Intercepting aircraft in Scandinavia

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Folks,

 

I found this on the Scandinavian ACC site about mil flights:

VSOA pilots may intercept a Aircraft IF given approval by the other pilot. However it is preferd that the other pilot also is a member of a VSOA.

From http://www.vaccsca.org/atc/airspace/enmc

 

It is incorrect. VSOA members may not intercept anyone except another VSOA member from either the same organization or one where a formal exercise is under way with another VSOA and the intercept was set up in advance as a part of the exercise. Anyone, VSOA or otherwise, who intercepts another aircraft outside of this is subject to suspension so I do not advise it at all.

 

 

Can the responsible party(ies) please correct this docomeent and let me know that it got fixed?

[Martin Loxbo]

I suggest you contact the Norwegians by email, if you haven't already done so. I suspect there are a lot of people who do not frequent these forums.

[Hans Utne 813128]

Have sent a heads-up to the Norwegian FIR Director, with reference to this forum thread.

[Per Kristian Jensen 885486]

This will be corrected ASAP. It was my understanding of the rules, apperantly I was wrong. Will be fixed.

[Jonas Eberle]

I perceive that as overregulated and think an approval of the intercepted pilot should be enough. Who else should care if it is based on respect?

[Martin Loxbo]

I perceive that as overregulated and think an approval of the intercepted pilot should be enough. Who else should care if it is based on respect?

I agree! In fact, I think we should be allowed to intercept unresponsive aircraft. Now that would be as real as it gets!

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

I perceive that as overregulated and think an approval of the intercepted pilot should be enough. Who else should care if it is based on respect?

 

Why don't we just let you guys decide which VATSIM rules you like or don't like?

 

Before VSOA came along no intercepts at all were allowed; zero, ziltch, nada. In the charter of VSOA (then called IAMPSO) intercepts were allowed between VSOA members, or within a single VSOA. VSOA was built to allow these previously banned activites to exist on VATSIM in a controlled manner, that controlled manner in VATSIM today is VSOA membership of anyone doing them. And just being a VSOA pilot does not allow you to intercept anyone as any mission a VSOA pilot flies must be pre-approved by the organization's leadership.

 

Let me give a quick situation. I am tooling along in my Airbus and you call and ask if you can intercept me. I'm bored anyway so I say yes. You start the intercept and start to ask me to do things I don't understand (how many pilots on VATSIM know the procedures for an intercept?). Then I start to get agitated by the whole thing and don't want to play anymore, but you insist since I said OK earlier and now you got airplanes in the sky chasing me. I get mad, send a PM to a SUP, who suspends you and disconnects you. It goes to DCRM and you get to sit out a few weeks of flying.

 

Let me be a plain as I can - don't do it. If you want to do it, join a VSOA organization.

[Martin Loxbo]

I don't think Jonas or I was suggesting that anyone break the rules, but surely we are allowed to discuss the rules here?

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

We may disagree on if you were suggesting it or not, but we can for sure talk about it, as we are. I was merely, I hope, pointing out that the rules in VATSIM really aren't optional.

 

What else do you have for the conversation? I'm game.

[Martin Loxbo]

I don't really have much to add - I just thought your response was surprisingly defensive, so thanks for making it clear that the discussion is welcome.

 

In Sweden, which I am responsible for as FIR Director, we don't even have a VSOA, so if any special operations would take place, it would be against the VSOA regulations by definition. I don't think this has ever been a problem in practice though, as we don't see much military traffic.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Doesn't Per have a mil organization up there? What can we do to get them certified?

[Per Kristian Jensen 885486]

Kyle, if you mean me when you say "Per" then the answer is yes. We got Virtual Norwegian Air Force, but it has been pretty much closed because we for some reason lost our VSOA rating. As far as I can remember the VNoAF was VSOA some time ago, but then we lost it. Unfourntanley we do not have the time to put together the required docomeents and resources for VSOA, but I may think about getting it up, as I want to get VNoAF up and running. The reason is that I have been kicked out from Virtual NATO apperantley because of Complaints. My best guess is that they kicked me out because I wrote too much about the negative things of VNATO on their forum and what needed to be fixed.

