The List... (Edited)

[Ross Carlson]

Wow ... numerous verbose posts, a blog ... Bo, where do you find the time?

[Justin A. Martin]

Bo,

 

While I see your point, and I understand it can be frustrating to all the members who are currently without an ATM at ZAU, what you need to understand is, in order for the right decision to be made, the BoG may need time to review. Don't get me wrong... I know you all are anxious and excited to find out who the new ATM is, but you have a DATM and VATUSA8 who are working together as ATM right now. Those capable individuals should be working well together to help ZAU continue on. What's frustrating is, no matter what, the BoG and VATUSA staff members are just going to look like a bunch of bad guys to you, regardless what they say. I'm here standing up for those who spend countless hours trying to move our network along. I'm saying, give them time, work with the DATM and VATUSA8 if you have issues, and when it's all said and done, you guys should be satisfied.

 

Jeff,

 

I never said 71 days was a fast decision. Re-read my post There are details that we don't need to know. There are details that we shouldn't know. Until this situation is said and done, you won't know most of the details. We've seen what's happened when people tell unofficial details to the public, and it doesn't go well especially for the parties involved.

 

I have complete trust that the individuals above us will do their best to complete this process in a timely manner. If you are that worried about it, somehow contact the correct individuals privately. It'll make it more pleasant for everyone.

 

JM

[Jeff Thomas]

Justin,

I did read, and quote, your post.

 

As a former member of the VATUSA staff, and developer of the PRC and the VATUSA Testing Center, I completely understand giving the process and the people time to do what they need to do. This is a virtual organization, and getting everyone together at the same time is often like herding cats. Thank goodness, international phone rates have dropped in the last few years

 

Be that as it may, having been a part of these types of "events" in the past, I know 71 days is outside the norm.

 

I will agree that ALL details are not necessary. We probably don't need to know the private one-on-one conversations, but the allegations and the process of events should be transparent so at a minimum, we the membership, can verify that our "higher ups" are on the "up and up" and not building their own little empires or fifedoms. Because we have headed outside the norm, it is even more important that they communicate so the membership doesn't get any more restless than we are.

 

I really don't think Bo's concern is over the ZAU boss either (although he does have a personal stake in the outcome for sure), but rather he is concerned about the leadership "style" of those "in power" today.

 

Blind trust is not always a good thing. Ask those that got snaked by what happened during the last days of SATCO. The goal of all of this discourse is to ensure our hobby can remain viable and nothing is done to irk those that DO spend countless hours and DOLLARS/EUROS providing services for us, and if they do decide to take their toys and go home, that we have a mitigation process (I know we do) in place to ensure we can continue to do what we all love

[Bo Gercke 845743]

....

 

We are done with the pleasantries. Stay tuned to the blog, and soon you will see that everything up top is not all gung-ho teamwork, unity, and purpose driven mission. If it were, I'd be inclined to be fully supportive of the BoG, the Founders, and the direction of this network. As we sit today, we are an multi-headed Medusa, each with its own mind, own agenda, and a plan to kill one of the other 17 heads. Yes, just like that. It will surface.

 

The beauty of anonymity is that people can share strings of emails that have occurred between differing parties. Those will be published shortly. Tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, or don't have the facts but, so far has there been a single response that has pointed to anything as factually inaccurate?

 

As far as ZAU goes, a decision has been made. It was made more than a week ago. Yet, still not announced. So why no announcement? Does this appear to be a unified, organized team? A team committed to the betterment of the membership as a whole?

 

Since this is no longer simply a VATUSA, but rather a VATSIM issue, can we move this to the General Discussion Forum, please?

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Since this is no longer simply a VATUSA, but rather a VATSIM issue, can we move this to the General Discussion Forum, please?

 

Nah, its still a VATUSA matter, not a global one, even though I am sure you are convinced a larger conspiricy exists. I haven't seen anything yet that suggests this has any impact beyond VATUSA. The choice of an ARTCC leader is certaily not a big deal outside of VATUSA.

