Decent instructions

[Anthony Carbott]

I feel I must challange this.

 

Why is it, ATC give rather late instructions to decend? Often I'm having to go down steep to get level.

 

I'm I'm in London control, I should be given decent before being handed over to a controller over Irish skies, I consider.

 

Any thoughts? I can't be alone on this, surely.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

do you know what the LOA's are between the two FIR's?

 

dont expect to be given a decent when your FMS sais your TOD is. controllers dont know what your FMS is telling you, we just go by what the math tells us. sometimes youll get instructions before TOD, sometimes after. if you REALLY want to start down and you havent been instructed to descend just ask for lower

[Anthony Carbott]

Ok, so what does your math tell you then? Surely a controller needs to wonder when an aircraft is FL280 at 100nm or less from the arrival.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

my general rule of thumb, most jet aircraft can descend 10,000ft in 30 - 40 miles. multiply by distance and take your altitude into consideration, i got your descent

 

going by that, you were fine. but if you really wanted to start down, just ask and if it can be accommodated it will be issued

[Gunnar Lindahl]

If you think you have been forgotten about, just ask.

[Anthony Carbott]

The ambiguity is that sometimes ATC give descents, most time, they don't.

 

Plus, it's not a case of 'if I REALLY want to descend lower', it's infact a case of I NEED to, to be down in time.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

ATC has a perfect record, they have never left one up there.

 

Sometimes the decent is described in the STAR you are flying and ATC expects you to know this and will tell you to decend per the STAR, TOD is your call then, but anytime you want to go down just request lower, i.e., "XYZ_APP, BAW222 requests lower."

 

You are the pilot, you control your airplane. You aren't a victim of ATC's whims.

[Anthony Carbott]

It's confusing when I follow the STAR, but ATC takes me off it. Tonight, I almost had an incursion with Heathrow as a controller vectored me away from the STAR, then dissapeared for a while, no answering, so I natuarally had to vector myself to avoid Heathrow and get back to Luton.

 

 

From WAL to EGGW - Here's the STAR http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGGW/EG_AD_2_EGGW_7-1_en.pdf

 

So why send my south past CLIPY, past the chilterns and nearly over Heathrow, then dissapearing away from the control centre when I'm trying to get what's going on?

[Wycliffe Barrett]

Anyhony

 

Are you sure he went away or was it a simple case of him having to vector you around some traffic. Most controllers once they have an aircraft seldom just forget about them.

 

.Dont forget if a controller puts you on a radar heading you should stay on it until they contact you again.

 

Wycliffe

[Anthony Carbott]

There wasn't any other traffic. And he wasn't responding.

 

Surely you can't send someone into Heathrow to avoid traffic? That's madness. Why take me away from LOREL4F? From Clipy I should just follow it, I was told to fly 150, so I did, and getting near to Heathrow, I'm asking the controller why, as this isn't looking right, I never heard anything from him. Not until later on when he came back.

 

Just doesn't make sense to take someone away from a STAR by 'that' much. The STAR should take me on an eastern heading, north of Luton, then into runway 26, but I was sent south, to the east of the airport, which could cause an incursion with traffic leaving Luton.

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

If he wasn't responding it's more likely that he had a disconnect or there was a glitch in the system. So he may not even have been online to give you the turn. On the other hand, even real world controllers forget about aircraft sometimes (read the story of Mike Romeo http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/164502-long-downwind-leg-egll-22-2-05-a.html#post1764600 )

 

You don't say at what point you were told to fly a heading of 150. If it was before CLIPY then the most likely cause is that you were being separated from other aircraft flying on the same route. But you should normally be turned towards BKY round about CLIPY for the reasons you state.

 

The problem is that none of us were there, so we can't tell you what was in the controllers mind at the time. Did you ask him when he came back? If you want to discuss it further and maybe get feedback from the controller concerned I suggest you post on VATUK's own forum, as it's more likley to get read by the person concerned. Just be aware that the controllers are learning just as much as you are, and won't always get it perfect.

 

But sweeping statements like

Why is it, ATC give rather late instructions to decend?

when you have, at the time of this post, only 13 hours of online time with VATSIM is frankly insulting to the excellent level of service that our volunteers provide for the vast majority of the time.

