The List... (Edited)

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Alan...

 

As requested. Here is the list, so far. More may come to me. I'm sure that there will be some folks that'll fill in the blanks.

 

Here's the PM from a BoG member who took exception to my post with the names included.

Bo,

 

I have moved the thread in the interim.

 

Reason? I wont have you shouting off names or identities such as you have done with ..... .

 

You want to redress this by making changes I am happy to put those in place and return the post should it be done correctly.

 

In regard to point 1, each and every BoG meeting since I joined I (or more recently Florian) have implored fellow Governors to get online.

 

Thanks for the understanding!

 

 

The List:

 

1. The biggest issue plaguing VATSIM is an attitude of ambivalence. From the top to the bottom. Founders, BoG, the divisions and regions. Whether it is the current economic state, or just fatigue from playing the charade for so long, people simply don’t care. There are BoG members who are in positions that REQUIRE online time who haven’t been online in 9 months. Yet, there is no accountability anywhere. As far as VATUSA goes, we have Directors who are never seen. There are ATM’s who hide behind the moniker of “working offline” to shirk the on-line time and accountability that the position demands. There are real people who demand the attention of these leaders. ATM’s that can’t, don’t, and won’t meet minimum online times that they wrote into their policies for months is unacceptable. There are people who don’t even give the common courtesy of a reply to the receipt of a resume sent in for a position opening. Unacceptable, and completely unprofessional. But it is accepted with a reply of ‘I receive a billion emails a day, and I am not able to reply because I am too busy”.

 

How I’d fix it: Expose the guilty and replace them. Produce, or walk. Pretty simple. Do what’s in the best interest of the organization and resign, if you know that you can’t serve the membership the way that it deserves to be served. Term limits for the BoG in order to reduce burnout, and keep fluid ideas and creativity at the forefront of the organization.

 

2. It is increasingly obvious that there is a severe lack of teamwork and communication at the highest levels, with fissures being seen in the details within the BoG. Where are these people? They are never seen online, flying or controlling. With all of the talk about bandwidth, how can a BoG member sit and watch the scope for 7 hours as an observer? Can this BoG member not control and supervise at the same time? In reference to VATUSA, there has been a history of administrations treating this hobby as a military organization expecting people to follow a “chain of command” acting like Generals too busy to get their hands in the dirt and actually do some work at the ground level. Not only that, but these people, who have absolutely no idea how the military structure of the chain of command really works, distort this structure to put themselves out of reach of the very people that they were brought in to serve.

 

How to fix it: See above.

 

3. Several years ago, (Name Removed) came in to be director of VATUSA. He made VATUSA his personal kingdom, acting simultaneously like an immature child, and a tyrant. He made it his mission to see the downfall of one of the most popular, and increasingly powerful ATM (then Chief) of easily the most powerful and popular ARTCC’s (Los Angeles) on the network. This was all started because (Name Removed) had a personal disagreement with (Name Removed) way of doing business. That in and of itself is irrelevant when [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming a leadership position. Instead of unifying other ARTCC’s around this facility and encouraging these facilities to get in line with the direction of this ARTCC, it was decided that the ATM was too much of a threat and cited bogus reasons for his removal. In talking with NUMEROUS other ATM’s, it was discovered that all of us were, in some form or fashion, duplicating what LA was doing trying to bring the same standards to all of our ARTCC’s. For one reason; because it worked! And it was FUN! (Name removed)and his staff were more than willing to share everything that he had done with almost every other ARTCC. This was one decision that spun into motion the beginning of the layers upon layers of bogus bureaucracy that we see today in VATUSA. Instead of the Chiefs/ ATM’s reporting directly to VATUSA1 to encourage direct and fluid communication, the Region Director was put into place, citing “Chain of Command” as the reasoning. For no other reason than to act as an intermediary between (Named Removed), and the ATM’s. For the leader of an organization with thousands of members to be incapable of having 22 people work with him directly showed a tremendous lack of leadership. Understand; as an ATM, we have rosters with 50 to 150 people and we interface with those individuals directly daily. To see the Director of VATUSA put a buffer between 22 individuals with 4 people was simultaneously disheartening, and laughable.

