What is happening to Atlanta?

[Ryan Strad 827369]

I know the feeling. Its ridiculous that an ARTCC implements certain training/certification requirements when it cannot provide adequate training in order for controllers to reach those standards in a reasonable amount of time. I think someone higher on the food chain needs to review the situation?

 

Also, due to my posts on these forums, I've been informed that some of the staff will no longer train me at ZTL. The only person who will train me is Alan the TA furthermore limiting the amount of time it takes for me to get my certifications back. I find that ridicioulous.

 

I also agree with Stephen that someone at VATUSA or VATSIM needs to review the situation.

[Tom Solon]

Well, let's hope ZTL gets more controllers up. It only benefits the ARTCC to train as many ATC as possible. Good luck...

[Thomas Mathieu 998318]

I agree that VATSIM should have a look at the situation. "Decertifying" controllers from positions they once worked freely is bad unless those controllers have major complaints. My experience with controllers at Atlanta has been awesome and professional.

 

When an ARTCC ATM comes in and makes sweeping changes that ultimately changes traffic and member satisfaction (see original post), the VATSIM Board should take notice.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Scott,

 

Yes there are some guys who love to control at the smaller minor facilities and I'm sure the pilots appreciate this. However, most of us, but not all joined the Atlanta ARTCC to control at KATL.

 

Yes we can still control CHA, GSO, or GSP but last month KGSP had zero planes and KATL had 207 planes. Why would we want to sit online at an airport with no traffic now when we have been controlling at KATL for years?

 

Two words: Don Fiveash.

 

BL.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Scott,

 

You don't need to say a word. It's a done deal. All of the certs were revoked and all controllers have been made to re-qualify from the ground up; that's a fact. At this point, you saying anything to try to defend ZTL's actions is like trying to defend George Bush and his Iraq war campaign. Fairly useless at this point when the evidence reveals the truth.

 

Let me pose a question. Since we like to pretend this is the real world....

 

If an ATM came into an FAA facility, and said, "Effective immediately, all qualified controllers are no longer qualified, and you must re-cert from the ground up." What would be the repercussions of that? Since ZTL is trying to go ultra-realistic, why implement (can't call it DUPLICATE, really) something that would never be done in the real world?

 

If speaking out is "complaining", as you'd like to put it, than Ronald Reagan should have shut up about that whole Berlin Wall/ Communism thing, MLK needs to shut up, and move to the back of the bus, the Dhali Lama needs to shut up and let China do as they see fit to his people in Tibet, and the list can go on and on... The point being; I have a voice. I will use it. I will use it, along with action to affect change. I'm sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

 

Two words: Don Fiveash.

 

BL.

 

And one word for you:

 

CHOICE.

 

It was his choice to control SMO exclusively. The staff did not limit him to that position, nor, revoke a certification once it was earned, thus limiting him to that position exclusively.

[Brad Littlejohn]

 

Two words: Don Fiveash.

 

BL.

 

And one word for you:

 

CHOICE.

 

It was his choice to control SMO exclusively. The staff did not limit him to that position, nor, revoke a certification once it was earned, thus limiting him to that position exclusively.

 

True, it was FH's choice to control at SMO exclusively, but that also proves my point. He went beyond his way to turn an airport that received little to no traffic at all into a place where at various times had more traffic than the 3 biggest airports in ZLA. There is no reason why the same could not be duplicated elsewhere.

 

Just because ATL is the biggest place in ZTL doesn't mean that any smaller or other airport can't be made the same, or better.

 

BL.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

 

True, it was FH's choice to control at SMO exclusively, but that also proves my point. He went beyond his way to turn an airport that received little to no traffic at all into a place where at various times had more traffic than the 3 biggest airports in ZLA. There is no reason why the same could not be duplicated elsewhere.

 

Just because ATL is the biggest place in ZTL doesn't mean that any smaller or other airport can't be made the same, or better.

 

BL.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the context of this discussion. These guys want to control where they had qualified to control. The certs were revoked. Not because they weren't online enough, not because the were VC's, not for any other reason than the staff felt it within their rights to revoke certs, and make everyone re-cert under their new policy. Unfortunately, this is not anywhere in VATUSA policy.

