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ASDE-X Monitoring on VATSIM - Really Necessary?


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Anthony,

 

You keep saying, "we must do things JUST like real controllers, or it isn't simulation", and then COMPLETELY IGNORE the very valid reasons why were are not in a position replicate CERTAIN THINGS on this network. Yet, when presented with that evidence, you say you don't know or care how ATC works on this network, and keep bleating the same message.

 

I am 100% serious when I say that your posts have completely blown me away. I have never seen anything like it in my life. For a while, it seemed like you were actually trying to behave, but once again, I find myself wishing that I owned a firearm.

 

You win, I formally give up on trying to help you understand.

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You're missing my point. Is this at every major airport in US Airspace?

 

You obviously have missed the replies stating which airports have it and which ones don't...I suggest you read back a little

 

Look to me its very simple, if the airport has ASDE-X on the airport diagram I will follow it. I strive for realism and as a pilot if I land at an airport that has this I will leave my transponder on. That to me is what I am trying to get across here in this forum post...I would like to see ARTCC's honor the fact that pilots would like realism and if they feel like leaving their transponder on the ground at a ASDE-X airport then let em!!

Matt Bromback

Air Traffic Manager

N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR

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Things are oh so much more simple in our online environment. Sometimes, despite the cries from various corners, realism may suffer.

 

Our Code of Conduct, which we all agreed to on signup, gives the final call in this regard to the controller. If the controller asks you to set your transponder to a particular setting then this is what should be done.

Norman

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ATL, BDL, CLT, DTW, FLL, HOU, IAD, JFK, LAX, MCO, MKE, ORD, PHX, PVD, SDF, SEA, STL

 

Anyone suggesting simulating ASDE at any airport other than these well that kinda defeats the purpose...

 

Actually, Wyatt, this is kind of what I was saying... but it really brings up a new point. If I'm working DC_CTR and I have 5 aircraft in the air and one on the ground on DCA, I'm going to ask him to squawk altitude on the ground so I can see him with a mini-data tag. I know this isn't really considered "simulating" ASDE but it helps me out to see the aircraft regardless of airport. I actually recall Joe Caban explaining why vZTL uses it, and he said (and please correct me if I'm wrong Joe... this is just from memory because I can't find the topic) that it's used not only to simulate ASDE X, but for controllers sake. What I got from that was if there is an aircraft at GSO and GSO_TWR is on, still have him squawk altitude. Again, I could be totally wrong about that.

 

Anyway, my point is it's not always about making it so unbelievably realistic. Realism is a very important aspect that I care about deeply on VATSIM, but that doesn't mean do something, regardless of effect, just because the real-world does... that's all... and like I've 100000000 times, it's just my 2 cents...

 

Anyway, I would never get mad if I'm flying and I'm told to squawk normal or standby or whatever. This is VATSIM. Realism is cool and all but there are far more important aspects to the network.

 

Justin!!

Justin A. Martin

Training Administrator

VATSIM Miami ARTCC

http://www.zmaartcc.net

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Well, that's a controller's problem, not mine. Or is it also okay for a pilot to refuse to squawk Mode C because the transponder in his sim refuses to do it? If the pilot cannot squawk Mode C, he needs to stay out of airspace that requires it, period (whether he cannot do it because of his sim or for other reasons).

 

Just a somewhat off-topic question... what can you tell me about the proper procedures for filing and flying under IFR without an operating transponder (real world)? Do you think it's possible? Why/why not?

Jim Johnson

VP - Membership (VATGOV12)

j.johnson(at)vatsim.net

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Do real world Center/ARTCC/TRACON controllers operate the local tower?

 

Once again, don't know, don't care. That's an ATC issue, not a pilot issue. I have a frequency, I tune to it, I talk to the controller. Just as a controller talks to me without worrying about whether or not I have an instrument rating (even in real life, it's not the controller's problem).

 

 

Wait, isn't your argument " If they do it in the real world"? He just asked you a simple question and your answer is that " Once again, don't know, don't care.". Doesn't that make any argument you make about how its done in the real world useless? Some very good controllers have answered your posts and you simply don't want to hear it. Why post then?

854300

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You're missing my point. Is this at every major airport in US Airspace?

 

You obviously have missed the replies stating which airports have it and which ones don't...I suggest you read back a little

 

Look to me its very simple, if the airport has ASDE-X on the airport diagram I will follow it. I strive for realism and as a pilot if I land at an airport that has this I will leave my transponder on. That to me is what I am trying to get across here in this forum post...I would like to see ARTCC's honor the fact that pilots would like realism and if they feel like leaving their transponder on the ground at a ASDE-X airport then let em!!