 

Meanwhile, in the forum, any discussion that turned in a real debate, and there were many, was immediately squashed and locked. Often, there would be a threat of being removed, or suspended for speaking out awaiting in the email inbox. People quit going into the forums, obviously. Pressure for numbers and operations, online hours, and various other irrelevant goings on intensified from (Name Removed) and his staff causing ATM’s and staff members to make an exodus. Of course, the common cause “Lack of time” was cited as the reason, yet everybody could see the writing on the wall. People were expendable because the membership was growing and growing.

 

Around this time, CTI students started showing up en m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]e to the network. When vacancies opened for ATM positions, there were a flood of these CTI students applying for ATM positions. These are college students, with busy cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] loads, a social life, and in one case, a sandy beach in near tropical weather year-round who were applying for these ATM positions. These were also kids who had never held a title of any sort in their life and were nothing short of title and rating mongers. By and large, they had zero experience leading anybody, let alone a roster full of people in a virtual organization. They turned these ARTCC’s into their little fiefdoms and strove for hyper-realism. Yet, these kids had never put on a mic and talked to an aircraft, ever, and in most cases, had never spent more than an hour on the floor of an Air Traffic Control facility. Additionally, they made things so difficult in the training process that, me, as a veteran ATC, found the process of getting qualified in a facility excessively difficult and often tedious. And I did this for a living! I frequently asked why things were being done they way they were, and the response…. You got it… “Because that’s how it’s done in the real world”. I often was left wondering what real world they were talking about because it most certainly wasn’t mine. The firing of (Name Removed), being replaced with (Name Removed) only exacerbated this issue. The ATM’s more often than not paper-qual’d their friends, and pals, creating bloated rosters of controllers with no quals. The C1’s and C3’s found the process, which was once fun, and only a hobby increasingly becoming a full-time job to obtain a qual. They left, tired of the antics and posturing of inexperienced ATC wanna-be’s running these ARTCC’s into the ground. When the complaints of many went unheard by the ambivalent folks on high, people grew disenchanted and left.

 

How to fix: See above. Additionally, work to make this hobby attractive to the hobbyist. 1st. Put the right people into the ATM position. Tighten the requirements for applicants. The position should seek the applicant, not vice versa. The right people are generally out of high school, and college. They have some experience leading people. They can be critical and objective thinkers. 2nd: Standardize the training across the board. Teach the procedures how they need to be taught for each facility, but standardize the nuts and bolts. 3rd: Seek out the C3’s who have invested countless hours into this hobby and see if they’re interested in helping put the wheels back on the bus.

 

4. The websites in the ARTCC have become the revolving front door of aforementioned fiefdoms for long enough. The website, the most essential and critical component of a virtual organization, has become the bane of every incoming ATM’s existence. When an ATM is removed, for whatever reason, the first thing to go with them is the website, which is detrimental to the rest of the facility. Any continuity that the facility has had gets lost in trying to re-build the front door to the facility. Stop everything! We need to re-build the website. Additionally, for an organization that prides itself on organization, there is no organization, or symmetry in the websites. Why not put all 22 ARTCC’s under the organization, so that people can’t hijack the website on the way out the door? Standardize the websites so that we have a handful of people with access to every ARTCC’s website. This removes the need for an ARTCC webmaster, and allows the ARTCC Staff to have a central contact for all website updates.

[Scott DeWoody]

Bo, I can't agree with you more, the items on your list mirror the things I've been saying all along, some parts more than others, only no one was listening, it's about time someone spoke up! kudos

[J Jason Vodnansky 810003]

I can't resist it, the "Titanic" reference fits so well here in this division.

 

No, keep the dinner music playing, and don't bother loading the lifeboats. This ship is fine, its unsinkable!

 

meanwhile...

 

JV

[Thomas Mathieu 998318]

I can't resist it, the "Titanic" reference fits so well here in this division.

 

No, keep the dinner music playing, and don't bother loading the lifeboats. This ship is fine, its unsinkable!

 

meanwhile...

 

JV

 

I was going to keep my mouth shut and stay out of this conversation but after seeing the quote above, from a member who has been with VATSIM (and perhaps SATCO) from the beginning, leaves me to wonder just where we are going. I even saw a post that "predicted" the end of VATSIM by the end of the year.