 

They weren't first given an opportunity to do an OTS to keep the cert intact, but simply had the cert revoked.

 

Let's take a fat roster like ZLA's, and install a new staff. Effective immediately, ALL certs that you have, Brad, are null and void. You may attend one of two cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es that will be taught via TeamSpeak, then set up a time to do an OTS with the only instructor that they have in the facility (that would be the TA) and re-gain your certs one by one. If you are not cert'ed by the new TA, you may not get on and control at any position. Read it for yourself. It's all in their forums. If you need a link, let me know.

 

Don't tell me that you wouldn't be irritated, too.

[Andrew Rogers 913862]

[removed my comment]

Edited August 7, 2008 at 12:16 AM by Guest

[Scott Johnston 890281]

Yeah yeah, Bo. Whatever you say.

Edited August 7, 2008 at 12:08 AM by Guest

[Gary Millsaps 830104]

Gentlemen,

 

As much as an inherent priviledge exists to post one's thoughts and opinions here, that priviledge comes with the responsibilitiy to speak with truth and knowledge. Please do not engage in spurious rumor mongering and fanning of embers.

 

VATUSA is well aware of the situation in vZTL...

[Brad Littlejohn]

 

True, it was FH's choice to control at SMO exclusively, but that also proves my point. He went beyond his way to turn an airport that received little to no traffic at all into a place where at various times had more traffic than the 3 biggest airports in ZLA. There is no reason why the same could not be duplicated elsewhere.

 

Just because ATL is the biggest place in ZTL doesn't mean that any smaller or other airport can't be made the same, or better.

 

BL.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the context of this discussion. These guys want to control where they had qualified to control. The certs were revoked. Not because they weren't online enough, not because the were VC's, not for any other reason than the staff felt it within their rights to revoke certs, and make everyone re-cert under their new policy. Unfortunately, this is not anywhere in VATUSA policy.

 

And that is a totally different point than the one that I was trying to make. I wasn't even talking about their certs being revoked; I was talking about the fact that just because one can't control ATL, there is no reason that another airport in ZTL could be made to be just as big as ATL; case in point, SMO.

 

Please don't [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that because I'm not talking along the main points of this thread, that I don't understand what is going on. Because I do.

 

 

Let's take a fat roster like ZLA's, and install a new staff. Effective immediately, ALL certs that you have, Brad, are null and void. You may attend one of two cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es that will be taught via TeamSpeak, then set up a time to do an OTS with the only instructor that they have in the facility (that would be the TA) and re-gain your certs one by one. If you are not cert'ed by the new TA, you may not get on and control at any position. Read it for yourself. It's all in their forums. If you need a link, let me know.

 

Don't tell me that you wouldn't be irritated, too.

 

Bo, I don't know where you were, but here's an update for you. This happened at ZLA, circa 2002 - 2003. I'm pretty sure (in fact, I'm positive) that the entire discussions and multiple threads about it are still available here and at ZLA's forum. Heh.. there are still people here that went through it! And we had just as big a roster as we do now. To borrow a quote from Anthony (as you so have in your sig), "a little research should provide you with that answer."

 

BL.

 

P.S. After the certs were revoked at ZLA, 5 tests taking no more than 3 minutes each got me each and every single cert back. No grandfathering in at that.

[Ryan Strad 827369]

Gentlemen,

 

As much as an inherent priviledge exists to post one's thoughts and opinions here, that priviledge comes with the responsibilitiy to speak with truth and knowledge. Please do not engage in spurious rumor mongering and fanning of embers.

 

VATUSA is well aware of the situation in vZTL...

 

Gary,

 

Does VATUSA plan on doing anything about this situation?

 

Thanks

[Gary Millsaps 830104]

Patience gr[Mod - Happy Thoughts]hopper...patience!

[Stephen Sculley-Beaman]

Bo, couldn't have said it better. Exactly.

