Radar Vectors from Tower

[Greg Marcoux 980029]

Haha,

 

Lets have people like Nate who actually know what they're talking about answer questions like these instead of amateurs back tracking everytime they're corrected by actual controllers and trying to say this is what I mean. Any instructor will tell you that PRIMACY is the biggest contributing factor to what students learn. People posting the wrong information are usually what the students see first and will remember the first post they read rather than the last one which was actually correct.

[Justin A. Martin]

Pick your words carefully and politely next time Greg.

 

Oh, and I'm glad that just because I'm not a real-world controller (yet) that I'm an amatuer?? I'm glad you know so much, Greg... Please, keep those comments to yourself next time.

[Marc Glorioso 810788]

Lets have people like Nate who actually know what they're talking about answer questions like these

 

Nate, are you checked out yet?

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

Let me clarify

 

I should have not said aircraft generally. 90% of the time vectors with the tower are given to VFR aircraft exiting the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace. As far as helicopters go, they are usually on VFR, reference point flight plans; however, IFR helicopters are not uncommon and, if you have a RADAR QUALIFIED TOWER (not just DBRITE) then you can give vectors to these aircraft.

 

Justin

 

Correct, there are Radar Qualified towers that will radar identify you. Example is Seattle. They normally dont give any vectors but you are under radar with them.

 

Example how they they do it. Two of the guys at ZSE flew over SEATAC.

http://users.easystreet.com/n7ape/KSEA_TWR-Jul-08-2007-0100Z.mp3

[Nate Johns]

Lets have people like Nate who actually know what they're talking about answer questions like these

 

Nate, are you checked out yet?

 

As of 7/17/08, affirm. CPC, Southeast Speciality, ZAB.

 

~Nate

 

PS - For the record... I am no terminal expert by any means. I only state what I have made observations of in the terminal environment. If any swivel heads out there know better, I am all about the learning.

[James McMannamy]

It wasn't too long ago in this very forum I posted about how every facility has different procedures, and the norm for one is completely different than another. I was talking to some controllers at different facilities last week about their departure procedures. What we do at my tower is totally different than a lot of other towers. In fact, out of 18 people at combined tower/tracon facilities, mine was the only one that still threw strips down drop tubes to the tracon. A lot of towers are actually responsible that the aircraft tags up properly before switching to departure (not necessary at mine because of the strip dropping).

 

Anyway, to the subject of this thread: If the radar in the tower is a certified display, and an SOP/LOA exists with the controlling TRACON, then local controllers can radar identify and vector airplanes, whether they're IFR or VFR. There aren't always a lot of reasons to vector IFR airplanes, but sometimes they come up, and it's perfectly legal to do it. Some towers have more restrictive LOAs which allow the tower to use a certified radar display for other functions.

 

At SMO, we couldn't use the radar to separate arriving IFR airplanes (SoCal Tracon had that responsibility), but SMO tower was responsible for providing departing airplane separation. ATW tower doesn't provide anything but runway and visual separation for IFR departures; GRB Tracon is responsible for departing and arriving aircraft separation (by [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning diverging headings, time restrictions, etc...)

 

At my combined tower/tracon facility, the tower is delegated airspace and is responsible for the airplanes in it. If I want to use more, I can use a pointout with approach (and they sometimes pointout airplanes in local's airspace). I've given vectors for slow moving IFR departures out of the way of fast moving IFR departures to speed up the operation and not give departure control a deal (local control can use visual separation, the controllers in the tracon can't).

 

-Terminal controller's view

[Andrew Doubleday]

In fact, out of 18 people at combined tower/tracon facilities, mine was the only one that still threw strips down drop tubes to the tracon.

 

Interesting... I was at ROC a couple years ago and they still drop the strips down to the radar room (along with other surprises, my favorite being a list of everyone's chinese order up in the cab! ) as well... I think its pretty cool actually.

 

I guess a lot of places are starting to scan strips now?