 

The problem with anonymity is that leaves no one to be held to account if their information is false, misleading, or damaging. As much as you'd like to support a model that dissenting voices get deleted on this forum this very thread is evidence that you are wrong; people get their posts tossed for how they say it, but not for saying it. Say it responsibly and it will stay, as has this one, as you were advised when you first posted and your post was taken down due to possible CoC violations that could be tossed your way.

 

These Founders you continue to refer to who are about to pull the plug on VATSIM financially have the best seats in the house. Nothing is hidden from them. Hopefully, whomever is telling you this stuff will soon let us all in on it and we can get off 'Double Secret Probation" and address their concerns.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

....

 

Well, start with the ZAU ATM announcement, Kyle. Credibility comes in small steps. Tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, I'll tell everyone what I know, VATSIM will make an announcement, and we'll see if I was wrong. How about that?

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

You can start wherever you like, Bo.

 

It is really not all that clear to me what you think you are right about, other than we on the BoG are bent on destroying each other and VATSIM in the process and/or all the founders are lining up to pull their support of VATSIM.

 

Put the score card up, in clear and unambiguous language, free of hyperbole, and we'll keep score. The Marine in me says keep an eye on the squid at the scoreboard, though, lol.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

...

 

Guess you need to go back and do some re-reading to get up to speed on what the issues are in VATSIM. It may take you a while, so while you're doing that, I'll continue to read emails that have been p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed around by BoG members.

[George Marinakis]

So let me see if I understand you correctly....you are coming on to a VATSIM forum and openly admitting that you have access to the BOG mail list and are reading those private emails? And you are actually bragging about this?

 

You've really thought this through carefully haven't you?

[Bo Gercke 845743]

delete this post please.

Edited September 4, 2009 at 07:06 AM by Guest

[Bo Gercke 845743]

delete this post please.

Edited September 4, 2009 at 07:06 AM by Guest

[Bo Gercke 845743]

Since I have your attention: Why no announcement about the ZAU ATM situation? Why has it taken 71+ days to rectify a situation that should have taken days to resolve?

 

You can continue to try to change the subject, discredit me, threaten me, attempt to intimidate me, and coerce me all that you want, but at the end of the day, it is YOU that has a responsibility and an obligation to act in a manner that is in the best interest of the members of this network. You also have a responsibility to either allow the people that you nominated to lead to do so, or flat out remove them, and run this organization as the little fiefdom that it is becoming. But do not bring people in to lead the network, have multiple people make a decision and garner support for that decision, and because of your own personal agendas seek to undermine those that you entrusted to lead the organization. I'll bet you are thinking that I am only talking about the division level. I am not. I am talking about the corruption at the highest levels. I am guessing that you think that because I'm not "one of you" that I'm clueless and have no idea what I'm talking about. Typical.

 

I am under no obligation to reveal the sources of my information. It does not mean that I have access to the BoG mailing list, but that was a very hearty effort, George.

Edited September 4, 2009 at 07:22 AM by Guest

[Brad Littlejohn]

Since I have your attention: Why no announcement about the ZAU ATM situation? Why has it taken 71+ days to rectify a situation that should have taken days to resolve?

 

You can continue to try to change the subject, discredit me, threaten me, attempt to intimidate me, and coerce me all that you want, but at the end of the day, it is YOU that has a responsibility and an obligation to act in a manner that is in the best interest of the members of this network. You also have a responsibility to either allow the people that you nominated to lead to do so, or flat out remove them, and run this organization as the little fiefdom that it is becoming. But do not bring people in to lead the network, have multiple people make a decision and garner support for that decision, and because of your own personal agendas seek to undermine those that you entrusted to lead the organization.

 

So when is it a BOG issue to deal with something at the division level? They have bigger issues to deal with than a sector in a division in a division on a network.

 

Honestly, Bo, you're making a mountain out of a molehill, and quite frankly, the whinging/footstomping/grandstanding is getting rather old. I almost feel sorry for you.

 

BL.

[Graeme Florance 906409]

So when is it a BOG issue to deal with something at the division level? They have bigger issues to deal with than a sector in a division in a division on a network.

