Richard Ruminski Posted November 24, 2008 at 05:45 PM Posted November 24, 2008 at 05:45 PM (edited) Featuring KMSY from 8PM EST / 5PM PST Date: Friday, November 28, 2008 edit: Time Edited November 26, 2008 at 02:56 PM by Guest Ric Ruminski I1 VATUSA11 Communications Manager VATUSA email: VATUSA11 (at) vatusa.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Shank Van Eenige 9979 Posted November 25, 2008 at 03:56 AM Posted November 25, 2008 at 03:56 AM Not to be snippy, but I must point out that because GMT advances the date as well as the time, the correct GMT date and time for the FNO is Saturday, November 29 from 0100Z - 0500Z. This is the same as: 11/28 5-9 p.m. PST 11/28 6-10 p.m. MST 11/28 7-11 p.m. CST 11/28 8-12 p.m. EST Yes? Eric Shank Van Eenige Real-World Private Pilot vZAU Enroute Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bromback Posted November 25, 2008 at 06:25 PM Posted November 25, 2008 at 06:25 PM Why cant all events in VATUSA be posted in the local time zone for the hosting ARTCC/airport??? There are plenty of tools available via GOOGLE which can convert it to your local time zone if needed. I think this would prevent any future mis-understandings with this issue. Matt Bromback Air Traffic Manager N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted November 25, 2008 at 06:32 PM Posted November 25, 2008 at 06:32 PM Or, perhaps best, post both zulu AND local, brilliant! ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Atkielski 985811 Posted November 25, 2008 at 08:38 PM Posted November 25, 2008 at 08:38 PM Why cant all events in VATUSA be posted in the local time zone for the hosting ARTCC/airport??? There are plenty of tools available via GOOGLE which can convert it to your local time zone if needed. I think this would prevent any future mis-understandings with this issue. UTC produces far less confusion than local time zones, since it is the same everywhere and never changes. That's why it is used universally in aviation. If you think local time works better, try to emulate an arbitrary, real-world flight on VATSIM and see if it actually departs and arrives at the same time that you do. I've been there and done that, many times, and it's a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted November 25, 2008 at 09:08 PM Posted November 25, 2008 at 09:08 PM If you think local time works better, try to emulate an arbitrary, real-world flight on VATSIM and see if it actually departs and arrives at the same time that you do. I've been there and done that, many times, and it's a mess. Last I knew, airline schedules were published with local arrival and departure times. Hmm... probably because it's less confusing to the vast majority of the public who barely tolerate DST, let alone the complexities of UTC. ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Atkielski 985811 Posted November 25, 2008 at 09:23 PM Posted November 25, 2008 at 09:23 PM Last I knew, airline schedules were published with local arrival and departure times. Yes, that's why it's a mess trying to emulate those real-world flights. Hmm... probably because it's less confusing to the vast majority of the public who barely tolerate DST, let alone the complexities of UTC. The vast majority of the public doesn't pilot airplanes. Pilots do, however, and they use UTC everywhere in the world—precisely because it is less complex than dozens of local time zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted November 25, 2008 at 10:58 PM Posted November 25, 2008 at 10:58 PM I say post both, with emphasis given to the local time. Such as: Such and such event, happening this Saturday 20:00 EST Local. (Sunday 0300 Zulu) We really need both, since if only zulu time is posted, we're always left wondering whether or not the person posting the announcement remembered to convert the DATE portion to zulu time as well. That's the big source of confusion that I've seen in these forums ... it's not the time zone differences. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted November 26, 2008 at 12:58 AM Posted November 26, 2008 at 12:58 AM Last I knew, airline schedules were published with local arrival and departure times. Yes, that's why it's a mess trying to emulate those real-world flights. Hmm... probably because it's less confusing to the vast majority of the public who barely tolerate DST, let alone the complexities of UTC. The vast majority of the public doesn't pilot airplanes. Pilots do, however, and they use UTC everywhere in the world—precisely because it is less complex than dozens of local time zones. And, arguably, the vast majority of VATSIM users also dont actually pilot airplanes or have direct experience with zulu time to any reasonable extent. Post both times. ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Shank Van Eenige 9979 Posted November 26, 2008 at 07:11 AM Posted November 26, 2008 at 07:11 AM Or, if we just start posting events in UTC correctly, no conversion will be required. Posting both times is like saying that UTC isn't sufficient. We're simulating aviation, and we should tell time like aviators. Eric Shank Van Eenige Real-World Private Pilot vZAU Enroute Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted November 26, 2008 at 07:33 AM Posted November 26, 2008 at 07:33 AM And yet, practical reality says lets try and be kind to people that dont have a clue how to convert Zulu time. We are not time nazis here... I've been seriously involved with aviation a scant 10 years, I do ATC for a living now, and I still dont like converting between local and zulu... DST changes, addition, subtraction, 12 to 24 hour clock... I mean, cmon, why make people think hard when all you're trying to do is help them show up at an event when everyone else should be? Even TV stations post at least one conversion, you know, like "New show at 10, 9 Central." Sure, it's not Zulu, but still, converting time can be a real pain. Is it really that hard to help? ~Nate PS - This isn't directed at Ric or anything involving this or previous event postings... only arguing that future posts should contain both Z and Local time. Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Shank Van Eenige 9979 Posted November 26, 2008 at 06:03 PM Posted November 26, 2008 at 06:03 PM This isn't directed at Ric or anything involving this or previous event postings... +1 I'm not trying to target Ric for anything... mistaken time conversion can happen to anyone. I once missed an event by a full day because it was posted with the proper date (Friday, 0000Z), so I showed up on Friday night local time, only to find out that the event had happened the night before. But I learned my lesson, hence the reason I pointed out the time difference at the top of this thread. And, I must agree that posting both times encourages people to make the conversion and double-check it, so I suppose that posting both times encourages education. So, I guess I've changed my mind. Post both times so there is no confusion, and you'll be encouraging people to practice their time conversion skills. Eric Shank Van Eenige Real-World Private Pilot vZAU Enroute Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Atkielski 985811 Posted November 27, 2008 at 02:48 AM Posted November 27, 2008 at 02:48 AM Posting multiple times seems fine, as long as one of them is always UTC. It may not be as useful as it seems, though, because flights of non-trivial length will cross time zones, anyway. If the FNO airport(s) is in time zone A, and someone is flying into the area from zone E, having the local time posted for the FNO venue adds nothing that UTC doesn't already provide, because a conversion is necessary in any case. The advantage of UTC is that it only requires people to memorize one conversion (between their own time and UTC), whereas posting local times requires people to look up conversions for one or more zones in order to get from local time at some arbitrary point on the globe to local time wherever they are operating. Since so many flights cross time zones, this is a very common problem, and universal use of UTC in the real world of aviation was put in place to solve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Guyer 1031616 Posted November 28, 2008 at 08:40 PM Posted November 28, 2008 at 08:40 PM Yeah! Alright! Let's have a great FNO!!! WOOOOO! www.zhuartcc.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted November 28, 2008 at 08:52 PM Posted November 28, 2008 at 08:52 PM We are not time nazis here... Ahh the dreaded Bill O'Reilly approach, guess it was destined to happen in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Johns Posted November 28, 2008 at 09:29 PM Posted November 28, 2008 at 09:29 PM Ahh the dreaded Bill O'Reilly approach, guess it was destined to happen in this thread. WTF, over? ~Nate Nate Johns "All things are difficult before they are easy." - Dr. Thomas Fuller, Gnomologia, 1732 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Vander Ark 1027773 Posted November 29, 2008 at 07:02 AM Posted November 29, 2008 at 07:02 AM The event was great!! My first night controlling!! I loved it and we had a ton of traffic! - 42 Shots on Airliners.net - "I haven't failed. I've found 10,000 ways that don't work." - Thomas Edison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted November 29, 2008 at 07:21 AM Posted November 29, 2008 at 07:21 AM Great job Houston ... I flew in from ATL ... the ATC was excellent! Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kornel 964857 Posted November 29, 2008 at 09:17 AM Posted November 29, 2008 at 09:17 AM And yet, practical reality says lets try and be kind to people that dont have a clue how to convert Zulu time. We are not time nazis here... I call Godwin's Law; I win! Oh, and I also apologize to vZHU, and I think vZME also. As the controller staffing CVG_GND during part of the FNO, I can say that we at vZID will be a little more careful next time we send you a flood of Delta flights! A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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