 

As has already been said, if you need a descent before the controller tells you to, do what the real world pilots do and say "BAW157 request descent".

[Wycliffe Barrett]

anthony

 

Let me just say that perhaps the controller had an emergency or some such, but on the other hand let me p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] another viewpoint, often I will get pilots calling me either late or early.

 

Yes I know you will say that it is the controllers resposibility to know his airspace and who is inbound, true, but it is a two way street or airway.

 

For example the other evening a pilot called me entering my airspace very high and very fast, there was no way I could get him on the ILS by the normal vectoring and STAR routing, I had to give him vectors to the south of the airfield and bring him onto the ILS from the south rather than the north as would have been normal for the CDF1A Star.

 

Another pilot called me on Cardiff radar when he was over WAL after only departing Manchester, when I asked him to call at AMRAL explaining that he was outside my airspace he wasperfectly ok about it.

 

As I say its a two way street.

 

Have a good day.

 

Wycliffe

[Anthony Carbott]

If he wasn't responding it's more likely that he had a disconnect or there was a glitch in the system. So he may not even have been online to give you the turn. On the other hand, even real world controllers forget about aircraft sometimes (read the story of Mike Romeo http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/164502-long-downwind-leg-egll-22-2-05-a.html#post1764600 )

 

You don't say at what point you were told to fly a heading of 150. If it was before CLIPY then the most likely cause is that you were being separated from other aircraft flying on the same route. But you should normally be turned towards BKY round about CLIPY for the reasons you state.

 

The problem is that none of us were there, so we can't tell you what was in the controllers mind at the time. Did you ask him when he came back? If you want to discuss it further and maybe get feedback from the controller concerned I suggest you post on VATUK's own forum, as it's more likley to get read by the person concerned. Just be aware that the controllers are learning just as much as you are, and won't always get it perfect.

 

But sweeping statements like

Why is it, ATC give rather late instructions to decend?

when you have, at the time of this post, only 13 hours of online time with VATSIM is frankly insulting to the excellent level of service that our volunteers provide for the vast majority of the time.

 

As has already been said, if you need a descent before the controller tells you to, do what the real world pilots do and say "BAW157 request descent".

 

I was vectored at CLIPY and as you say, I should have been vectored to BKY, my thoughts also, but that didn't happen. I was nearly at Heathrow! I don't think Heathrow controllers would have been pleased!

 

Only 13 hours on VATSIM, yes that's true, but that's no measurement of my ability to follow my flight plan. That's just hours else where. I've nearly 2,000 hours without getting lost.

 

Yes, I asked when he came back, there was another pilot infact who PM'd me saying that he thinks the controller was new at this, so it seems I wasn't the only one who was a bit concerned.

 

I'll give it another go and see what happens.

 

If the controller does read this, there's no hard feelings, I'm prepeared to discuss it to establish what actually went wrong. I'm an open minded person who doesn't really do grudges.

[Wycliffe Barrett]

>Yes, I asked when he came back, there was another pilot infact who PM'd me saying that he thinks the controller was new at this, so it seems I wasn't the only one who was a bit concerned.

 

So you get information from another pilot who says i think he might be new atthis, this equates to perhaps being atthe start of his controlling career at Heathrow and you still think its fit to say you was concerned, as Ruth pointed out earlier it is alearning environement for all.

 

Without being harsh as you well know pilots can join VATSIM and be flying within 5 mins, whereas controllers have training, mentoring, over the shoulder checks, exams etc, and the pilots expectation is that they not only get perfect control but on some occasions tuition on how to fly their planes, program their FMC's and how to fly a SID.

 

A little slack might be order.

 

It would be nice once in awhile to see apost thanking a controller for their service as opposed to complainst, mind you I suppose that isn't good copy.

 

respectfully

[Anthony Carbott]

We would run out of room to constantly thank controllers after each flight.

 

As for the controlling career at Heathrow you mention, I don't know, I never spoke to anyone other than London control on that flight.

 

I know pilots can join after mins of flight, but as I say, I've nearly 2,000 hours, I know how to use my FMC, STARS and SIDS. I keep my Airac up to date.

 

Like I say, I don't hold grudges, just a good conversation trying to establish what happened, if I may. I guess we'll never know, but like I say, I'll have to see what happens in future VATSIM flights.