 

When the division level is not competent enough or capable enough to handle their business in an astute manner as has been the case for at least part of the 71+ days

 

Honestly, Bo, you're making a mountain out of a molehill, and quite frankly, the whinging/footstomping/grandstanding is getting rather old. I almost feel sorry for you.

 

Stop Reading !!!!!

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

how bout stop posting altogether?

 

altho i agreed with some of the original complaints made, its already starting to turn into a school yard tantrum. at some point you begin to discredit your own complaints.

 

i sympathize with the ZAU members, its ridiculous IMO to take this long to make a decision, even in a volunteer organization. this could have been done other ways, like for one instead of pulling the old ATM, which IMO was done by the heat of the moment, they could have given notice, started looking for someone new and then replaced with whoever is picked. we're all adults arent we? i'd expect an outgoing ATM to be able to show the inbound ATM the ropes or if not stay on until someone is chosen. if not then we reeeeeaaallly need to look into who it is we're hiring here.

 

however it wasnt done that way and you guys are stuck with no official ATM, altho people are in place to handle those duties. as long as theyre doing theyre jobs you guys arent sinking anytime soon.

 

however all that is a VATUSA issue, not a global one. theres a reason some of us have decided to move on into other regions and i dont see this going on anywhere but here. all these issues you have seem to be centered around US division. remember VATUSA is not VATSIM. theyre a division within VATSIM.

[Bo Gercke 845743]

This post is not about the ZAU ATM situation. I used the ZAU ATM situation, and it's outcome (because as I said, a decision has been made... It was made over a week ago) as one example to tie my original post together. There are so many situations which highlight these points, but the ZAU ATM situation was the was most current, and relevant. And, after seeing these emails, it proves 2 of the 3 points that I made.

 

You have a choice to enter this thread to read it. There's a reason that it has so many views. SOMEONE is interested. If you don't like what I am writing, don't read it. Just like a book, or a magazine. So far, there has been nothing posted that says that I am factually wrong.

 

Kyle has accused me of POSSIBLE CoC violations. Ok. Are they, or are they not violations? George has accused me of having the "golden key" and reading the BoG mailing list. I can't even say that without laughing it's so absurd. Ross has made a comment about what I do with the same 24 hrs in a day he has. THAT, my friends, is how the BoG operates. Deflect, diffuse, and deny. This has been getting increasingly worse for years. However, there is nothing posted that counters anything that I've posted. Nor have they attempted to address the questions that have been posted by any member of VATSIM, not just me. 71+ days.

 

Brad, give it a little time. I'll post everything up when I feel the time is right, and you can decide for yourself how much grandstanding, whining, complaining, and crying I am doing. Are you really under the impression that this issue is being handled at the division level? It left the division level within a week of his firing!

 

So... about that announcement. Are we any closer, yet? Why has there not been ANY form of announcement on this issue from any level in VATSIM?

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

 

Kyle has accused me of POSSIBLE CoC violations. Ok. Are they, or are they not violations?

 

 

Oh no, they were clearly violations of CoC A(1), your post was taken down to allow you to correct the post and repost it without the violations. You aren't the only person who has had this courtesy and will not likely be the last either.

 

When a traffic cop gives one a warning it can escalate into a full arrest if the person's mouth or actions brings it to that level; is that your desire? I still have a copy of your original post; would it make you feel better if I refered it to DCRM to see if they also think it violated CoC A(1)? We didn't think this required that level of attention but if you were disappointed that we didn't I will rectify that immediately.

[Ross Carlson]

Ross has made a comment about what I do with the same 24 hrs in a day he has. THAT, my friends, is how the BoG operates. Deflect, diffuse, and deny.

 

For the record, I'm not on the BoG. I have no official capacity in VATSIM management whatsoever.

 

Also, I was careful not to say anything in my comment that would indicate agreement or disagreement with your comments. All I said is "where do you find the time?" The only conclusion you could accurately jump to from that is that I am surprised at how much time and effort you are giving to something like this. The content, phrasing, and tone of your posts makes it sound like you are commenting on political corruption in a national government system, not the management of a flight sim hobbyist community. If I was as upset as you are with the way VATSIM is run, upset enough to spend so much time on the forums and create a blog, I would have walked away a LONG time ago, because I honestly feel my time would be better spent elsewhere. I seriously don't know whether to commend you or feel sorry for you. Someone like Graeme Florance will probably tell me to "stop reading", but like most humans, I tend to slow down and rubber-neck a car accident when I see one.

