New STARS/ILS Procedures at LAX 0810 (9/25/08)

[Dhruv Kalra]

From the ZLA Forum:

 

These times they are a-changin!

 

EFFECTIVE 25 SEP 2008, 0900z...

 

OLDEE1- cute little arrival off of JLI

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0810/00237OLDEE.PDF

 

RIIVR2- see below

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0810/00237RIIVR.PDF

 

SEAVU2-see below

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0810/00237SEAVU.PDF

 

Interesting...where did the 2nd pages or transition routes go? No, I'm not hiding them!

 

EDIT: AAH! There they are. It's on the approach plate for 25L/24R. Whoop de doo!

 

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0810/00237I25LC2.PDF

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0810/00237IL24R.PDF

[Eric Stearns]

Well, somebody beat me to the post, but here's some additional guidance about the changes (I composed this offline, so some of it duplicates what is posted previously).

 

Three of the STARs at LAX have been modified or created. The RIIVR1 and SEAVU1 have been upnumbered to "2" and a new OLDEE1 STAR has been created. The OLDEE1 is similar to the JLI transition on the SEAVU1. The SEAVU2 has no JLI transition. Each of these STARs ends at RIIVR or SEAVU intersection. Each of the ILS procedures to the west runways has been extended and include IAFs at both RIIVR and SEAVU. Clearance for the ILS approaches should be issued prior to an aircraft reaching RIIVR or SEAVU intersection, which is considerably earlier than was required with the old ILS procedures.

 

As always, pilots are encouraged to use the latest procedures and we will support the use of the new STARs immediately. However, flying the new STARs using an FMS requires a database update (obviously, flying the STARs without an FMS can be done right away ) and the latest charts. For at least a few update cycles, we will continue to support both the RIIVR1/RIIVR2 and SEAVU1/SEAVU2 to facilitate the transition.

 

Simroutes will be updated with the latest procedures in the next few days and flightaware will show the latest version. However, if you don't have the latest charts or latest nav database update, please file for the old version of the procedures until you are up-to-date, so that the controller can plan for your arrival and issue the appropriate instructions.

 

Please feel free to ask any questions here, via PM, or in the ZLA forums.

 

Thanks!

[Brad Littlejohn]

Just to satisfy my curiosity if anything else, I'd like some input from those using X-Plane or FSX.

 

We already know that in FS9 and older, sometime after FUELR, PALAC, HURLR, and MUSIK you will pick up the localizer, and sometime before the gates (HUNDA/GAATE) you will pick up the glideslope. So the furthest out you'll see anything on the 24s/25s approach path is shortly after the old IAFs (the fixes above).

 

My question is this. In FSX or X-Plane, do those of you using it pick up the localizer further out than FUELR, PALAC, MUSIK, or HURLR? I don't know if there are any mods people can do to FS9 for that to happen, but I'm just curious about if you pick up the localizer before then.

 

I remember hearing from Craig Moulton and others that in the RW, they were able to pick up the localizer around CIVET..

 

BL.

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

BL,

 

I believe in MSFS that was only after we had made modifications.

I haven't tested it in X-Plane but one would [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that if the angle was correct between the aircraft and the station broadcasting the localiser - you should be able to pick it up at whatever distance it is available real world.

 

I RARELY fly anything larger than a Piper Malibu, so these arrivals are not something I would normally be flying anymore, expecially since most of my flights are VFR. Next time I fly the SoCal area I'll zip out near CIVET and see if I can pick up ILAX.

[Dhruv Kalra]

In X-Plane I've been able to pick up the localizer well before RIIVR on the RIIVR1. I haven't checked it recently, but usually that's about when I tune it, and usually it comes right to life.

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

I remember hearing from Craig Moulton and others that in the RW, they were able to pick up the localizer around CIVET...

 

Most can actually pick it up around or east of TNP. There are times we put them on the 25L localizer, and they have no problems picking it up there. As well, Center sectors 19 and 20 used to own Feeder's airspace, before we gave it to Socal. From what I'm told, joining the 25L localizer at or near TNP was pretty commonplace back then.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

Looking at these new procedures and other procedures, I find myself wondering: why can't small GA aircraft just file something simple like, say, JEDD1.MZB to go from KLAX to KSAN? Why file a TEC route? The JEDD1 looks like it's made for small props (it says "turboprops only," does that exclude smaller performance props like a Baron), and it takes you right from LAX to Mission Bay.

 

Likewise, KSAN has the HUBRD1, which looks like it can be flown by a small prop. Is it permissible to file LAX.HUBRD1 for a KLAX-KSAN trip in a Baron?

 

I'm curious as to why TEC routes seem not to use these procedures. Are the TEC routes intended for aircraft that can't handle STARs and SIDs, or what?

 

I actually don't care which one I file, I'll file whatever is used in real life, but it would be interesting to file a STAR or SID in the Baron or even my C182 once in a while.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Looking at these new procedures and other procedures, I find myself wondering: why can't small GA aircraft just file something simple like, say, JEDD1.MZB to go from KLAX to KSAN? Why file a TEC route? The JEDD1 looks like it's made for small props (it says "turboprops only," does that exclude smaller performance props like a Baron), and it takes you right from LAX to Mission Bay.

 

Let me answer this question with another. How many small props are RNAV capable? Granted, newer Cessnas and the like are coming with Gl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] panels, but how many that are in use right now are truly RNAV capable? I ask, because the JEDDD1 is RNAV. You could say that the JEDD1 is the RNAV equivalent of the SLI5 departure.

 

Likewise, KSAN has the HUBRD1, which looks like it can be flown by a small prop. Is it permissible to file LAX.HUBRD1 for a KLAX-KSAN trip in a Baron?

 

I'm curious as to why TEC routes seem not to use these procedures. Are the TEC routes intended for aircraft that can't handle STARs and SIDs, or what?

 

I actually don't care which one I file, I'll file whatever is used in real life, but it would be interesting to file a STAR or SID in the Baron or even my C182 once in a while.

 

The primary reason for this is to keep those that are slow'n'go out of the main turbojet arrival stream as much as practical. Think about it this way. Say you're in a Cessna, Twin Cessna, Piper Navajo, or the like, and you file LAXX5 out of LAX. That keeps you in the main departure stream for quite a bit, and the jet behind you having to wait a fairly long time for his takeoff clearance to keep adequate spacing behind you and so he/she doesn't overtake you.

 

Same thing would apply for arriving into KSAN via LAX.HUBRD1. A hole for you in the stream would need to be opened and spacing provided for separation for you in that stream, which would back up all the arrivals in that stream. So the best way to get you there just as fast and frequent as the jets, is to keep you out of that stream and add you to another.

 

Make sense?

 

BL.