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

Only 13 hours on VATSIM, yes that's true, but that's no measurement of my ability to follow my flight plan. That's just hours else where. I've nearly 2,000 hours without getting lost.

 

 

I'll give it another go and see what happens.

 

If the controller does read this, there's no hard feelings, I'm prepeared to discuss it to establish what actually went wrong. I'm an open minded person who doesn't really do grudges.

 

I wasn't implying that you have a lack of flight sim experience. I was trying to point out that you were alleging that VATSIM ATC always gives late descents, and that you do NOT have sufficient online time to make such a sweeping statement. Put it down to experience or bad luck or something. We'll be happy to see you in Essex airspace again for another go.

 

Ruth

[tom van der elst]

but as I say, I've nearly 2,000 hours, I know how to use my FMC, STARS and SIDS. I keep my Airac up to date.

 

the hours say nothing.

I see you mention your FMC,your SIDS,your STARS,but I never once see you

mention the plane.

Can you fly the plane,ánd plan ahead?

 

FL280 at 100nm or less from the arrival.

 

rule of thumb : 3 x 28 = 84 + 10 = 94 so you were

"if you were at a hundred miles from the airport"

not really at the point where you'd háve to go down.

A quite normal descent would have been achieved well even from 80 miles out.

 

cheers

 

Tom.

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

For descent planning for Luton arrivals, the controller should aim to get you at FL200 at ROGBI, FL 150 at CLIPY, and FL80 at BKY. Remember the STAR takes you past Luton to BKY, and then you are vectored round via Busta, so there's at least another 30 miles compared with the direct route to Luton

 

Ruth

Edited August 30, 2009 at 11:30 PM by Guest

[James O Grady 904153]

FL280 at 100nm or less from the arrival.

 

rule of thumb : 3 x 28 = 84 + 10 = 94 so you were

"if you were at a hundred miles from the airport"

not really at the point where you'd háve to go down.

A quite normal descent would have been achieved well even from 80 miles out.

 

A much easier formula is to divide the FL by 3(e.g. 280/3).

[Anthony Carbott]

I'm going to see what happens on the next flight into Luton. See if I get taken off the STAR again and see who else is in the airspace if so.

[Wycliffe Barrett]

Anthony

 

You may well get taken off the STAR, if you was to fly into cradiff on a C1d arrival when you contact me or I contact you i would say "expector vectors to teh ILS rwy 30" at which point I can theoretically vector you anywhere within my airspace as long as it is safe and expeditious to do so.

 

Wycliffe

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

Anthony

 

You may well get taken off the STAR, if you was to fly into cradiff on a C1d arrival when you contact me or I contact you i would say "expector vectors to teh ILS rwy 30" at which point I can theoretically vector you anywhere within my airspace as long as it is safe and expeditious to do so.

 

Wycliffe

 

Yes, that's another possibility which I didn't mention. The official route from the end of the STAR really does go round the houses (or at least half of the LOREL hold). So if it's very quiet, and there's no outbounds climbing to the west from Stansted, it's possible to take the aircraft off the STAR and provide vectors direct to the ILS, cutting a good 30 or more miles off the route. You'll find the standard vectoring digram at http://www.vatsim-uk.org/regions/essex/downloads/Luton_vectoring.pdf

 

Ruth

[Callum McLoughlin]

Just to clarify, that's the "standard" vectoring diagram, not a concrete one. May I suggest the O/P has a go at controlling, it may be an eye-opening experience.

[Zafar Ballard 1021575]

Just putting together a few things from your posts- [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that you were flying into Dublin at FL280- the standing agreement between controllers in the UK and Ireland is to have you at FL200 by the sector boundary- which is 60nm from Dublin. FL280 at 100nm is well within that range.

 

ATC quite often have to take people off the standard routing- to avoid traffic, or just to give you a contonious descent. Unfortunately, as you couldn't get hold of the controller, his connection may have dropped out- or a server split occurred- so he was unable to vector you back.

 

Be careful when you have very few hours to make large sweeping statements, when you get down to the individual events, it looks like it is coming down to coincidence rather than a fundamental flaw.

[Anthony Carbott]

It's not a sweeping statement, I was simply asking why this was happening.