 

Clearly there are alot of members looking for a significant change in the way VATSIM is run. I hope that we keep the "spin" and attacks out and have a productive discussion. I will keep a close watch on the discussions and I hope the end result is positive for everyone.

 

I cannot image a weekend where I could load up a flight and have to fly with Bill Gates ATC....let's not let the ship sink.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

ive been reading people crying "wolf" since the days of satco, not likely to stop anytime soon even after making the adjustments currently required, cant satisfy them all.

 

if people can restrict themselfs from attacking each other and getting to the points at hand then something good may come out of it

[Alan Hensley 950569]

When I asked Bo for the list of things he would like to see done and what he would do to change them, I naively thought I would get a list in return that realistically be done to better things. Most of what was written in this list can not be done quickly to better this organization. Are they legitimate concerns? Yes absolutely. But again these are problems that have been problems for as long as I have been on VATSIM. Longer. I did not address the first three points for the most part because I felt most of what was written was beyond my personal control. I am sure some of what I am about to say will as usual be turned around and a word or sentence here or there will be quoted in a reply to say "See?? I gotcha!" so to speak. Some call it "flaming". What ever term is used does not solve the problems for the most part. Please keep in mind the gentleman who wrote this list has been on VATSIM for a good while now, longer then me in fact. This gentleman has held a staff position also. So I feel it is logical to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that the gentleman who wrote this list knows exactly what I have the ability to bring to Alex and try to get changed.

 

A lot of what goes on is based on perception. So include me in a list of those who are perceiving what is taking place. The above list has now been posted on another ARTCC's forum. And that is well within the right of the poster. But, is that the way things get done? I submit it is part of the problem and not the solution. It is as much "business as usual" as the accusations made in most of the list that was submitted. One thing that I would have thought would have been easily noticed was not once in my short reply to Bo's list did I say I disagreed with the things on his list. Conveniently, or accidently that appears it was completely missed. What I said was I would not address them. Meaning I would not address them in a forum.

 

Now to address the Gentleman's list in full to the extent of being respectful to all who were mentioned. My comments are MY opinions. There are not hidden messages nor am I meaning anything to be disrespectable to anyone, period:

 

In item # 1, the mention of the Board of Governor's was not addressed for a couple of reasons. One being, I am new to the "national scene". I am not going to give an opinion on my past perceived conceptions, probably misconceptions. I have never spoken nor to my knowledge spoken with any of the present members of the Board of Governor's. In the two short months I have been a VATUSA Staff member that has not changed. I will not go on past perceptions of them possibly causing my opinions to become even more biased due to forum posts I have read and "rumors" I may have heard. Regarding the ATM's, I have had the privilege of meeting TWO Founders. One of which was in my home for a very brief couple of hours. I will say that if these two Gentlemen are ANY indication of the commitment that goes on behind the scenes (Yes that is where the REAL work gets done), then VATSIM is VERY healthy and in good shape.

 

What was said about a few of the ATM's was SPOT ON. Can that be changed over night? Absolutely not. Steps must be taken. Meticulous steps. Everyone deserves that. I will address further the problems with our ATM's. Note: I am not saying I necessarily disagree with Bo.

 

Regarding the other comments about the BoG members. Is that something I as VATUSA 2 can do? Or even VATUSA 1? I kinda doubt it. Suggest? Maybe?.

 

Item # 2:

 

Again, Bo has been around for at least 5 years. How can I as VATUSA2 address the BoG and say they are not spending enough time on the network? I do not know what they do behind the scenes. After the Founder left my home last in August of 2008, I had a better understanding of what went on behind the scenes and a new Respect not only for him but for the others. In regards for the Chain of Command, there are times it needs to be followed and respected and times it doesn't. Out of respect (and there appears to me be very little of this) for the Title is one reason. Note again, I did not say the person necessarily. Of course this is not the military nor do I personally look at it that way. I will however, respect the position the person holds. That is the way I was raised and that is the way I will be.