[Thomas Mathieu 998318]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the context of this discussion. These guys want to control where they had qualified to control. The certs were revoked. Not because they weren't online enough, not because the were VC's, not for any other reason than the staff felt it within their rights to revoke certs, and make everyone re-cert under their new policy. Unfortunately, this is not anywhere in VATUSA policy.

 

They weren't first given an opportunity to do an OTS to keep the cert intact, but simply had the cert revoked.

 

Let's take a fat roster like ZLA's, and install a new staff. Effective immediately, ALL certs that you have, Brad, are null and void. You may attend one of two cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es that will be taught via TeamSpeak, then set up a time to do an OTS with the only instructor that they have in the facility (that would be the TA) and re-gain your certs one by one. If you are not cert'ed by the new TA, you may not get on and control at any position. Read it for yourself. It's all in their forums. If you need a link, let me know.

 

Don't tell me that you wouldn't be irritated, too.

 

Do I recall a similar situation in South America Division recently??

[Ricardo Sosa 979914]

I find it very odd that the person who started this thread only has 17 hours as a pilot and claims that he's been flying for the last 8 weeks. Really? It seems to me that this thread was started unnecessarily and that it was all planned to bash about ZTL, it's controllers, and the Staff.

 

I find various things stated here to be false. For example, the fact that Ryan said that ALL the controllers lost their solo certificationss and were denied the privilage to control. I personally never lost any solo certifications when it came time to recertity controllers. I simply made a request to be recertified and it was done, without losing ANY solo certifications, and I was back to controlling. We were never denied the privilage to control, if we were already certified. In fact, there was a Transition Letter mailed out and posted on the ZTL ARTCC website saying that the controllers would need to be recertified. On the letter, it clearly stated everything that needed to be done to be certified on the new procedures. If you ACTUALLY READ THE LETTER, then you would know that you needed to e-mail the ATM saying that you READ the letter. If you didn't read the letter, then you would not have known that you had to e-mail the ATM. If you did not send the e-mail by a certain date, your certifications WOULD be taken away. If you DID send the e-mail, even if you were not recertified yet, you could still stay controlling simply by the fact that you acknowledged that you needed to be recertified. Once again, NOBODY'S CERTIFICATIONS WERE TAKEN AWAY, as long as you read a simple letter, you were good to go. If you were simply too lazy to read the letter, did not have time to read the letter (which you had plenty of time, a time-frame consisting of months), or simply didn't care about reading the letter and doing what was required to keep your certifications, then your certifications WOULD BE TAKEN AWAY. If you fall into the last 3 things stated, it is YOUR FAULT and YOURS ONLY that you lost your certifications.

 

Do not blame others for your mistakes, and especially, do not lie to everybody else here and tell them that you were cheated out of your certifications when it was all your fault.

 

Finally, I find no reason why the public needs to find out what is going on "behind the scenes" and especially no reason why everybody else who has nothing to do with the issue is being informed about what is happening. This simply discourages others, pilots more specifically, from flying in the ZTL ARTCC airspace.

 

If you have problems with someone, do not tell everybody else about it on a public forum. Take it to management through private e-mail. If I had problems with John Smith, I would not tell the whole world that I hate John Smith and everybody else should hate John Smith because he did this, this, and that to me.

[Wade Williams 877539]

These guys want to control where they had qualified to control. The certs were revoked. Not because they weren't online enough, not because the were VC's, not for any other reason than the staff felt it within their rights to revoke certs, and make everyone re-cert under their new policy.

 

As I said earlier, this happens all over VATUSA. It has happened at multiple ARTCC's in the past and it will continue to happen in the future.

 

Don't think for a minute that most, if not all, of the ATM's don't clear their plan with VATUSA before decertifying a group of controllers.

 

In order to stay certified, I once had to re-take every written test I had already taken and p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed. Rather than wasting any energy complaining about it, I just buckled down and retook the tests. Two days later I was fully re-certified again some 3 months before the cutoff. The same was not true of some who complained about it and ended up being de-certified.

 

It's a fact of life - if you switch ARTCC's you will have to be checked out on everything again. If you stay at one ARTCC long enough, eventually changes will come along that require you to re-certify again.

[Dan McCabe 898634]

OK...lets make this clear for all.

