PRC - Dublin Charts Issue

[Anthony Carbott]

Using the PRC to get SIDs and STARs for EIDW, the link is down, any ideas where or how else I can get them? I've searched online and couldn't come up with any.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

VATSIM Ireland website should have what you want

 

www.vateir.com

 

FIR websites are always the last ones people chec, should be the first IMO as they will have all the info, and keep it updated

[Anthony Carbott]

Thanks for that, then link I had didn't seem to work.

[Anthony Carbott]

One more question actually, where would it tell me which STAR to use? I'm looking hard for it. If I'm UK flying, usually I can find that on the Standard Route Docomeent AIP published by NATS.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

be listed in the charts. normally you want one the conforms to your route. i dont remember tho if they [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign it to you in dublin or if you need to file it. at most euro airports you just file up to the initial fix then atc [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns you the star

[Anthony Carbott]

This is what I mean though, you usually file it yourself. Such as in the UK AIP, it's in the route, but I can't find it in the route for this one. Maybe I'll file a flight plan with fingers crossed.

[James O Grady 904153]

The SID and STAR should be filed as part of the flightplan route, but ATC will always instruct you on what SID or STAR to fly anyway.

 

The Dublin SID and STAR charts on the VATeir site aren't working atm, but you can get them off the IAA site here: http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/aip_eidw_charts.htm

 

There are different STARs for different runways, so for example if runway 28 was active and you were flying in via BAGSO you would file the BAGSO3R STAR in your flightplan.

 

Make sure though to use the Aerodrome and Stand Charts available on the VATeir site as thats what all current scenery is based on.

[Anthony Carbott]

It's clearer now. I created a flight plan with http://www.vateir.com/routes.php from EGWW and my last waypoint was LIFFY. There isn't LIFFY on any STAR. So I created a plan with Flight Sim Commander and got, BAGSO, which of course there is BAGSO3R.

 

Odd, that different route planners will come up so far off.

[Anthony Carbott]

Ok, maybe it's not clear.

 

There was a bit of a cock up, where my arrival into EGGW should have been LORREL4A, apparently because I was FL270 and FL200+ uses LOREL4A arrival. WAL wasn't in my filed plan. From http://www.vateir.com/routes.php I get routes with a LOREL2M or ASKEY1H arrival. Also I found a plan with FINMA arrivals.

 

LOREL4F and ASKEY4F, I see no difference, why? See http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGGW/EG_AD_2_EGGW_7-1_en.pdf and http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGGW/EG_AD_2_EGGW_7-2_en.pdf

 

So, rather confused how to make this.

 

Like I said, my usual UK flights are from http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/srd/SRDDOC.pdf where it tells you which STAR to use.

 

I am searching, but I don't seem to find what I should be using. http://www.vateir.com/routes.php said one thing, Manchester control said something entirely different.

 

Basically, it was [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed I had WAL in my flight plan, which it wasn't. So why are there so many plans and how do I even know when I find one, if it's correct?

 

[James O Grady 904153]

Anthony I wouldn't use the routes feature on the VATeir website, its been discontinued from use by it's developer since the release of vroute, meaning VACCs can no longer add or edit routes in the EUroute database(which is what you got your route from). Individual SIDs or STARs should never be put into flightplan routes, if you ever see a particular SID or STAR in a route given by vroute, EURoute or any of those programs, ignore it. Often times you'll also see a particular flight level and speed put in the route too, because a pilot just copied and pasted their route into the database and didn't bother to remove elements of the route that shouldn't be there.

 

You're better off getting your routes from vroute, or if its a route between Ireland and Britain just use the Standard Routes Docomeent, most of the major routes are included in that. If its a flight from the UK, you could also use www.edi-gla.co.uk which has thousands of real world flightplans in it's database.

 

And again when figuring out what SID or STAR to fly, use your common sense. If you get a route that says to fly a SID for runway 36 when runway 18 is in use, you wouldn't file a SID for runway 36. If you find a route that gives a STAR for low level routings when you're flying a high level routing, you wouldn't file a STAR for a low level routing. Best advise I can give yeh is just to do a bit of planning before your flight, find out the active runway, look at the winds, look over the SID and STAR charts for your departure and arrival airport, and figure out what they're based on(i.e. aircraft type, runway, high level/low level routing etc) and then decide which to fly. Again though, ATC will instruct you on what to fly anyway, just follow whatever ATC tells you and you'll be grand.