 

At this point, I do not know my future in VNATO but I want to remain active within VATSIM for Special Ops. If its possible Kyle, VNoAF would like to become VSOA and I think that we could increase our activity alot with that. Because then we can actually use time to create docomeents and procedures that otherwise would not be use for.

 

 

Btw Kyle, I have changed the part about Intercepts.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

you dont have to be in VNATO to be an approved VSOA. i hope they didnt tell you that or misled you to believe that?

[Per Kristian Jensen 885486]

Ernesto, I said that the reason that Im thinking about starting VNoAF up and running is because I was kicked from Virtual NATO.

 

Eitherway, I have alot of toughts about VNoAF but I have to run them by the leader first. Initially my toughts are:

 

- Get rid of the seperate bases, and instead create Squadrons to make it easier for pilots

- Better training system, docomeents and easier access to those

- More realistic Missions

- Complete renewal of the Leaders of Squadrons/bases

- Create a OPFOR Squadron that will be able to operate OPFOR Aircrafts from Murmansk (As Kyle said, Intercepts may only be done within the VSOA)

- Renewal of webpages

- If possible, a Complete reset of the Pilot Database as there are waaay too many inactive pilots today

- 100% focus on VATSIM

 

 

This is given that we get VSOA Certified. The reason is that I do not feel like using time and effort on something that will be useless, as most of this will be without a VSOA Certification.

[Martin Loxbo]

Doesn't Per have a mil organization up there? What can we do to get them certified?

There is nothing in Sweden, probably because of a lack of interest in online military flying. I would love to see that change, as it would bring an interesting aspect to VATSIM, from an ATC perspective as well as from a pilot perspective.

 

After all we're a small country, but with a long and proud military aviation tradition (and big: at one point we had the world's fourth largest air force), and it would be great to see this reflected on VATSIM.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Me too, I'd like to see a VSOA or three in every FIR out there.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Kyle,

Before VSOA came along no intercepts at all were allowed; zero, ziltch, nada. In the charter of VSOA (then called IAMPSO) intercepts were allowed between VSOA members, or within a single VSOA. VSOA was built to allow these previously banned activites to exist on VATSIM in a controlled manner, that controlled manner in VATSIM today is VSOA membership of anyone doing them.

this is an interesting topic. I suggest that the BoG discusses this matter. As long as both parties agree, an intercept can be a lot of fun. If it is going too far for the intercepted pilot then the interceptor has to let go, that's it. Whenever me or others have intercepted unresponsive pilots or pilots who agreed to be intercepted, there was no problem at all in the end: the unresponsive pilot woke up because his TCAS was screaming at him and the other guys simply enjoyed it. In the real world it happens, too, and it is fun. Being a member of a VSOA is too complicated for most people. At VATSIM Germany we do have a OAT-Manual written by one of our real life controllers and this is the docomeent that we refer clueless pilots to, if we see some "fighters" chasing around.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Sorry, but until the rules change, they stand as they are and I expect SUPs to uphold them. Intercepts are one of the VSOA restricted operations.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Kyle,

 

that's not the answer that me and others expected from you. We expect to read "thanks for your suggestions, we shall discuss it and review the rules at our next meeting. We listen to our members.". Got the point that I was trying to make?

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Hi Kyle,

 

that's not the answer that me and others expected from you. We expect to read "thanks for your suggestions, we shall discuss it and review the rules at our next meeting. We listen to our members.". Got the point that I was trying to make?

 

The rules in VATSIM are under consideration all the time. Sometimes it comes from suggestions seen here, sometimes not. I have no information that suggests the Founders or the BoG want to move intercepts or any of the other VSOA restrcited activities out of the restricted status. If it comes up, I'll be happy to say that Andreas thinks we should let anyone do them anytime they want, how's that? For full disclosure, I am against the idea myself and shall vote accordingly unless something else changes.

 

Let's take intercepts and suppose BoG decided, yeah, let's go back to the wild wild west and allow pilots to fly whatever and wherever they want, intercepts and all. Put in the rule that says you have to get permission before doing it, or in the situations you highlighted above, no warning, sneak up on an unattended connection and pop their TCAS.

 

You SUPs would be much busier than you are today refereeing fights between the intercepted and the interceptor, both insisting they are in the right and the other party should be punished/removed. It is just too slippery of a slope, and that is why it was placed in VSOA as a restricted activity which is highly regulated, far, far, more than any normal pilot on VATSIM.