 

We added some new procedures at ZTL...during the Joe Caban era. We fully finishing implementing them as soon as I took over for Joe as ATM. Some guys hadn't been around in months then randomly appeared again ready to control. In the first draft of the controller wide procedure change notification, the only thing required of the controller was to reply to the email saying you had read the changes in the binder. By doing that, the person's certs were extended and life was good. After that, we told our guys they had to get with an instructor so the could quickly go over the changes and then take a quick recurrent OTS, they were given a few months notice of this policy's taking effect. As far as taking the OTS with the TA causing a problem, Alan is online EVERY SINGLE NIGHT...look at his VATSIM stats. The people who are complaining about these policies are the ones who have put this off until after the deadline, then decided to complain. A LARGE number of folks finished the recurrent stuff quickly and without incident.

 

We changed things around for a few simple reasons...

 

1.) New sceneries are showing runway 10/28...we want to be ready for the pilots who want to use it. So we added the procedures to USE 10/28.

 

2.) We want to open CLT more. A lot of people like CLT, so we want to provide the same entertainment to those folks as our ATL crowd.

 

3.) We have a lot of people who need to be trained beyond the S1/S3 level. We have TWENTY (20) training sessions scheduled this week alone. We have 5 active instructors on the roster, and they are working. Our people are busting their butts to finish up.

 

4.) The pilots love realism. This doesn't mean we need to bring the real ATL to VATSIM, but we can sure make it sound good. Perception is 90% of the VATSIM battle.

 

5.) We added/changed things based on feedback from our pilot users. Read our feedback after a major event...its mountains and mountains of positives.

 

The problem here is, people are reading into things that they don't have the full picture on. There are only a couple on our roster that this recert process even effects. The majority of our roster has either complied with the simple changes or they are OBS and S1 people...and I think its evident that they are getting trained like mad.

 

We aren't here to make life tough on people, just to keep it fair across the board. If one person has to learn something, everybody needs to learn it...basic rules of fair behavior. If anybody has any questions about what we are doing, please feel free to contact me via PM or email...but lets not drag this debate into something that it doesn't need to be...personal attacks on people who work their butts off to make everything fair and fun for everybody.

 

You can't please everybody, and great things aren't built instantly. Please give us a chance, we're trying awfully hard.

[Justin A. Martin]

Very well said Dan.

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

Dan,

 

I for one appreciate your candid explanation about the internal works of Atlanta and I can say that I think all ARTCC's want to see your numbers cranked up to levels you had before. But just like any company that is "restructuring", the minuta should NOT be public information, but the "PR Guy" will give out updates.

 

I feel that internal matters should NOT be aired in a public forum (like this thread), as Atlanta has a great potential, and as we're all FRIENDLY neighbors on the VATSIM network, and that we have a common goal (outstanding ATC and tons of pilots).

 

Let us all stop bickering about "what it was/used to be" and focus on the pilots that are looking forward to talking to ATC, and also seeing a sky full of other aircraft.

 

In my opinion, we should work GLOBALLY as a team of ATC, rather than the attitude of measuring certain male genitalia, as the former just gives the moderators something to lock.

 

To cents over minus the CRV tax!

 

Cheers!

 

 

depend on us

[ARIEL MAISONET 811274]

I find it very odd that the person who started this thread only has 17 hours as a pilot and claims that he's been flying for the last 8 weeks. Really? It seems to me that this thread was started unnecessarily and that it was all planned to bash about ZTL, it's controllers, and the Staff.