 

Item # 3:

 

I will NOT mention names. IF I have a problem with an individual I will take it to them. Again, that is the way I was raised. I may not agree or necessarily like someone but I will, until they personally don't let me, respect the person. I was not there when they made their decisions nor can I intelligently comment without knowing all the facts of why they made their decisions. I will left that to others. There is no place in forums or anywhere, except face to face for that (or a medium that the internet allows), again in my opinion. I had nothing to do with how the Regional Directors came into being. But their positions remain. And I will respect them. When I was privileged to take the position of VATUSA 2 I sent an email to them. Some did not get it initially due to YES problems with the website and the email system. In that email, from my heart, I asked them a series of questions ranging from what they expected from me to what they would do to change things were they VATUSA 1. These were gathered and taken up the "chain". I can honestly say I feel the Region Directors are a valuable [Mod - Happy Thoughts]et. If for no other reason (and there are many), it proved the ARTCC Staff with a way to COMMUNICATE with a VATUSA Staff member in the event something happens, and it seems to happen quite frequently, when the Director is unavailable. Plus it is much easier for a Regional Director to see what is taken place at a few ARTCC's versus a Director who has to focus on all of them (Bo, mentioned some of the problems himself on the ARTCC level himself above).

 

Regarding the forum situation Bo mentioned. I think that was covered by Kyle very well. It is very easy to take out of context what is said in a forum. My post here probably will be flamed but those who's real intent is an audience and soapbox and who really are not interested in seeing things actually accomplished. Again, this is a general statement regarding what we ALL have seen take place. A forum post quickly can totally change from the topic to an avenue for one to vent their frustrations, emotions, or to try to get back when they feel they were wronged for whatever reason. I have been guilty of that. It never solves the problem but rather almost always causes hard feelings. Most of the rest of item # 3 was spot on and I could not have said it better.

 

In regards to item # 4; I addressed this previously because it is the one item I actually could intelligently comment on. When I became ATM, the VATUSA domain was offered to me as host for the ARTCC website. I immediately was suspicious and the first thing I thought of was VATUSA would control our site and tell us what we could and could not have there. I mentioned ARTCC's having independence and until the "wall" between VATSIM/VATUSA is removed no ATM I know would want it any different. Even with the immature ones who get their jollies form hacking and taking down these sites.

 

I hope this has addressed the list Bo posted. If it did not, any further discussion will take place one on one. In my opinion, like a lot of things in life, the intent of forums are good. However, for the most part, replying is futile. The vast majority appears to really only want to either get the last word or try to "one up" the person(s) they are replying to. The best medium we have now is Teamspeak. While it is not face to face it is the best we have. The VATUSA teamspeak address is rc.iremote.us:8770. The VAST majority of the ARTCC Staff members have taken the opportunity and talked with us. I am doing everything I can to show the ARTCC's and it's members that there is NO wall separating any of us. I am trying to be the VATUSA representative I wanted at this position. Notice I am not saying We? Not because your other VATUSA Staff members are not doing this, but rather because I think for the most part that has been shown. I have absolutely no control on what has happened in the past. I can now only try to change what is within my power. Ultimately, those individuals who founded VATSIM, along with the Board of Governors are the ones who make the changes. I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you that rating and raving and pointing fingers will not accomplish anything. In the years some of us has been here, has it? Getting involved elsewhere is how these things will be changed.

 

(Edited due to grammar)

[Tom Ferry 942166]

Just playing devils advocate here:

 

This is a volunteer organization? Not one staff member is required to be online a certain number of hours because that is what they are paid to do.

 

I guess my point is....how do you fire a bunch of volunteers?

 

Sure I understand the ATM's that aren't doing anything issue.....but how do you propose to seek out those people who are good enough for the job. Most people who are good enough for the job just don't want the job because of all the politics involved.

[Scott Johnston 890281]

Not one staff member is required to be online a certain number of hours because that is what they are paid to do.

That's what they volunteered to do. Being paid or not is irrelevant.

[Richard Gerrish]

This is a volunteer organization? Not one staff member is required to be online a certain number of hours because that is what they are paid to do.

 

in rural areas most villages are protected by a volunteer fire department. I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong the VFD where i grew up. the members did have time requirements to make whether it was training time, on call time, or number of responses to calls. they aren't paid to run into burning building and pull people out ect. but they signed up for it so they do it. If you take the job with its requirements(volunteer or not) do the job. yes things come up, but if they are constantly coming then it might be time to take time off or step down to a different role.

 

just my 2cents

[Tom Ferry 942166]

Still how do you propose to seek out people that are "qualified" for the position. Qualified applicants aren't exactly beating down the door.