[Anthony Carbott]

Thanks.

 

Vroute comes up with exactly the same set of choices. So again, I've no idea which one I should be using, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that I'm not meant to be using any one that I fancy?

 

Or was I mislead last night by Manchester Control who said my plan was wrong? Perhaps my plan wasn't wrong, but they wanted to change it a little by bringing me on a LOREL4F arrival from WAL, when WAL wasn't even in my flight plan.

 

I am using my 'common sense', but I'm not actually getting a route that tells me which STAR to use, that's possibly the problem. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but I've used the example with the Standard Route Docomeent for flying in the UK, it DOES specify which SID or STAR to use, but when out of the UK, I've seen nothing, only ambiguity.

 

And http://www.edi-gla.co.uk/ comes up as a white page at the moment.

[James O Grady 904153]

Ok I've just looked in vroute and theres 5 high level routes when there should only be 1, so thats probably not helped you. The route you should've used from EIDW to EGGW is LIFFY UL975 WAL, which is also the one listed in the SRD. As you're flying above FL245, and your route ends at WAL, you should fly the LOREL4F arrival, as described in the UK Charts.

 

No route given in programs like vroute should tell you what specific SID or STAR to fly because the routes are meant to be generic, and its up to you then to find out the runway in use and with that, and possibly other factors, decide then what particular SID or STAR to fly.

 

Also for edi-gla routes, use this link as the one I gave above isn't working anymore for some reason: http://www.edi-gla.co.uk/fpl/index.php

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

If you look at the ASKEY chart it says at the top VOR BPK u/s - that means it's for use when the BPK VOR is out of service, which it rarely is, especially on VATSIM.

 

As for deciding which STAR to use, it helps to understand the principles a bit. I'll try to explain it UK style with reference to Luton. If you look at the AIS index to Luton http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=95&Itemid=144.html you'll see it has a long list of STARS, but very helpfully puts a geographic direction on each one. So if you are arriving from Dublin, you need a North arrival. Ideally you'd want a Northwest arrival, but Luton doesn't have a separate one for that.

 

The North arrival is chart 7_1 Standard Arrival Chart - Instrument (STAR) - ICAO - London Luton via Lorel (north)

 

When you look at the chart you'll see there are two possible entry points for the STARS from the north: WAL and MCT. WAL is the nearest to DUB, so you need to plan your flight from DUB to get you to the WAL VOR. If you arrive off route, you may well conflict with aircraft on other routes, and it can get very hectic for the controller if every pilot just turns up from any old direction. So we do expect you to stick to the standard routes, unless there's a very good reason why not.

 

In fact the airways L975 and UL975 go directly from Dublin to WAL, entering UK airspace at LIFFY, so you can plan the route from Dublin to LIFFY and then use the SRD. However it's just as easy to work it out yourself.

 

Having got to WAL via the L975 there are two STARS, LOREL1H and LOREL4F. As you've already discovered, which one you use is decided on by what Flight Level you are at - again this is to minimise confliction with other routes. If you look at the table of text at the top of the chart, you'll see all the STARS for that page listed, and the appropriate flight levels are in the table against each one. It's not that long a flight, so most pilots tend to stay on the lower part of the airway and use LOREL1H

 

By the way, UK is different from Ireland, the STARS do not depend on the runway - they just get you to the hold (in this case LOREL) and from there you will be vectored to whichever runway is in use.

 

Regarding FINMA, this is just a waypoint on the LOREL STAR very close to CLIPY, which is where you turn torward BPK. It's used as turning point for low level traffic coming from DTY, so is irrelevant to the Dublin arrivals.

 

Does that help?

 

Ruth

[Anthony Carbott]

You're right, that didn't help!

 

Thanks for letting me know which one to use, I'll use that from now on. I just hope this doesn't happen with any other destination.

 

I made EGGW OLNEY UP6 RODOL UL28 PENIL UL70 BAGSO EIDW on Flight Sim Commander. All was fine when I requested clearance. I was told the SID, so I followed that through on my FMC and away I went.

 

Let's just hope the arrival goes as smooth!

[Anthony Carbott]

Arrival was fine, BAGSO3R.

 

I guess all the above was just a hell of a load of confusion from several flight plans where there should have been one!

 

Thanks for the help