 

I find various things stated here to be false. For example, the fact that Ryan said that ALL the controllers lost their solo certificationss and were denied the privilage to control. I personally never lost any solo certifications when it came time to recertity controllers. I simply made a request to be recertified and it was done, without losing ANY solo certifications, and I was back to controlling. We were never denied the privilage to control, if we were already certified. In fact, there was a Transition Letter mailed out and posted on the ZTL ARTCC website saying that the controllers would need to be recertified. On the letter, it clearly stated everything that needed to be done to be certified on the new procedures. If you ACTUALLY READ THE LETTER, then you would know that you needed to e-mail the ATM saying that you READ the letter. If you didn't read the letter, then you would not have known that you had to e-mail the ATM. If you did not send the e-mail by a certain date, your certifications WOULD be taken away. If you DID send the e-mail, even if you were not recertified yet, you could still stay controlling simply by the fact that you acknowledged that you needed to be recertified. Once again, NOBODY'S CERTIFICATIONS WERE TAKEN AWAY, as long as you read a simple letter, you were good to go. If you were simply too lazy to read the letter, did not have time to read the letter (which you had plenty of time, a time-frame consisting of months), or simply didn't care about reading the letter and doing what was required to keep your certifications, then your certifications WOULD BE TAKEN AWAY. If you fall into the last 3 things stated, it is YOUR FAULT and YOURS ONLY that you lost your certifications.

 

Do not blame others for your mistakes, and especially, do not lie to everybody else here and tell them that you were cheated out of your certifications when it was all your fault.

 

Finally, I find no reason why the public needs to find out what is going on "behind the scenes" and especially no reason why everybody else who has nothing to do with the issue is being informed about what is happening. This simply discourages others, pilots more specifically, from flying in the ZTL ARTCC airspace.

 

If you have problems with someone, do not tell everybody else about it on a public forum. Take it to management through private e-mail. If I had problems with John Smith, I would not tell the whole world that I hate John Smith and everybody else should hate John Smith because he did this, this, and that to me.

 

Ricardo

 

Do you have the names of those Center and Approach controllers that retained their certifications as you call? I am not talking about those 10 that got recerted on a fast track even before Alan (the new TA) came in, I mean the others old members.

 

from above:

>>>I find various things stated here to be false. For example, the fact that Ryan said that ALL the controllers lost their solo certificationss and were denied the privilage to control. I personally never lost any solo certifications when it came time to recertity controllers. <<<

 

Of course you didn’t lose anything, because you were certified to work “Delâ€

Edited August 7, 2008 at 05:37 AM by Guest

[Alan Hensley 950569]

What is happening to Atlanta?

 

Last seven to eight weeks I don’t see them offering ATC services . I don’t like to fly without ATC and I love to fly Atlanta.

 

Let me know if you plan to open soon guys, please !

 

Ivan

 

Forgive me Ivan but I am curious. How would you know if Atlanta has been on line and how can you say you don't like to fly without ATC and love to fly Atlanta if you have not been online flying for over TWO years now? I think there has been ATC on within that time

[David Reimer 913748]

Can someone give the accurate amount of hours it takes to re-certify?

 

It sounds like to me a couple of people are P/Oed about having to train again after being certified for years (Their pride is hurt) that they are fussing in the main VATUSA Forum instead of respecting the leadership's decision or using email.

[Andrew Doubleday]

There are controllers controlling in Atlanta. I see them on BHM tower and APP all the time.

 

Kudos to those gentlemen for just getting to the business of controlling while they work on meeting the ARTCC requirements.

 

This situation is not uncommon in the world of VATUSA. Every ATM that implements changes which require re-certification ends up with a group that's willing to do the work and a group that's not. And thus it goes until the next ARTCC drama.

 

Story of my experience... couldn't have said it better WW... thank you.

 

Also, grandfathering in policy flat-out doesn't work on VATSIM (I learned that the hard way as well). As far as the comments go towards it not being realistic to decertify people in the FAA... well, where in the FAA do you have m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] groups of controllers stepping out and complaining (as on these very forums) about new policy being implemented? They suck it up and deal with it because everyone knows what happened back in 1981... As much as I may disagree with half of what the FAA does, still... lets put this in perspective, please.

 

 

Dan, also appreciate your comments, no reason you should have ever had to come here in the first place to post them. As I've said in your forums previously, best of luck to you guys. I couldn't make it happen at Chicago... I sure hope like hell you guys can there. A little realism in procedures never hurt anyone... and it sure as hell is 90 percent perception, excellent comment. It's a shame some people are so closed minded about it... shut 'em out and surround yourself with motivated people that support you and you're ideas. That's all I've got...

 

 

-AJ