 

I'll hold my comments about the analogy to a volunteer fire department because thats a whole different thread on another forum.

[Richard Gerrish]

I'll hold my comments about the analogy to a volunteer fire department because thats a whole different thread on another forum.

 

 

if not a vfd then there are also many other volunteer organizations that are run the exact same way. when you can't keep up or get burnt out by the requirements you step down and another person steps up. the cycle goes on. it should be no different here.

 

some times there might not be "qualified" applicants. That doesn't mean that they can't potentially grow into the position with support of members above and below them.

[Matthew Temple 880167]

I'll hold my comments about the analogy to a volunteer fire department because thats a whole different thread on another forum.

 

 

if not a vfd then there are also many other volunteer organizations that are run the exact same way. when you can't keep up or get burnt out by the requirements you step down and another person steps up. the cycle goes on. it should be no different here.

 

some times there might not be "qualified" applicants. That doesn't mean that they can't potentially grow into the position with support of members above and below them.

 

Richard,

 

When I became an ATM a long time ago, I thought it was going to be a very tuff task. I agree with you that someone who isn't "qualified" can grow with support. I know that I did with support from VATUSA and my controllers at ZHU.

 

However, in the old VATSIM (pre GRP, IMO), the environment was alot better for this growth to happen. Now, all that I see is distrust and fighting. I was USA1 for a very short time, and I got burned out fast because I realized that I was not going to please VATSIM and my ATM's at the same time. To be frank, I was honestly more on the side of the ATM's when it came to the upcoming policy changes, and I realized that I was not going to be able to get them what I thought was best.

 

The only hour requirement that i have ever seen on this network is some ARTCCs set minimum monthly control times. I haven't found a staff position yet, of course i haven't been looking too hard, that states "you must spend X hours per month online, etc"

 

Back in the day, most of your ATMs etc were online alot, not because they were necessarily better people, but the environment was more conductive to people going the extra mile.

 

I hope Alex and crew can get things going up again, however I think their hands are tied as much as anyone elses.

 

My suggestion to fix the problems...

 

Suspend the GRP for 1 year and see what happens. I think the overall mood in VATUSA will improve greatly. I might just even bet a steak dinner on that one.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Suspend the GRP for 1 year and see what happens. I think the overall mood in VATUSA will improve greatly. I might just even bet a steak dinner on that one.

(By no means personal, but...) Yikes! See how that would go down with the ATMs and TAs .

[Matthew Temple 880167]

Harold,

 

Nothing personal taken. Yes, it would be a PIB in the short term, bit I feel the long term benefitd would be worth it

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Suspend the GRP for 1 year and see what happens. I think the overall mood in VATUSA will improve greatly. I might just even bet a steak dinner on that one.

(By no means personal, but...) Yikes! See how that would go down with the ATMs and TAs .

 

I'd have to agree with Harold on this one. I believe we have made great strides in the GRP Review process that included Division and Region staff, in addition to the EC, BoG, and Founders. I believe the efforts of these individuals has led to great progress in tweaking the policy to fit the needs of the facilities while still holding true to the Founders' Intent.

 

Since the policy will not be going anywhere (quoted from the Founders' letter), I believe we are very happy to see the new changes and I can testify to the fact that it is an improvement upon the first draft. Most ARTCCs have welcomed the addition of the S2 rating to the GRP structure since it allows the student to get online in a short amount of time since they must only demonstrate competence on ground.

 

At any rate, I believe the primary focus within the division is placed upon the method for which divison operations take place. I'm working hard to remain committed to my promise to remain open and transparent with regards to policy revision and our forward progress. I have many flaws just like the rest of us, so I must always strive to provide personal restraint in many situations. The good thing is that I always encourage the sharing of ideas and opinions from everyone who I serve as long as they are communicated in an appropriate manner. In important part of improving the division is the ability to remain focused on positive change and not incorporate personal attacks into the mix. Each Director before me was committed to the same success that we seek, and each performed actions that they thought were best for the division. Their intent remained positive, as does mine, yet many of us may see different avenues for reaching our goals.