 

So, if you want to do intercepts, join a VSOA. If you don't want to join a VSOA, no intercepts. I hope you get the point I am making.

[Stefan Hueneburg 1062056]

So, if you want to do intercepts, join a VSOA. If you don't want to join a VSOA, no intercepts.

 

I think this point is crystal clear , however in some areas there are very few VSOAs, if any. In addition, in some coutries, VSOA ops are limited due to legal restrictions (confidentiality) of r/w procedures.

 

As I understand the vatsim regulations, formation flying from point A to point B is allowed, and therefore also splitting and joining formations. If you do intercepts as part of formation flying (with formation callsigns), I don't know if its a problem.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

The only resemblance between intercepts and formation flight is two or more airplanes are really close together. After that, no resemblance at all. I get the same arguement from the refuelers - hey, this is just formation flight. Having been in a C-130 refueling sqdrn in the USMC I can tell you once again the two don't really have a lot to do with each other except close proximity of aircraft.

 

VSOA was stood up to allow practices that were on the verge of being banned altogether. Rob Phillips rallied a few of the existing mil orgs and pitched the BoG on a sanctioning program that would keep these sorts of activities alive to give ATC and pilots a fuller experience on VATSIM, the hook being we will require superior training and command and control systems to keep the activities alive on VATSIM while also protecting the rest of VATSIM from the Mavericks who just want to buzz EHAM tower in their F-16s. Besides the very structured training and ops systems, pilots themselves can't go do VSOA ops just because they are in a VSOA, they have to have all missions and patrols pre-approved by their leadership. We certifiy organizations, not people, and this makes all the difference. I require them to perform a human observed checkride that covers their speicifc operations as well as how to interact with VATSIM properly. I encourage them to enter into LOAs with local ATC facilities to do operations more closely joined to busy airspace and to defuse confrontations with written agreements proactively.

 

I have been in this part of VATSIM since its inception and was in the leadership of a founding organization, the VUSCG. I take it very serously and I will not reduce the rigor of well developed training and command and control structre required to keep the reputation of VSOAs high and not reduce the value the existing VSOA have invested in VATSIM to date. I am quite proud of the pilots who represent VSOA organizations worldwide. I hope Rob Phillips is pleased with his legacy. Thanks Rob, from all of VSOA.

 

I am willing to use some common sense on building VSOAs worldwide. So, given I am not willing to relax on solid training programs and human observed checkrides, and command and control structures, where am I flexible:

 

* If rw docomeentation is not available for your part of the world for whatever reason, use somebody else's you think is relatively close

* Ficticious or historical organizations - we are a virtual world and have seen the success of many ficticious VAs; why should VSOA be different, as long as the quality is maintained. In some countries it may make more sense to present a combined forces organization vs single entities. I would love to see some historical pilots make flying clubs and fly their airplanes on VATSIM.

* Limited activity organizations. Some don't want shooter action, they want law enforcement, fire fighting, SAR, etc. more selective activities not related to combat operations. I am willing to certify organizations on a limited basis and they don't have to have formation flight or combat ops in their training plans thus the training can be more focused on the core ops they desire and you can go deep with realism on those.

 

There is probably some other areas I might be willing to listen to proposals on. Remember the areas I am unwilling to bend and go from there. Also remember that VSOA should be driven to interact with ATC more, not less, so proposals should be senstive to bringing the airplanes to controllers together as much as possible. I'll shut up for a while and let you guys chew on the above.

[Per Kristian Jensen 885486]

Kyle, now I may have misunderstood what the others in this discussion ment to say, but I think we all are trying to say that as long as you are a pilot in a VATSIM VSOA you may ask another pilot that is not in the same VSOA if its ok for him that you intercept him.

 

I dont think they are trying to say that they want it to be so that any pilot on VATSIM can do an intercept.

 

The thing of it is, if a pilot is member of a VSOA he should know better than to do an intercept on someone that does not want it.

 

Situation: (In this example I will use Virtual Norwegian Airforce and Virtual Russian Airforce and in this example, only VNoAF is VSOA Certified. (They arent really, but for the sake of this example lets say they are)

 

Pilot X is a member of VNoAF, based on the 331 Squadron in Bodo

Pilot Y is a member of Virtual Russian Air Force and is flying Long Range Bombers

 

Pilot Y departs with a TU95 for a routine patrol along the coast of Norway in International Airspace.