 

And if I tell you to turn your transponder off, I suggest that you do it, because if I am controlling that airport as an approach/Departure, or Center controller, and I have numerous aircraft at that airport, you are interfering with the service I can provide to other aircraft on the ground. That is the problem. If I have 15 planes at LAX, another 10 - 20 coming in to LAX, another 10 flying around SoCal, 8 going to LAS, and 3 of those 15 at LAX call for clearance, they are going to expect some seriously logn delays because I will not have the time to zoom in to find them in the clutter of blips on my screen with transponders on to find them.

 

Plus, Like I had said a number of times over, this is going to be an ARTCC specific thing. Not every major airport (read: Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B/C) in US Airspace uses ASDE-X. Until then, it will not be a policy that VATUSA will mandate or enforce. For example, MSP, BOS, MIA, DEN, SLC, SFO, PHX, SAN, LAS, MSY, MEM, STL, all of which are Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports, do NOT use ASDE-X. Two of those are in my ARTCC! Does this mean that we will be using ASDE-X? I can tell you that my sector's FAB hasn't mentioned it. I'm pretty sure other sectors haven't mentioned it either, except for this thread.

 

It would be easier if we had local controllers on at each one of the airports using ASDE-X all of the time, but we don't, so we can't.

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

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It would be easier if we had local controllers on at each one of the airports using ASDE-X all of the time, but we don't, so we can't.

 

Once again, don't know, don't care. That's an ATC issue, not a pilot issue. I have a frequency, I tune to it, I talk to the controller. Just as a controller talks to me without worrying about whether or not I have an instrument rating (even in real life, it's not the controller's problem).

 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist such an awesome quote...

-Dan Everette

CFI, CFII, MEI

Having the runway in sight just at TDZE + 100 is like Mom, Warm cookies and milk, and Christmas morning, all wrapped into one.

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And if I tell you to turn your transponder off, I suggest that you do it, because if I am controlling that airport as an approach/Departure, or Center controller,

 

Well yes you are correct there as Norman as stated before

Our Code of Conduct, which we all agreed to on signup, gives the final call in this regard to the controller. If the controller asks you to set your transponder to a particular setting then this is what should be done.

 

Plus, Like I had said a number of times over, this is going to be an ARTCC specific thing. Not every major airport (read: Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B/C) in US Airspace uses ASDE-X. Until then, it will not be a policy that VATUSA will mandate or enforce. For example, MSP, BOS, MIA, DEN, SLC, SFO, PHX, SAN, LAS, MSY, MEM, STL, all of which are Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports, do NOT use ASDE-X. Two of those are in my ARTCC! Does this mean that we will be using ASDE-X? I can tell you that my sector's FAB hasn't mentioned it. I'm pretty sure other sectors haven't mentioned it either, except for this thread.

 

I don't think your getting it...we are not arguing using it EVERYWHERE just where the airport has the equipment to simulate it. This does not mean it will be used at all CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports, the FAA plans on installing this system in the future, but it is not in effect at this time. So you should not be expecting a pilot to remain Mode C when not flying in/out of a field that does not have it.

 

I say again THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERY CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airport...and no one is trying to make this a VATUSA policy...the existing VATSIM policy is good enough since its up to controller discretion, if we leave it like that then it will allow you to enforce it or not enforce it at your leisure.

Matt Bromback

Air Traffic Manager

N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR

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Matthew,

 

I actually understand the whole concept just fine. What is being missed from my explanations is that unlike in the real world, we have the potential to have a single controller manning the entire sector. The "real world" would never have that happen, and we all know that.

 

Second, I could man that entire sector using either ASRC or VRC. if I use ASRC, I'm going to have a huge swathe of green blips at that airport. It is a tall order to ask to sacrifice either the quality of my service to those already in the air for zooming in to that airport to figure out who is who, versus having everyone outbound from that airport take a huge delay for getting clearance, taxiing outbound, and taking off to the point where they get upset, log off the network, and leave me some serious negative feedback for not getting to them in an orderly fashion. With me being more of a quality person, I'd rather sacrifice the new system coming in to keep myself, and all the pilots under my control happy and flying.

 

But you're right, it should be left to the sector to mandate whether to use it or not, not the pilot.

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

27

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Look to me its very simple, if the airport has ASDE-X on the airport diagram I will follow it. I strive for realism and as a pilot if I land at an airport that has this I will leave my transponder on. That to me is what I am trying to get across here in this forum post...I would like to see ARTCC's honor the fact that pilots would like realism and if they feel like leaving their transponder on the ground at a ASDE-X airport then let em!!

 

Personally, I don't see why you feel that this should be an issue a pilot feels he "needs to simulate." ASDE-X and the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated equipment is purely something for ATC and to help ATC do their job. As has been stated, we really, truly don't have the means to accurately simulate it. We can pretend we're simulating it, but it's not being accurately done. So thusly...it should be purely up to the ARTCC whether or not they need to bother emulating ASDE-X (and a pilot shouldn't feel positively or negatively either way, whether they do it or not). [Then there would be a whole nother argument about why/if ASDE-X is even needed on VATSIM, after all...we usually don't have more than a few movements on the ground at any time anyways. That issue gets into the "VATSIM vs Real World, do we need this procedure," argument...which is very, very important when we structure our VATSIM SOP and LOA.]