 

There are priorities that we have in place collectively as a staff. Most of the changes that I intend to make are those which impact the most people. I believe the primary point of concern in these lists and complaints are the exact issues I'm trying to fix, but I can't just snap my fingers and see improvement. It takes a collective and mutual agreement among the entire staff, and our most hard-working individuals are those who hold positions within the ARTCCs. My goal is to correct our policies and how we handle business at the division level so that our p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion trickles down to the ARTCC level. I can only expect our ARTCC leaders to improve upon their handling of matters when they have an appropriate example (role model, if you will) at the division level. When our division staff is functioning with the values I'm working hard to instill, THEN we will see the changes at the ARTCC level.

 

All of us are p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ionate about this hobby. We just need to channel that energy into ways that will benefit the entire network. Petty forum conflicts will only slow us down and keep us from making the changes that we all seek. I'm just as guilty as everyone else when it comes to letting our p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion get the best of us.

 

Hopefully that clears the air a bit. My plans are posted in the VATUSA Forums on our website and I am always open to new ideas. All I ask is that we be given the courtesy of an adequate amount of time to allow for these changes to be made.

 

Regards,

[Matthew Temple 880167]

Alex,

 

I hope your plan works to perfection. I think you have good people around you, to make it work. Just don't let the man keep you down!

 

 

Good Luck

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Well, I'm glad to see that this thread has sparked some legitimate dialogue and made people aware of the real goings-on....

 

Ernesto....

 

Only time will tell how accurate my statement of VATSIM being gone before the end of the year is. I will gladly, publicly, and very happily eat my foot, crow, humble pie, or whatever else you think I should eat if I am wrong. Let's hope that I am. Understand; I am not "them" and I have not ever "cried wolf". But.... let's hope that I'm just one of "them" who "cried wolf". The beer will be on me, and we'll drink to me being wrong. Deal?

[Anthony Baker 1080999]

Well, I'm glad to see that this thread has sparked some legitimate dialogue and made people aware of the real goings-on....

 

Ernesto....

 

Only time will tell how accurate my statement of VATSIM being gone before the end of the year is. I will gladly, publicly, and very happily eat my foot, crow, humble pie, or whatever else you think I should eat if I am wrong. Let's hope that I am. Understand; I am not "them" and I have not ever "cried wolf". But.... let's hope that I'm just one of "them" who "cried wolf". The beer will be on me, and we'll drink to me being wrong. Deal?

 

May I suggest you eat a Cessna 172 covered on humble pie.

 

But hey you never know anything can happen in 6 months.

 

Lets all hope that it is good and not bad.

 

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

im down for a pizza covered cessna a little wine on the side and we're good

[Sebastien Bartosz]

1. The biggest issue plaguing VATSIM is an attitude of ambivalence. From the top to the bottom. Founders, BoG, the divisions and regions. Whether it is the current economic state, or just fatigue from playing the charade for so long, people simply don’t care. There are BoG members who are in positions that REQUIRE online time who haven’t been online in 9 months. Yet, there is no accountability anywhere. As far as VATUSA goes, we have Directors who are never seen. There are ATM’s who hide behind the moniker of “working offline” to shirk the on-line time and accountability that the position demands. There are real people who demand the attention of these leaders. ATM’s that can’t, don’t, and won’t meet minimum online times that they wrote into their policies for months is unacceptable. There are people who don’t even give the common courtesy of a reply to the receipt of a resume sent in for a position opening. Unacceptable, and completely unprofessional. But it is accepted with a reply of ‘I receive a billion emails a day, and I am not able to reply because I am too busy”.

 

I'd like to mimic this,

even though this is the US forum, and the posts so far are US related, I'd just like to say that in Europe, its the same situation in some cases, there are the "higher ranked" people who you NEVER see online whether it be controlling, flying, or OBS/SUP-ing. And like Bo said, there are some people who don't even take the time to reply to a simple email ! And again, like Bo sorta' said, if they don't have time to reply to an email, how do they have time to run whatever part of VATSIM they run !? Whether it be a region, or a vACC/vARTCC.

 

Sometimes when I'm bored at home, I look on the VATSIM forums to page 60 of a certain forum, I see a message from this important VATSIM person, I check out their forum profile (for fun...), and these very important VATSIM people haven't logged onto the forum since blablabla 2005 or whatever, or sometimes I even check their VATSIM stats (again, for the heck of it...). Yet, these people are so high in "the ranks"... what are they doing in their position if they never even come online? No idea.

Like Bo said, unacceptable.