Pilot X spots the Aircraft on Servinfo, and starts up the Flightsim and places himself at Bodo.

 

At this time Pilot X has allready posted a QRA notice on the VNoAF forum, and have chosen a mission from the Misson Computer that is intended for an A-Scramble. (As this is QRA it is not fair to demand that each single flight is cleared by Senior Command)

 

Pilot X connects as EG01 F-16 at Bodo and takes of heading Northbound for the Russian Aircraft

 

At this point, for the sake of this example, a VNoAF approved Tactical Controller with C1 rating in VACCSCA has read the QRA Notice on forums and connects on ENMC_CTR (Norway Military Control)

 

Pilot X checks in with tactical and the controller gives Pilot X information about the situation and vectors for the Intercept, as well as a Clearence for Intercept followed by Mission Type and Requested information. (Information will be requested later) This would be said like this:

"TAC : EG01 Unidentified Aircraft, bullseye 030 110 Thirty-Two thousand feet, Track 250.

TAC : Your mission is Identification, bullseye 030 110 Thirty-Two thousand feet, track 250 bogey."

 

 

At this point, Pilot X contacts the russian aircraft by private message saying: "Good Evening this is X from the Virtual Norwegian Airforce. I have been scrambled for Air Superiority and request clearence to intercept you. The purpose is IDENTIFICATION."

 

Pilot Y answers X with: "Hello! You are Welcome to intercept me"

Pilot X answers back: "Thank you"

 

At this point Pilot X contacts ENMC_CTR and informs that he has been cleard Intercept by the pilot.

 

ENMC_CTR replies with Clearence for Intercept and Requested Information:

 

"TAC : EG01 cleard Intercept, and when the target is intercepted Viper request Type, Nationality markings and any abnormalities"

 

 

When Pilot X has reached the Russian TU95, he will contact ENMC_CTR giving him the Requested Information:

 

"Viper, the target is a 4 Engine Propeller Aircraft, Red Star on Tail, Tail number is 010. Appears to be a Tupolev 95. Sending Image for Confirmation via Delta Link"

 

At this point, Pilot X either return to base, or escorts the Russian Aircraft along the Norwegian border.

 

 

 

 

It is verry important to note that Intercepts are mostly not a situation where a Figher Aircraft is sent to force an Aircraft to land or force an aircraft to change course and turn away. Most of the time, Intercepts will be in case of Lost Comms (In real life, ATC dosent have "Contact Me" button they can press) and for Air Supperiority, or if an Aircraft has violated a Restricted Area, like the Cessna 172 I think most of us have heard about in Washington.

 

 

Now, if a situation should come up where a Pilot of a VSOA VA breaks these rules, and decide to Intercept an Aircraft without permission, or Intercepts an Aircraft with intentions to shoot it down, a SUP should be called and review the single situation. This is really easy to do, the SUP can just ask the Pilot that is beeing intercepted if he approved the intercept, and if the Pilot says no, then the SUP could remove the Pilot that is Intercepting the other aircraft from the network. Then the VSOA VA staff should be contacted and informed about this, and after an investigation of the case the pilot would if proper, be dismissed from that VSOA. Problem solved.

 

I can understand that you have to be a member of a VSOA to do Intercepts on VATSIM, but as I have written here I can not understand why VSOA pilots is only allowed to intercept another pilot of the VSOA. I think thats what we are trying to say here.

 

 

 

 

Puh, that was a very long reply of me, hope you can bear with me.

 

To the other people that have participated in this discussion, did I understand your point correctly?

 

 

 

Edit: Kyle, I may have asked questions in this reply that has been answered by you just before I posted this reply as I used quite a long time on writing this.

 

 

You need to remember that most VSOA's have a Training Programme that is waaay more stricter than you require. Virtual NATO for one, have a Entrance test to the VA itself, then you have to do a flight on One hour where you record the last 20minutes of the flight to get rating for the 737, then you have to do another checkride if you want to fly the AWACS, another if you want to fly the C5 and C17. And if you want to fly Fighter Aircrafts in Virtual NATO, you have to join their Subdivision, NRF. To join NRF, you need to complete a test that is on more than 100 Questions, formulated in a way that makes it seem like its taken straight out of a FAA PPL Exam.