 

 

 

-AJ

[James McMannamy]

Yeah, it seems like they either scan them now, or departure doesn't even use strips. When I was in high school, I visited SYR, they used the strips, then in college I came back, and they had some automation where the departure strip printed out downstairs. I think STARS has the ability to show a flight plan electronically on a screen, so I don't think they even need them now. When I was at SMO and later ATW, the departure control already had a copy of the strip when I called for a release. . . GRB Tracon doesn't have a copy of the GRB departures, but they get it when I throw the strip down the tube with the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned heading and all that other good stuff.

 

I was working local last weekend, I messed up and launched a guy going to ORD who was supposed to be 20 miles in trail with an ORD departure off ATW too early, so I threw a peanut down the tube to make up for it. I've heard that it has been clogged with sandwiches, garbage, and anything else that will fit in the hole. They have a 1" nut in the tower now to throw down if anything gets stuck.

[Nate Johns]

ABQ still uses drop tubes for their departures.

 

~Nate

[Joe Caban 844086]

it all depends on the facility... There are Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B towers that do give radar vectors within their airspace or within their designated areas of responsibility; there are even towers that take over full departure and approach control responsibilities on the mid...it just depends.

 

On VATSIM, most facilities prohibit this due to the training structure and where radar control falls within it. Everytime I've seen a controller on VATSIM give vectors from the tower, he was a traffic hungry newbie who knew he was breaking the rules type.

[Alan Hensley 950569]

"They have a 1" nut in the tower now to throw down if anything gets stuck."

 

We used a ball bearing. It you were on the receiving end, you had to duck.

[Lance Hutchinson 960395]

Oh, and I'm glad that just because I'm not a real-world controller (yet) that I'm an amatuer??

 

Yep.

 

Amateur = one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession.

[Jason Baker 1028693]

Let me try to get this:

 

OP asked/ blamed.

Controller answered and was ignored.

Nobody ever got the hint?

 

"They have a 1" nut in the tower now to throw down if anything gets stuck."

Thats funny right there! I heard some have a bunch of nuts in the tower and stuff gets stuck all the time.

[Eric Shank Van Eenige 9979]

Oh, and I'm glad that just because I'm not a real-world controller (yet) that I'm an amatuer??

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional

 

"Professional" = "One who is paid to perform work" or "One who is an expert in their field"

"Amateur" = "Everyone else"

 

You can be an amateur, but still be very competent at offering information. It all depends on whether the information you offer is actually researched, or if you maybe know a little bit of information and start pulling things out of your stabilizer.

 

I'm a librarian IRL, so I'm an expert on research, and a professional. I'm an airplane enthusiast, who intends to get a real flying license one day, but I'm a long way from being a professional.

 

The "you" in my post is a general "you", rather than a specific Justin "you".

[Justin A. Martin]

Well that makes it a tad better But, the definition I was looking at was this one

 

a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity

[Justin A. Martin]

Oh, and, I wasn't looking at your post, Eric... I was looking at this one

 

Haha,

 

Lets have people like Nate who actually know what they're talking about answer questions like these instead of amateurs back tracking everytime they're corrected by actual controllers and trying to say this is what I mean. Any instructor will tell you that PRIMACY is the biggest contributing factor to what students learn. People posting the wrong information are usually what the students see first and will remember the first post they read rather than the last one which was actually correct.

 

And seems like it was directed at me and the amateur felt like the version above, that's all... it's no biggie

[Garry Morris 920567]

Thats funny right there! I heard some have a bunch of nuts in the tower and stuff gets stuck all the time.

 

hehe! Was lucky enough to get into the new Phoenix Tower a few years ago. They had a woman on DEL (I think I heard she was normally a Chicago Approach controller on "vacation") that was strolling around the cab meowing in between issuing clearances. Meanwhile, various controllers were calling out "take my picture!" and making faces. This was made all the more cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic after we got a "this is a very serious place of business, do not speak or disrupt anything and stand over in that spot quietly!" lecture from one of the admins before being taken up.

 

Looking east over Terminal 4:

 

Looking west at the Phoenix skyline:

 

More detailed shot of the typical controller's workstation (notice the radar screen - not sure what type it was):

 

Close-in of the Radar - (apologies for the jitter, I was using a 300mm zoom hand held at a very slow shutter speed - still can't believe they let me haul a DSLR and a full bag of gl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] in there hehe):

[James McMannamy]

Looks like a STARS tower radar