 

 

Regards,

Sébastien.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

As predicted, I proposed that time would begin to reveal that everything that I was saying in this post is factual and accurate, it has.

 

On the 25th of July, a position opening was posted for the ATM position at ZAU. I, being well qualified to fill that vacancy threw my hat into the ring. Because (name removed) was removed as the ATM for allegedly improper reasons and circomestances, that position opened. There is an appeals process in place, yet, its effectiveness is definitely under scrutiny. Here we are on Sept 2, and there is still no OFFICIAL ATM announcement, though several have been made via email, and the ZAU forum:

(This thread is only viewable to members of the ARTCC)

Alex Bailey (Aug. 17, 2009)

 

Gentlemen,

 

I had expected to have the selection of your new ATM announced before today. However, I'm taking every precaution necessary to ensure the proper individual is selected. We had 10 applications for the position and a short list was developed based upon a few measurable factors. The short list consisted of the top 5 applicants and each were interviewed. This process has been the sticking point simply because we must coordinate schedules. It was important for us to interview each person so that we can get an idea of the plans they have for ZAU. Ultimately, ZAU deserves the best possible ATM who can handle the situation that you currently face.

 

Suffice to say, we have not made a selection. The panel consisting of Cornell Lloyd, Alan Hensley, and myself should be meeting very soon (today I would hope) to discuss the various options. This is our priority and we must all be satisfied with the individual who is appointed.

 

Thanks for your patience!

 

Alex

 

And again:

Alex Bailey (Aug 19, 2009)

As for the ATM selection, we have made the decision and will be letting the applicants and the future ATM know soon. Thanks for everyone's patience!

 

After the interview, I, and my fellow applicants, received an email from Cornell Lloyd who is the Regional Director (what do they do, again?),

Gentlemen,

 

I know I promised most, if not all of you, a decision by Saturday (yesterday) or Sunday (today). Unfortunately, a few "behind-the-scenes" speed-bumps are delaying the decision-making process. Please take heed in the fact that VATUSA is working diligently at coming to a decision in a timely, yet effective manner. A decision will be made soon. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Was this standard issue corporate VATSIM speak? I would believe so. No fault of Cornell's, he's just the yes guy in place to act as the intermediary between VATUSA1 and the ATM's.

 

Since that time, there have been no less than 2 announcements that the BoG, and Conflict Resolution, (honestly, I'm not sure who's got "the case" now) would have a decision. To date, there is still none.

 

If this is not a clear example of people not communicating, I ask any detractor to show me one. Interestingly enough, I have yet to receive one negative comment about any of my postings, so I'm not sure why I wrote that.

 

Does this beg the question: Why does it take 71 days for an appeal to go through the process? Are we curing cancer here? This is simply a reviewing of docomeents, conversations and other evidence, and making a decision. I believe that this has nothing to do with the availability of information in which to make a decision, rather a lack of communication between those required to make a decision. This further implies that there are people unwilling to perform the duties that they agreed to perform. I would offer that if an ATM didn't perform their duties for 71 days, that they would be removed long before that many days went by. Should the same, if not greater, expectations be placed on these VATSIM Staff members than those placed on a VATUSA Staff member? Why the discrepancy?

 

The members of VATSIM, VATUSA, and ZAU deserve far better than this. It is only because members have grown ambivalent, and fearful of some weird reprisal (not being nominated for a position they clearly would be the most qualified for..... for example) that they refuse to speak up. But, the time has come that if they have the desire to speak out, they should be allowed to, anonymously or otherwise. Ultimately, I believe that the Founders have the best interest in mind with this network. They need to know the full depth and scope of what is happening to the members of their network.

[Justin A. Martin]

If you don't have the patience to wait for the right decision, what's the point of even applying? I want to know why it is so important to you that a fast decision is made, when VATUSA and the BoG are clearly trying to do all in their mind to make the best decision for the state of the ARTCC. There are details that you and me don't know, and it's not our place to. Why try and rush the people with the already difficult jobs in making their decision? If you're that impatient, I recommend e-mailing VATUSA1 directly rather than creating a forum post if you're that concerned about it.

 

And do you really know that they aren't communicating, or is that just your "[Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption"?

