Karl Kornel 964857 Posted October 12, 2009 at 01:06 AM Posted October 12, 2009 at 01:06 AM Hello! I've recently been noticing something weird: If I have an inbound aircraft flying a STAR, when I go to the sector exit list to set the runway, ES replaces the STAR in the flight plan with the arrival airport and runway. In other words, I start with... AML J149 EMPTY CLANG5 ... and when I set runway 23L I get ... AML J149 EMPTY KIND/23L I have posted screen shots of both the before and the after. The same thing happens if I have an outbound aircraft flying a SID, and I set the runway in the departure list. I know that EuroScope might still remember which SID or STAR is being used (you can see in the after picture that ES still knew which STAR was in use), but it's really confusing for other controllers, especially non-ES controllers! A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todor Atanasov 878664 Posted October 12, 2009 at 07:23 AM Posted October 12, 2009 at 07:23 AM What you have to do Karl is to confirm(re-enter) the STAR/SID also after you change the runway. Keep in mind that you might have more the one STAR/SID for that Point and Rwy (for example with restrictions and without). When you confirm the STAR/SID the FP will be "AML J149 EMPTY CLANG5/23L". EuroScope BETA Tester/Board of Designers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kornel 964857 Posted October 12, 2009 at 07:30 AM Author Posted October 12, 2009 at 07:30 AM Hi Todor! OK, that is what I have been doing (to get the SID/STAR back into the flight plan). I'm sorry, though, that is still a little confusing to me! For each SID/STAR, I have entered which runways are valid for it, so if I set the runway, can EuroScope not say "OK, he set a new runway, but it is a valid runway for this SID/STAR, so I will re-enter the SID/STAR for the ATC"? Sorry if it sounds like I am complaining too much! A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todor Atanasov 878664 Posted October 12, 2009 at 08:20 AM Posted October 12, 2009 at 08:20 AM No. Some Airports have for example MOREK1A with no restrictions and MOREK1B when there is some open TSA for example for the same Rwy (where MOREK is one and the same point). ES can't know which SID to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign the first or the second. You as a ATC has to chose depends on the circomestances. Also there are SIDs for Jets and Prop planes. EuroScope BETA Tester/Board of Designers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kornel 964857 Posted October 21, 2009 at 07:18 AM Author Posted October 21, 2009 at 07:18 AM OK, I understand. This then is a major difference between Euro and US SIDs/STARs. The big differences, then, are: One SID/STAR will have multiple transitions/routings in it. One non-RNAV SID/STAR will have the same routings to multiple runways. Props and jets commonly follow the same SID/STAR, with different crossing altitudes.There are some that are jet-only and some that are prop-only, but many (most?) support both. We do have restricted areas, military operations areas, etc., but they are normally avoided by all of the routings. So in many ways it appears to me that the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption made by EuroScope does not really apply as much to the US airspace. Can I ask, then, that a feature request be submitted for a future version (not the version in beta, the version after that)? I would like to request a general setting: "Keep SID/STAR on runway change". A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Eberle Posted October 21, 2009 at 08:10 AM Posted October 21, 2009 at 08:10 AM "Keep SID/STAR on runway change". May I add "If the same SID/STAR exists for the new runway"? Gergely recently said that he thougt about how to reflect the US SIDSTAR/Transition model. It was proposed that one could define each combination as a single SID/STAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kornel 964857 Posted October 25, 2009 at 04:46 AM Author Posted October 25, 2009 at 04:46 AM May I add "If the same SID/STAR exists for the new runway"? Yes, absolutely, I should have included that! Gergely recently said that he thougt about how to reflect the US SIDSTAR/Transition model. It was proposed that one could define each combination as a single SID/STAR. I wonder, how would that be done, by somehow changing the name? I remember, our original beta EuroScope sector file had the transition as part of the SID/STAR name (for example, "BLGRS8.IIU"), but that didn't seem to work too well. A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Walton 1055592 Posted November 1, 2009 at 02:26 PM Posted November 1, 2009 at 02:26 PM I'm not sure but how hard would it be to read the first waypoint in a STAR file and determine that as the transition, then when there's multiple transitions for a star it would then read the flightplan of an aircraft, and use the waypoint prior to the "star" definition as the transition, then match up the route? IE: Aircraft files for KBCD XYZ ABC2 KWXY inbound to land runway 01R Airport has ABC2 star with NMO ABC2 transition, XYZ ABC2 transition. The aircraft would be routed via the STAR:KWXY:01R:XYZ JKL NMS WSA (all above are fake stars and airports) ES reads the flight plan from the aircraft and determines the ABC2 transition for the aircraft's flight plan is XYZ, then looks through the STAR lists for KWXY airport, 01R runway and XYZ as the first waypoint and uses that route. Basically adding another variable (the transition) to the loop that reads the star and finding that star and routing. Seems like that should be a pretty straight forward thing to do and it shouldn't comprise any current setups for euro flight plans since it would only have one setup for each airport and runway anyway... Tyler Walton - (C1) -vZKC Facility Engineer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Csernak Posted November 1, 2009 at 04:19 PM Posted November 1, 2009 at 04:19 PM The idea to make the STARs and the transitions independent are already here. Unfortunately there will be no change in this area in the next release. Karl's idea to keep the STAR after RWY change if available for the RWY is also a good idea. Gergely. EuroScope developer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Eberle Posted November 1, 2009 at 10:50 PM Posted November 1, 2009 at 10:50 PM I know, this has to be postponed after the next release, but I would like to voice it. I'd like to be able to select a STAR without selecting a runway as there are STARs that feed several runways. I would like to set the runway not earlier than when I told the pilot. A STAR/SID that serves several runways should not include setting of a runway. Imagine: EDDF:(25R||25L):GED25:GED MTR... // boolean OR EDDF:25*:GED25:GED MTR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kornel 964857 Posted November 2, 2009 at 08:19 AM Author Posted November 2, 2009 at 08:19 AM The idea to make the STARs and the transitions independent are already here. Unfortunately there will be no change in this area in the next release. Yes, I understand that it is too close to release, but it is still not the best situation. But I am not covering this here, I am covering this at http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=43933. Karl's idea to keep the STAR after RWY change if available for the RWY is also a good idea. That is not possible! A. Karl Kornel - vZID C1, FE, and Mentor Smoke Bomb! POOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergely Csernak Posted November 5, 2009 at 08:54 PM Posted November 5, 2009 at 08:54 PM Karl's idea to keep the STAR after RWY change if available for the RWY is also a good idea. That is not possible! Yes, it is not possible today. I wanted to say that it is a good idea to be implemented. Gergely. EuroScope developer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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