 

Again, no one should infer anything from my reply as to whether or not I agree with Bo. I'm not close enough to the situation to be able to form a substantiated opinion.

[Dan Everette]

It.....just....won't......die.....

 

[Richard Gerrish]

It.....just....won't......die.....

 

 

 

not today.....maybe tomorrow...or next week...................

[Justin A. Martin]

Ross has made a comment about what I do with the same 24 hrs in a day he has. THAT, my friends, is how the BoG operates. Deflect, diffuse, and deny.

 

For the record, I'm not on the BoG. I have no official capacity in VATSIM management whatsoever.

 

Also, I was careful not to say anything in my comment that would indicate agreement or disagreement with your comments. All I said is "where do you find the time?" The only conclusion you could accurately jump to from that is that I am surprised at how much time and effort you are giving to something like this. The content, phrasing, and tone of your posts makes it sound like you are commenting on political corruption in a national government system, not the management of a flight sim hobbyist community. If I was as upset as you are with the way VATSIM is run, upset enough to spend so much time on the forums and create a blog, I would have walked away a LONG time ago, because I honestly feel my time would be better spent elsewhere. I seriously don't know whether to commend you or feel sorry for you. Someone like Graeme Florance will probably tell me to "stop reading", but like most humans, I tend to slow down and rubber-neck a car accident when I see one.

 

Again, no one should infer anything from my reply as to whether or not I agree with Bo. I'm not close enough to the situation to be able to form a substantiated opinion.

 

Beautifully said.

 

JM

[Roy Evans 1061333]

While not an "official" member of ZAU, nor a member of VATUSA Staff, nor VATSIM staff, I think there's some merit to this debate. Regardless of your stance on the issues with ZAU and their ATM/ex-ATM/new-ATM, there's a problem here.

 

A decision was made to remove an ATM, a decision was made to hire a new ATM, and a decision was made to announce the new ATM. Yet, all of these decisions, the presumed day of the announcement of the new ATM, were reverted for what reason? If it was a rebuttal by the ex-ATM of ZAU, did he not have a deadline to submit his response to his firing, and was not a date set forth by the "governing body" to clear out this issue in either direction to avoid the time wasting process of hiring and announcing a new ATM?

 

If the "governing body" has a habit to go against their own rulings, or against the rulings of those who they themselves appoint and support, then how are we, as mere minions to their secret society, to support these unclear decision making processes, and the results of these?

 

And, speaking of this "governing body" picking their battles for reasons unknown to the VATSIM public, what about the many CoC violations that have been committed in regards to this issue? What about ATMs at other ARTCC's not following their own SOPs which their VATUSA leaders have approved?

 

There's a lot of problems here in the VATSIM world, and surely no network would be perfect, but if our "governing body" keeps picking and choosing their battles to suffice their own agendas, when will they realize the network is only to suffer?

 

I think it's time that we realize that the almighty power of the founders and the BoG are misaligned with the true intent of the VATSIM network and that one day soon in the future, we will have a network that promotes the goals and objectives of all of us and not a select few in the secret society.

[Anthony Baker 1080999]

While not an "official" member of ZAU, nor a member of VATUSA Staff, nor VATSIM staff, I think there's some merit to this debate. Regardless of your stance on the issues with ZAU and their ATM/ex-ATM/new-ATM, there's a problem here.

 

A decision was made to remove an ATM, a decision was made to hire a new ATM, and a decision was made to announce the new ATM. Yet, all of these decisions, the presumed day of the announcement of the new ATM, were reverted for what reason? If it was a rebuttal by the ex-ATM of ZAU, did he not have a deadline to submit his response to his firing, and was not a date set forth by the "governing body" to clear out this issue in either direction to avoid the time wasting process of hiring and announcing a new ATM?