 

Calm down, take a Xanax or something, give it a little more time, and hopefully the perfect decision will be made shortly. If that's too hard, again, maybe you should e-mail some people directly rather than complaining about it on a public forum... but that's just my two cents

 

JM

[Richard Gerrish]

if there's one thing i've learned it that there is not such thing as a "perfect" decision as there's always at least one person that won't like the decision that was made. So why prolong things by rehashing everything time and time again. All one has to do is to look at the US's current political issues that have been sitting in the same spot as they were before I could vote. Due process is a beautiful thing so long as the buck stops at the rules that in place to protect again abuse of power ect. Unfortunately many times politics seems to out way the law/rules and waste peoples time.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

If you don't have the patience to wait for the right decision, what's the point of even applying? I want to know why it is so important to you that a fast decision is made, when VATUSA and the BoG are clearly trying to do all in their mind to make the best decision for the state of the ARTCC. There are details that you and me don't know, and it's not our place to. Why try and rush the people with the already difficult jobs in making their decision? If you're that impatient, I recommend e-mailing VATUSA1 directly rather than creating a forum post if you're that concerned about it.

 

And do you really know that they aren't communicating, or is that just your "[Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption"?

 

Calm down, take a Xanax or something, give it a little more time, and hopefully the perfect decision will be made shortly. If that's too hard, again, maybe you should e-mail some people directly rather than complaining about it on a public forum... but that's just my two cents

 

JM

 

Quite fitting you would mention Xanax as I see you are a pharm tech (oh, and no thanks to your offer of trying to "dumb me down" because I choose to use my voice. Can the Government not come up with a better alternative than a chemically created substance to try to control my thoughts and actions? /End rant). So, that leads me to ask a question. What would happen to your job should you decide to take 71 days to fill a prescription? Do we need to "[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume" an answer to this question too? Oh, right but you get PAID to fill prescripts. Sorry, that bucket doesn't hold water.

 

I also had a suspect idea that someone (you) would see this post, and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that this gripe is about me. What you very clearly missed is that there is a roster of 70+ individuals who have had line of BS after line of BS thrown upon them. That's just one ARTCC. We haven't even begun to get into the egregious actions of some folks who simply use this "anonymous virtual environment" to fuel their narcissistic behavior because this stuff wouldn't even get off the ground, let alone fly, if done in a real professional, or corporate environment

 

Emailing someone? Uh, well, that is a fantastic idea, and so very clever EXCEPT; Around VATSIM "I didn't get your email (though you possess a read receipt...)" is deemed an acceptable scapegoat to being asked tough questions. Further, (I'll entertain this concept with you as you appear to have a little less time on the network than a lot of folks) email is used as "the rug". What happens when you have an issue? It gets swept under the rug. Additionally, it's just as easy to post an email thread as it is to make a forum post here for the potential new members, current members, and former members to see.

 

I'll say it to you very simply. The system is broken, and needs to be overhauled. Or, we'll lose the network, and start from square one. This network takes real money from real people to make it work. When real people stop paying real money to real companies, they really do turn the power off. Well, real people have stopped paying real money to real companies. And now, the burden is being placed squarely onto those who never thought they'd incur the responsibility of having to be fiscally responsible for the network...... You'll see. Or maybe I really am talking out of my Uranus. Guess time will tell.....

[Jeff Thomas]

I want to know why it is so important to you that a fast decision is made, when VATUSA and the BoG are clearly trying to do all in their mind to make the best decision for the state of the ARTCC.

71 days is not a "fast decision"...and you have no proof that the BoG or anyone is doing anything to resolve the situation. Doesn't mean it's not happening, just that the communication has been thin.

 

There are details that you and me don't know, and it's not our place to.

It is absolutely our place to know and question as the members of the organization! This is not life and death, and as far as I can tell, nothing illegal has occurred, so why not be transparent? If not for anything else than to allow the membership to see that "VATUSA and the BoG are clearly trying to do all..." Closed doors and whipsers are not good communication techniques and lead to suspicion and unrest.

 

This has gone on too long for something so trivial. My God man, this is just a game for Pete's sake. For the same reasons you tell Bo to chill out, I tell VATUSA and the BoG to chill out and just make a decision already.

 

Either swallow your pride and allow the old ZAU ATM back, or stick to your guns and just pick a new ATM.

 

Go Bo!