Some questions about CVFR in Israel

[David Wilson-Okamura 91149]

Several months ago I installed a bunch of scenery for Israel and began to explore from the air, using Tactical Pilotage Charts (from the U.S. Department of Defense). Now I'd like to make it more realistic. If you are reading this, then you know that almost everything written about aviation in Israel is in Hebrew -- a language and script that I have so far been too busy or lazy to learn. But the Vatil website is VERY helpful, and almost everything there except the forum is accessible to non-Hebrew speakers. I've also studied the tutorial on CVFR at AIT-air.org. Pictures only, I'm afraid! But those are helpful.

 

Here are some questions I still have. If anyone has answers, I'd be very grateful.

 

1. How much of the voice communication on VATSIM is conducted in Hebrew? I've read the SOP for this on the Vatil website, but I'm trying to get a sense of what really happens. It seems to me that if real-world ATC is in Hebrew, then it's a little silly for someone like me to come on and expect everyone to start speaking English, just for the sake of one person. On the other hand, if people are speaking in English already, a non-Hebrew speaker is less of an intrusion.

 

2. How does VATSIM handle flights between Israel, Syria, and Lebanon? It's my understanding that, in the real world, Lebanon does not accept flights to or from Israel, and that Syria does not even accept overflights from Israel. I'm not asking anyone to explain, defend, or attack these policies in the real world -- I'm just curious how it gets worked out on VATSIM.

 

3. One of the few English-language sources that I've found on CVFR in Israel is a blog entry: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2003/06/10 Would anyone care to comment? For example, does he overstate the obstacles to general aviation in Israel?

[Ran Finkels 883330]

Hi David,

Well in the real world & real Israel, CVFR trafic must speak Hebrew.

But in Vatsim there is no problem that we control over you in English.

The rull is all trafic on CVFR (depens on which station is open) until we have a foreigner on the chanel, than all switch to English, unless we want to joke on you so we do it in Hebrew

nahh just kiding

The issue here is that all CVFR maps are in Hebrew :S

What we can do & of course you will need to coordinate it with the controlers online, we help you & vector you through the flight.

 

Regarding flight from & to Syria & Lebanon, there are of course no official routing btw the countries, so again you can coordinate this with the controlers (if they are online) & create an entry point from the North & do a dct or be vectroed by the controlers.

Another option is to fly on a regular rout from Syria to Lebanon to Cyprus (velox) & from there on the regular rout to Israel.

 

Any way you are most welcome to fly in Israel & if you need any thing from our team, feel free to drop a line.

[David Wilson-Okamura 91149]

Thank you! May I ask some more questions? These all refer to the CVFR charts:

 

1. What are the yellow circles?

 

2. Is there a symbol on the charts for "mandatory reporting point"?

 

3. Do the CVFR waypoints show up in the Flight Simulator GPS?

 

4. What do the numbers in black circles represent?

 

I apologize for asking about things that have already been explained in the tutorial on ait-air.org.

[Ran Finkels 883330]

1. They mark the air fields.

 

2. All point on the rout are mandatory unless atc tells you to report app one of the way point on your rout.

 

3. Unfortunately No, they are not showing on the GPS.

 

4. length in miles btw the way points.

 

Don't apologize, you may ask as many questions as you like & we'd be more than happy to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist you or any one who would like to fly in to or from Israel,

See ya around

[David Wilson-Okamura 91149]

Don't apologize, you may ask as many questions as you like.

 

Ok, here are some more:

 

1. Is there a listing somewhere of the latitude and longitude for these waypoints? If so, I think I could make a file that would put them in the GPS.

 

2. Are the routes named? Compare victor-routes elsewhere: V109, V237, etc.

[Yuval Elbaz 875959]

Don't apologize, you may ask as many questions as you like.

 

Ok, here are some more:

 

1. Is there a listing somewhere of the latitude and longitude for these waypoints? If so, I think I could make a file that would put them in the GPS.