 

If the "governing body" has a habit to go against their own rulings, or against the rulings of those who they themselves appoint and support, then how are we, as mere minions to their secret society, to support these unclear decision making processes, and the results of these?

 

And, speaking of this "governing body" picking their battles for reasons unknown to the VATSIM public, what about the many CoC violations that have been committed in regards to this issue? What about ATMs at other ARTCC's not following their own SOPs which their VATUSA leaders have approved?

 

There's a lot of problems here in the VATSIM world, and surely no network would be perfect, but if our "governing body" keeps picking and choosing their battles to suffice their own agendas, when will they realize the network is only to suffer?

 

I think it's time that we realize that the almighty power of the founders and the BoG are misaligned with the true intent of the VATSIM network and that one day soon in the future, we will have a network that promotes the goals and objectives of all of us and not a select few in the secret society.

 

couldn't had said it better myself

[Brad Littlejohn]

While not an "official" member of ZAU, nor a member of VATUSA Staff, nor VATSIM staff, I think there's some merit to this debate. Regardless of your stance on the issues with ZAU and their ATM/ex-ATM/new-ATM, there's a problem here.

 

A decision was made to remove an ATM, a decision was made to hire a new ATM, and a decision was made to announce the new ATM. Yet, all of these decisions, the presumed day of the announcement of the new ATM, were reverted for what reason? If it was a rebuttal by the ex-ATM of ZAU, did he not have a deadline to submit his response to his firing, and was not a date set forth by the "governing body" to clear out this issue in either direction to avoid the time wasting process of hiring and announcing a new ATM?

 

If the "governing body" has a habit to go against their own rulings, or against the rulings of those who they themselves appoint and support, then how are we, as mere minions to their secret society, to support these unclear decision making processes, and the results of these?

 

And, speaking of this "governing body" picking their battles for reasons unknown to the VATSIM public, what about the many CoC violations that have been committed in regards to this issue? What about ATMs at other ARTCC's not following their own SOPs which their VATUSA leaders have approved?

 

There's a lot of problems here in the VATSIM world, and surely no network would be perfect, but if our "governing body" keeps picking and choosing their battles to suffice their own agendas, when will they realize the network is only to suffer?

 

I think it's time that we realize that the almighty power of the founders and the BoG are misaligned with the true intent of the VATSIM network and that one day soon in the future, we will have a network that promotes the goals and objectives of all of us and not a select few in the secret society.

 

couldn't had said it better myself

 

I am not a VATSIM Staff member, BoG member, or anything outside my sector, so I have no political agenda here. But I am disgusted to hear that people think the Founders of this network are being equated to some good 'ol boys club, when I personally know otherwise. I have had the pleasure of having conversations with Harv on more than one occasion, and have found him to be one of the most humble and down to earth people I know.

 

I also have had the pleasure of meeting some of the BoG at the AVSIM conventions held over the years, and once again, know that they do not have one elitist bone in their body. Anyone who doubts this has my leave (as if it's needed) to inquire on any one of them. But this is beside the point.

 

I ask again, in which my question still has not been answered. What makes this a VATSIM (read: Founders/BoG issue) when this is involving one sector, in one region (VATUSA), in one division (VATNA), on this entire network (VATSIM)?

 

If this were a VATSIM issue, everyone would have problems. VATUK, VATEUR, VATEUD, VATROC, VATPAC, VATCA, VATSUR, etc. would all be up in arms. They aren't.

 

If this were a VATNA issue, VATUSA, VATCAN, VATMEX, and VATCAR would be up in arms. For the most, VATUSA isn't, and the rest aren't.

 

So what makes this a VATSIM issue, when this should only be a VATUSA issue, and concerning one sector in particular?

 

I'm still waiting for an answer, and so far the two protagonists of this issue have failed to respond.

 

BL.

[Graeme Florance 906409]

I'm still waiting for an answer, and so far the two protagonists of this issue have failed to respond.

BL.

 

VATUSA is a part of VATSIM and when they are not able to perform their duties adequately VATSIM becomes accountable as is currently the case. Which makes it a VATSIM issue

 

I hope you are not calling me people names Brad, that might just warrant a COC Violation.