Jim Allan Posted October 24, 2009 at 07:36 PM Posted October 24, 2009 at 07:36 PM Gents, This question is directed to those who dictate airspace within the VATUSA and VATCAR regions. I am wondering, from a practical point of view, why the Turks and Caicos Islands falls under Miami Oceanic insted of N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au. Purely from a manning point of view, KZMO has not had manning covering this region in a very long time, where N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au has people that can and will cover. I realize that we try and emulate realworld coverage, but perhaps in this instance KZMO should fall under N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au's jurisdiction or that that this sector could be included within MYNN. As to the western part of KZMO, perhaps Huston oceanic could take that. Thoughts? Regards, Jim Allan/O C1 VATPAC visiting CZQM, KZAK, MYNN If you don't know the answer...at least make it sound convincing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted October 24, 2009 at 08:02 PM Posted October 24, 2009 at 08:02 PM ZMA actually does man this pretty frequently. they dont control the floor tho, above FL180 over n[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au, i forget about the rest of the airspace also remember theres nothing preventing one from becoming a visiting controller in ZMA in order to man this position http://www.zmaartcc.net the western part of the miami oceanic area is manned by Miami Center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Allan Posted October 24, 2009 at 08:08 PM Author Posted October 24, 2009 at 08:08 PM I understand your point, however, to me, mind you, it just seems logical to extend MYNN to include the T&Cs, as it is part of of the carribian and not make a oceanic horseshoe if you will. Jim If you don't know the answer...at least make it sound convincing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Rizzi 810637 Posted October 28, 2009 at 05:48 AM Posted October 28, 2009 at 05:48 AM To add to what Robbie said, I was one of those involved in the original discussions setting up this airspace with VATSIM and VATCAR. I don't recall it ever being suggested by anyone that the airspace of Turks and Caicos FIR would ever in any way be controlled by ZMA. As far as I know it is and has always been VATCAR airspace. As far as N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au Center "extending" east when they are online (in a manner similar to the way they currently extend, by LOA, "up" into Miami (east) Oceanic airspace when there is no Miami Oceanic controller online) that has always been determined by VATCAR policy and procedures. Practically I think all of us working that area have done whatever makes the most sense to give the best service to the pilots that fly there (about 10 flights a week in that airspace per vataware). As far as "cross coverage" arrangements in Miami (east) Oceanic airspace I think we have done as much as possible to facilitate as much cooperation with N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR as possible over the years. Currently I see only two names on the VATCAR N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR roster (and one has long been a visiting member of ZMA with Oceanic certification). The number of people interested in controlling that area has waxed and waned quite a bit over the years. There are, I believe, only four airports (MYNN. MYGF. MBPV, MBGT) with published instrument approaches in all of both the N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au and Turks and Caicos FIRs. Traffic levels are very light and much of it is VFR into and out of uncontrolled airports. Hope that clarifies - it's not that this issue hasn't been though about and discussed quite a bit over the years. Best Regards, C. Rizzi long retired - ZMA ATM, DATM, TA and whatever else [edit] - PS - As I think about it I believe that at one time Turks and Caicos FIR was essentially folded into N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR by VATCAR - I don't know what the VATCAR policy is now. Made sense at the time. Charles Rizzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bromback Posted November 10, 2009 at 06:38 AM Posted November 10, 2009 at 06:38 AM This topic of discussion never made sense to me on why VATSIM did this... I dont know if the ZMA folks know about this or not but MYNN FIR does not even exist in the RW...if VATSIM is here to simulate real world procedures (as much as possible) then why do we have a MYNN_CTR that can log on when none actually exist. The airspace above the Bahamas Islands is controlled by MIA_CTR until you get out far enough to reach oceanic, the underlying areas below 6000' is controlled by N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au Control or whatever approach serves that island. So why on VATSIM is there allowed to be a MYNN_CTR? Currently, we operate the oceanic airspace as Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G from SFC-700', Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E from 700'-FL180 and Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A FL180-FL600 Lets first get some facts straight on some of these cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es of airspace since you seem to be confused on this matter. Ok first with cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G airspace why in the world would you have it start and go only to 700' in oceanic airspace? It only goes up to 700' in more populated areas in the US Mainland with it going up to 1200' (if not higher) for the rest of the country. I cannot confirm what cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G ends at that far out due to lack of charts but I have to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume its close to what it is like off the coast of Florida....If you look at a VFR sectional and look about 10-15 miles off the coast of the US near FLL/MIA you will see a blue line just before the ADIZ, do you know what that is for? I am [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming not....This line depicts a change in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E airspace in areas where it is greater then 700ft AGL. Now look a little further out it reads in the middle of the ocean 2700'MSL. This tells pilots that Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E starts at 2700'MSL based that blue line! I would [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume its probably something very similar if not greater the further you go out into the ocean. My suggestion is to seriously take a look at your airspace depiction and try to make it a more realistic not just for the pilots, but for the controllers. Matt Bromback Air Traffic Manager N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Alvarez 818262 Posted November 10, 2009 at 06:56 AM Posted November 10, 2009 at 06:56 AM you may have to direct that one to vatcar. i do remember a while ago ZMA did try to add the MYNN FIR under ZMA's control since N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au was very inactive for a long time. they fought to keep it tho. they would be your best source for info. my bets on that it was done simply for VATSIM purposes, not realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bailey 969331 Posted November 10, 2009 at 09:58 PM Posted November 10, 2009 at 09:58 PM This topic of discussion never made sense to me on why VATSIM did this... I dont know if the ZMA folks know about this or not but MYNN FIR does not even exist in the RW...if VATSIM is here to simulate real world procedures (as much as possible) then why do we have a MYNN_CTR that can log on when none actually exist. The airspace above the Bahamas Islands is controlled by MIA_CTR until you get out far enough to reach oceanic, the underlying areas below 6000' is controlled by N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au Control or whatever approach serves that island. So why on VATSIM is there allowed to be a MYNN_CTR? Currently, we operate the oceanic airspace as Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G from SFC-700', Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E from 700'-FL180 and Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A FL180-FL600 Lets first get some facts straight on some of these cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es of airspace since you seem to be confused on this matter. Ok first with cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G airspace why in the world would you have it start and go only to 700' in oceanic airspace? It only goes up to 700' in more populated areas in the US Mainland with it going up to 1200' (if not higher) for the rest of the country. I cannot confirm what cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G ends at that far out due to lack of charts but I have to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume its close to what it is like off the coast of Florida....If you look at a VFR sectional and look about 10-15 miles off the coast of the US near FLL/MIA you will see a blue line just before the ADIZ, do you know what that is for? I am [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming not....This line depicts a change in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E airspace in areas where it is greater then 700ft AGL. Now look a little further out it reads in the middle of the ocean 2700'MSL. This tells pilots that Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E starts at 2700'MSL based that blue line! I would [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume its probably something very similar if not greater the further you go out into the ocean. My suggestion is to seriously take a look at your airspace depiction and try to make it a more realistic not just for the pilots, but for the controllers. The ZMA folks are very well aware that N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au does not have a center in the real world. They tried, but I haven't been able to see any progress made towards a Bahamas FIR which is mentioned in some docomeents as a proposal (real world). However, the VATSIM environment is not always going to mirror the real world because we try to always provide the best service to pilots. VATCAR has decided that this is achieved by having a N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au Center, an idea that I support in its entirety because otherwise it would rarely be staffed. This allows for more ATC coverage, thus a better service to pilots. As for your attack on Robbie due to how ZMA operates the airspace, you're correct that the base of the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E is 2700 MSL past the ADIZ, but that doesn't mean we have to follow that guidance exactly on VATSIM. The decision has been made to operate in a manner similar to the mainland airspace cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ifications for a few primary reasons. You should be thankful for the manner in which the LOA is established. It provides you, the pilot, with more comprehensive ATC services which should positively impact your VATSIM experience. Alex Bailey ZMA I-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Allan Posted November 10, 2009 at 11:27 PM Author Posted November 10, 2009 at 11:27 PM Guys, before this gets to be a 3 way gurdge match between VATUSA, VATCAR, and everyone else...I'm sorry to open this kettel of fish. It wan't ment for great debate, I just wanted to know as a visiting atc Jim A If you don't know the answer...at least make it sound convincing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bromback Posted November 13, 2009 at 08:24 PM Posted November 13, 2009 at 08:24 PM No grudge or bashing was intended by me either...I just wanted to know the understanding by the decision to do this was...which I kinda figured was for VATSIM purposes that Alex and Robbie explained Thank you! Matt Bromback Air Traffic Manager N[Mod - Happy Thoughts]au FIR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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