 

2. Are the routes named? Compare victor-routes elsewhere: V109, V237, etc.

 

1. Here, its a text file with all the CVFR waypoints including their latitude and longitude:

http://www.fly.org.il/uploads/navigation/vfr0504.txt

 

2. No.

 

And correction for Ran's post:

 

4. length in miles btw the way points.

In the left side of the map there are notes about some of the routs, each note have number who represnt

on the map by black circle near the rout it refers to .

Edited July 18, 2005 at 06:03 PM by Guest

[Ilan Jonas 860311]

 

2. All point on the rout are mandatory unless atc tells you to report app one of the way point on your rout.

 

 

And yet another correction: All yellow triangles are non-compulsary report (defind as "by ATC demand"), all black triangles are mandatory report points.

[Ran Finkels 883330]

Don't apologize, you may ask as many questions as you like.

 

Ok, here are some more:

 

1. Is there a listing somewhere of the latitude and longitude for these waypoints? If so, I think I could make a file that would put them in the GPS.

 

2. Are the routes named? Compare victor-routes elsewhere: V109, V237, etc.

 

1. Here, its a text file with all the CVFR waypoints including their latitude and longitude:

http://www.fly.org.il/uploads/navigation/vfr0504.txt

 

2. No.

 

And correction for Ran's post:

 

4. length in miles btw the way points.

In the left side of the map there are notes about some of the routs, each note have number who represnt

on the map by black circle near the rout it refers to .

 

 

About the reporting points I'm stand corrected though you may be requested to report each point.

Regarding the numbers...

Here is a screeny of part of the CVFR north map (actually I took the Tel Aviv & the center of Israel).

 

What you can see there is:

Yellos cicles marks air fileds. In the right cornere you have LLBG which is Ben Gurion International air port, on the coast line you have LLSD and more.

The red circle arround LLBG marks LLBG ctr adn arround it the LLBG TMA & the markings of the LLSD CTR & LLHZ CTR.

 

Now the route hight you can see in the yellow boxed with numbers in them, for example, look at LLBG (triangle with yellow circle around it) you can see the yellow box pointing north with 1200 in it. this is the hight btw LLBG to the next CVFR point calles Sgula.

The Black 6 btw llbg & sgula is the miles btw the two way points.

In the lest lower corner of the map you can see a black circle witht the 8 no. this what Yuval talked about as legend for other part of the map.

 

The CVFR routs are not named.

The main issue is that the CVFR maps are in hebrew & I don't know if the list of way points that Yuval gave you is in English.

Ran.

[Jason Baxter 920557]

If I may chime in , I'd like to know what are rules for flying in a TMA (i'm american), is it similar to cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo in america, how would I go about entering VFR?

[David Wilson-Okamura 91149]

Okay, using Yuval Elbaz's data file I have created a scenery file which will insert the CVFR waypoints into Flight Simulator. Unfortunately, I don't read Hebrew, so it is hard for me to know how well it is working. Would anyone like to test it and report back? The file is here: http://virgil.org/dswo/fs/israelcvfrwaypoints.zip

[Yuval Elbaz 875959]

It's great! Thank you!

I checked some of the waypoints in the north, and they are in

the correct position.

Afterwards I'll check more waypoints.

[Or Netzer 894448]

If I may chime in , I'd like to know what are rules for flying in a TMA (i'm american), is it similar to cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo in america, how would I go about entering VFR?

 

Hello. The TMA is a big area combine IFR and CVFR flight. IFR flights are between J10 route and LLBG (Ben Gurion intl) and LLSD (Sde Dov airport). and in the past even LLRJ (Jerusalem- The airport is no longer active in real life but in sim he does).

The CVFR routes in the TMA are from LLBG LLSD LLHZ and LLRJ to the north of the country south and between thouse airports.

There is no VFR in Israel as in USA. but i sure you can ask for one from the controller - even thou its not realistic.