 

Obviously, you already agreed that you will do as the controller instructs you...so obviously, we have no operational issue here, and I'm not saying that you're just intending to disobey an instruction. I know you're not petty

 

I don't think your getting it...we are not arguing using it EVERYWHERE just where the airport has the equipment to simulate it. This does not mean it will be used at all CL[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports, the FAA plans on installing this system in the future, but it is not in effect at this time. So you should not be expecting a pilot to remain Mode C when not flying in/out of a field that does not have it.

 

This goes back to Harold's issue...the problem he finds is that he is often needing to tell people to squawk standby after logging in, when he feels he shouldn't really be needing to do that. Honestly, the rule doesn't state that you have to by standby on the ground, it just states that you should always be sqk normal in the air. The general expectation has always been to have mode standby on the ground. However, whether or not I care if they were Standby or Normal, I certainly would never make the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that pilots were actually trying to follow the ASDE-X notification on a chart (and that they would go Standby on the ground at airports without the ASDE-X notice). The attentive pilot is the exception rather than the norm, and I certainly would NOT be expecting pilots to know the difference.

 

Let me just throw a scenario: Let's say the rule actually is that all pilots be mode Standby on the ground unless otherwise advised by ATC (ATIS or however). Let's say I'm controlling at an airport with ASDE-X; you actually have the faith that all the pilots are going to notice the instruction and follow it? Even if I have it in my ATIS and it's on the chart, I'm going to probably have to tell at least 50% of the pilots to go Normal before they start taxi...if not more. I'm just saying...the pilots around here are nothing to have faith in. And once I have to instruct a pilot to squawk normal at my airport, he has a much greater chance of logging in later on and going Normal at an airport he shouldn't be (which would then exasperate controllers who would need to tell them to squawk Standby).

Steve Ogrodowski

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Holy Transponders Batman!

 

Talk about 'Much Ado About Nothing' Shakespeare would be rolling in his grave.

 

Realism = Simulation = VATSIM? Yes and no. Consider what consists of the simulator platform you use (ATC or Pilot).

 

If you look at it from the controllers chair, unless a cab controller (tower or ground) is using the excellent tower view RC created with VRC, ALL cab controllers are using a 'radar' view of their airspace (just like ASDE-X). Is this a realistic simulation from the cab controllers point of view? Easy answer, NO. So ASDE is built-into the controllers software, and using a ground or tower radar mode, we can see who you are regardless of transponder setting. Simple answer, follow the controllers instructions, which BTW is what you would do in RW anyway.

 

From the pilots seat, you can have varying degrees of scenery, navigation data (way-points), as well as custom weather and even season/time of day. So how realistic is that? Does that degrade the 'simulation'? Sure it is, imagine it's 23:00 local time and the weather is 500' overcast and visibility is 1/4 mile, yet a pilot requests a VFR departure. ATC will inform them the weather is below VFR minimums yet the pilot insists it's clear and sunny. I guess we just lost another element of realism and as such, has lost the 'simulation'.

 

We also have 'text only' pilots (haven't seen too many in the real world), which knocks the realism down another notch, so much for RW simulation. I can go on and on, but I think you're getting the point, we have to establish a line (which the VATSIM staff have done superbly) between ultimate realism for the serious hobbyists and yet still be easy for a newcomer to enjoy while learning to better themselves abeit ATC or a pilot, for hobby or professional reasons.

Gerry Hattendorf

ZLA Webmaster

VATSIM Supervisor

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I think we've come to the conclusion that pilots are going to be expected to follow the instructions of the air traffic controller under which they are being controlled. It is the air traffic controllers decision of whether or not he or she would like to simulate a simulation of ASDE-X. Although I don't think it's appropriate yet on VATSIM, I'll gladly comply with a controllers instructions in the event that they do want to simulate it. I guess I hope everyone else will do the same.

 

Over and out...

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Gentlemen,

 

To preclude further proclamations of what the VATUSA policy might be on this matter, here is the official VATUSA view on this matter:

 

Our Code of Conduct, which we all agreed to on signup, gives the final call in this regard to the controller. If the controller asks you to set your transponder to a particular setting then this is what should be done.

There shall be no officially defined default transponder mode setting outside of this.

 

Recess!

Gary Millsaps

VATUSA1

 

"I knew all the rules but the rules did not know me...

guaranteed."

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This is truly amazing!!

 

This post has been discussed, debated, and did not end in a fight or a locked thread.

 

We shall celebrate this forum post for staying civilized and not for being locked! Good job posters!!

Matt Bromback

Air Traffic Manager

N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR

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