 

 

And for vUSAF, the Training Programme is even longer, and will most likely take several weeks or months to complete.

 

This isnt really negative, because the result is Highly trained, and professional Pilots. They know that if they screw up they may get Disiplinary Action, and trust me after Several Weeks of Training in a Flightsim Group, you dont want to be kicked out because you were too Hotshot on the network.

 

 

What I am trying to say Kyle, is that I am totally with the rule that you have to be a member of a VSOA to do Intercepts and MIL Ops, but what I am against is the rule that says that VSOA Pilots that are highly trained is not allowed to Intercept another aircraft that has given permission. Another thing to remember is that the VSOA's I know (VNATO, VRNLAF, VRAF and VUSAF) will NEVER EVER intercept a Civilian Aircraft unless it is a Fixed Scenario during a Exercise.

 

It makes it really boring for VSOA pilots, especially in Norway to have to sit and watch a RFF aircraft flying along the Norwegian Border, knowing that he can not do anything at all.

 

The way you formulate your Examples Kyle, it sounds like you think that an Intercept is a situation where a Military Aircraft is flying towards another aircraft with the intentions to force it to land or force it to change course.

 

No offence, but open your eyes, this is not the case. We do Intercepts because it is Realistic, it is fun, and it gives verry good training.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

My eyes are wide open; I am the son of a USAF fighter pilot; dad flew the Weisbaden to Berlin Corridor in unarmed T-39's in the sixties, to be politically provocative to the East Germans and their Russian friends. This gets to the crux of your example and why VATSIM and VSOA is set up the way it is; apolitcal. These intercepts are about ID'ing other country's aircraft and keeping a level of political tension between each other; we don't have political counties in VATSIM so there is nothing to ID outside a part of docomeented operations.

 

We are apolitical and recognize no international boundaries at all. Airspace is what we focus on and a lot of it happens to be aligned along political boundaries. Thus even within VSOA just because there is a vUSAF does not mean they are enemies or allies with any real world USAF friend or foe. They cannot replicate any rw conflicts anywhere, even historical, where loss of life or political agendas are being enfored through armed combat. We even iscourage them from doing 'training ops' n rw conflict areas. In short, don't be provocative. This was one of the major fears before and after formation of VSOA, that these natural political entities will do things to and around each other to be politically provocative and cause disruption to the rest of VATSIM's ops.

 

Hasn't happened, to the credit of all the existing and former VSOAs. We have had a couple of instances of poor judgement but all parties have found common ground quickly in those events.

 

What happens if Russia and Sweden start a rw war (talking or with ammunition) with each other (God forbid and most unlikely of course), can you see how what you propose could quickly get out of hand?

 

We can set up VSOA's in your area such that these operations can happen. It may be more controlled than you like but I also think there is a lot of room in agreements between VSOAs and local ATC.

 

I got to go for a bit but thanks for the comments so far.

[Andreas Fuchs]

We have to find the right balance between regulation and over-regulation. At the moment I find this VSOA-stuff a bit over-regulated. For me the basics are: if both parties agree to a thing, it is okay. Although we have these rules and regs for VSOAs, we still have some kids afterburning Amsterdam Schipol with their F16s, we can't stop them from doing it, until it happens. Basically, Kyle, I agree with you. But we should seriously review if some of the rules can be adapted. I thought we were an "inclusive-community", not an "exclusive", see the letter of the founders, it is written there.

 

I do strongly believe that we will not see a significant increase of unwanted intercepts if we lift the requirement that both pilots need to be members of a VSOA. I don't expect the rise of the cowboys, because we can still chase those few idiots who decide to buzz someone's tail without asking. On the long run there will not be more cases of this kind than we have now. I am sure that anyways we are missing about 99% of these events happening. Nobody got harmed, we are just playing with pixels. And like in the real world it can be big fun to wake up that sleeping Air France pilot who has crossed several sectors without being responsive, rather than having a Supervisor trying to contact and finally disconnect him. Give that pilot a TCAS-RA and he'll be on the frequency It happens regularly in the real world. And for training fighter jets do intercept civil airplanes from time to time - of course they ask permission first. It happened to me as well a few years ago. Of course we agreed!