As for you there is no problem for you to fly IFR in the TMA just for example flight IFR betweer LLET (EILAT INTL) and LLBG.

same as in USA on regular IFR route and the diffrence is that we fly RVSM ruls and not CVSM and you will get the QNH in inches (1009 1010 1011) and not milibar (2992).

Have no fear to come fly with us even ask for unrealistic VFR flight or just ask for vectors for CVFR flight.

 

hope i answerd your question.

[David Wilson-Okamura 91149]

Since we started chatting about this, I've put some items in the AVSIM file library. http://library.avsim.net/ Distribute or post these wherever you like.

 

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=nav&DLID=71237

israelcvfrwaypoints.zip - This is the file I talked about earlier, which will insert CVFR waypoints into the FS map and GPS.

 

http://library.avsim.net/download.php?DLID=71244

israelmm.zip - This is for people who use Rana Hossain's Moving Map program. It's the two CVFR charts that are already available online, calibrated for use with FSM Moving Map (FSMMM). Calibration was performed primarily using the marked intersections of latitude and longitude lines. I am not entirely satisfied with the results. In most places, the accuracy seems to be off by about one mile. I do not know if this is my fault, or simply a limitation of the original map.

 

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=miscmisc&DLID=71236

qnhconversion.zip - For altimeter settings, just a one-page printable table of equivalents for millibars (mb) and inches of mercury (Hg)

Edited August 2, 2005 at 02:08 PM by Guest

[Or Netzer 894448]

Since we started chatting about this, I've put a some items in the AVSIM file library. http://library.avsim.net/ Distribute or post these wherever you like.

 

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=nav&DLID=71237

israelcvfrwaypoints.zip - This is the file I talked about earlier, which will insert CVFR waypoints into the FS map and GPS.

 

http://library.avsim.net/download.php?DLID=71244

israelmm.zip - This is for people who use Rana Hossain's Moving Map program. It's the two CVFR charts that are already available online, calibrated for use with FSM Moving Map (FSMMM). Calibration was performed primarily using the marked intersections of latitude and longitude lines. I am not entirely satisfied with the results. In most places, the accuracy seems to be off by about one mile. I do not know if this is my fault, or simply a limitation of the original map.

 

http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=miscmisc&DLID=71236

qnhconversion.zip - For altimeter settings, just a one-page printable table of equivalents for millibars (mb) and inches of mercury (Hg)

 

nice job mate

[Jonathan Perelmuter 819359]

If I may chime in , I'd like to know what are rules for flying in a TMA (i'm american), is it similar to cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo in america, how would I go about entering VFR?

 

Hello. The TMA is a big area combine IFR and CVFR flight. IFR flights are between J10 route and LLBG (Ben Gurion intl) and LLSD (Sde Dov airport). and in the past even LLRJ (Jerusalem- The airport is no longer active in real life but in sim he does).

The CVFR routes in the TMA are from LLBG LLSD LLHZ and LLRJ to the north of the country south and between thouse airports.

There is no VFR in Israel as in USA. but i sure you can ask for one from the controller - even thou its not realistic.

As for you there is no problem for you to fly IFR in the TMA just for example flight IFR betweer LLET (EILAT INTL) and LLBG.

same as in USA on regular IFR route and the diffrence is that we fly RVSM ruls and not CVSM and you will get the QNH in inches (1009 1010 1011) and not milibar (2992).

Have no fear to come fly with us even ask for unrealistic VFR flight or just ask for vectors for CVFR flight.

 

hope i answerd your question.

 

 

well to add more points to or's answer i would say that cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B and the TMA have there similarities and differences:

 

first, both of the have the same requirements: 2 way radio, transponder with altitude encoding (mode C) and a clearance.

 

BUT, since in israel we do not have VFR you will have those requirements for every airspace (excluding local flight within a tower CTR where you are not under radar service), In CVFR as all the fellows here explained we fly on certain routes (yup visual routes and not instrument). i can say that it is similar to fly under a Victor under VFR as you may see sometime in sectional map over the US

 

any more doubts?