I recall the first time I flew in to Washington National (KDCA), many, many years ago. Washington approach was a madhouse with traffic coming and going and the controller talking a mile a minute. At one point a King Air checks in on freq and the pilot speaks with a strong southern accent and very sloooooowly "Washington Approach, King Air XXXX with you at eight thousand".

 

Approach responds (quickly) "King Air XXXX roger, descend and maintain 5000, report Tyson's inbound" (Tysons is a visual fix Northwest of DCA)

 

A little while later we here "Washington Approach, King Air XXXX, we can't find Tysons on the chart, can you call the position?" instantly replied to with "King Air XXXX it's on the DCA NNN Radial, XX Miles"

 

A little later "Approach, King Air XXXX, still can't find the fix, can you help us out"

 

The controller (obviously frustrated) asks "Look out your left window, 9 o'clock. Do you see a mall with an orange roof?" When told affirmative controller directs "roger, hold over that mall, I'll get you in when able"

 

I landed, taxied and shutdown...King Air was still in a hold...

 

 

Dave

Edited August 1, 2008 at 05:03 AM by Guest

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Sounds like a VATSIM story !

[Wayne Conrad 989233]

How did the tower know where the plane was?...

 

Great points. The issue is the limitations between VATSIM and the real world. Traffic calls in the pattern are based on positional reference to a fixed ground object that the locally based pilots are familiar with. VATSIM is limited in that regard. The other limiting factor is that the controllers, and pilots alike are, for a lack of a better word, transient controllers, and pilots. Meaning: The don't get up in the morning, and spend their day either flying or controlling that particular field. Limitations.

 

There are two easy ways around this. One is to use cardinal directions instead of unpublished local landmarks:

 

"Big City Tower, Bugsmasher 123, eight North with Delta"

 

The other is to use the published visual reporting points which are printed on the TAC charts. These are often represented in the pilot's scenery:

 

"Big City Tower, Bugsmasher 123, Stadium with Echo"

 

Most controllers don't familiarize themselves with the visual reporting points in their area: They look at the radar, see where you are, and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that must be where the stadium is if you say so. How do I know this? Try calling in incorrect reporting points, and see if the tower controller catches you at it. One day I relocated Dodger Stadium all over the LA Basin...

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

haha, ive done that one time going into CRQ. Reported "LA Center N48768 over Vista inbound to land." He said where?

[Mike Evans]

Cessna 48768, Enter a right base, report Squires, and be advised, Orion has a ramp stop

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

I love the part... "If real controllers know the area....." THAT is funny. It doesn't matter how well a controller knows the field, if the pilot has no clue of what freeway to report over when instructed, than the controller's knowledge is useless, and it's time to go to Plan B.

 

It works both ways. If controllers don't know the visual reporting points, pilots can't use them, which impacts realism, because real controllers will know those reporting points (they are even on the charts).

 

Controllers have a greater obligation to know visual landmarks because they handle traffic in the area regularly, whereas pilots might simply be visiting from a long distance away and might not recognize the local reporting points.

 

Many visual reporting points are represented in MSFS scenery, if you look for them. They also often have VPxxx waypoints [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to them, which you can spot on your moving-map GPS as well. Doing everything in a way that avoids actually looking out windows is highly unrealistic, especially for VFR.

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

Cessna 48768, Enter a right base, report Squires, and be advised, Orion has a ramp stop

 

lol. rgr that but we are going to Grey Eagle.

[Mike Evans]

Cessna 48768, Enter a right base, report Squires, and be advised, Orion has a ramp stop

 

lol. rgr that but we are going to Grey Eagle.

 

LOL, I couldn't remember which one it was.. I got my PVT at Pinnacle

[Rich Lee]

Cessna 48768, Enter a right base, report Squires, and be advised, Orion has a ramp stop

 

Amazing you knew about Squires. The first time I heard it in real life from TWR I replied "report what? say again" and my instructor when laughing really hard while pointing out that big chunk of concrete a few miles ahead of me.

 

Sorry Keith for hijacking your thread, couldn't resist.

[James McMannamy]

I hope some of the other real world guys agree with me on this post . . .

 

The culture in VATSIM controlling is much, much more strict than in the real world, and there is a lot more focus on 'universal' rules rather than local SOPs. In reality, every controller does things different within the same facility, and every facility has its own procedures within the US ATC system. I've been certified at 2 different cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers, and 1 cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C tower, so I hope that qualifies me to make these statements.

 

I graduated from UND a little over two years ago. There, they prepared me for a world where you get decertified for using less than perfect phraseology, the tower radar fails every 45 minutes, and pilots do what you tell them to perfectly every time.

 

Now that I've been a controller at several places, I've noticed that some facilities care about phraseology, and some don't so much. I've never seen a controller decertified for poor phraseology (not saying it has never happened, but I've never heard of it), my tower radar has failed for 2 minutes in my entire career, and pilots sometimes do the opposite of what you tell them just to drive you nuts.

 

The point is, nothing comes close to real world controlling. There was a news clip recently where they interviewed a CTI student about whether or not he was prepared to go to a busy tower. He said he could walk in and do it with no problem . . . for those who have seen it, I bet $10 he washes out within a year of showing up at his first tower, what do you think?. But, sometimes, other new hires become superstars and check out in record time.

 

I have CTOs in 2 non-radar facilities, one of which I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned beacon codes if I wanted to watch airplanes on the radar, and provide radar traffic advisories (a non radar tower can have a certified radar display, which all of mine have), and another where we didn't touch the keyboard. Both were cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers. Some controllers give o'clock positions, some say "behind you" or "ahead and to the right".

 

So, generally speaking, let's try to not be so black and white about everything, eh? If it doesn't say that you can't do something in the .65, someone out there probably does it, whether it seems okay or not.

[Brad Littlejohn]

I hope some of the other real world guys agree with me on this post . . .

 

The culture in VATSIM controlling is much, much more strict than in the real world, and there is a lot more focus on 'universal' rules rather than local SOPs. In reality, every controller does things different within the same facility, and every facility has its own procedures within the US ATC system. I've been certified at 2 different cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towers, and 1 cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C tower, so I hope that qualifies me to make these statements.

 

I definitely have to agree here! Even when on a tour of NCT a few years ago, the ATM there said that we were more strict with phraseology than they were there! IIRC, we showed him a demo of a flight from LAS or LAX to SFO, and he was rightfully impressed, because it was TEXTBOOK all the way!

 

So, generally speaking, let's try to not be so black and white about everything, eh? If it doesn't say that you can't do something in the .65, someone out there probably does it, whether it seems okay or not.

 

I can see where both would come into play (being black and white/strict and allowing more technique). It's a CYA type of thing, but to our advantage, we don't have a vFAA or vNTSB breathing down our necks when a crash or deal happens. So I can see both. There was a good long debate over style/technique vs. textbook at ZLA a couple years ago, and this does remind me of shades of it..

 

BL.