Significant change to taxi procedures effective 30 Jun 2010

[Ed Tomlinson 1014292]

The way the change is written, for each intervening runway (excepting multiples within 1000') the controller must either issue:

1) an explicit runway crossing clearance,

OR

2) an explicit hold short restriction.

 

There will NO LONGER be the implicit case where the pilot does not receive an instruction.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

why not get vatcan's input. canada has pretty much been operating this way for over decade according to one canadian controller i know. online they dont seem to have any issues doing it.

[Benton Wilmes]

why not get vatcan's input. canada has pretty much been operating this way for over decade according to one canadian controller i know. online they dont seem to have any issues doing it.

 

Canada also doesn't get near the amount of traffic that the US does...

[Manuel Manigault]

I do not see an issue with this if the aircraft only have to cross one runway in order to reach the active runway. You would just give the taxi instruction and tell the aircraft to cross the first runway (i.e Rwy 19 taxi via Juliet cross rwy 15.). There will be more freq congestion, however, if the aircraft have to cross multiple runways to reach the active. Then multiple instructions will need to be given.

[Phillip Speer]

why not get vatcan's input. canada has pretty much been operating this way for over decade according to one canadian controller i know. online they dont seem to have any issues doing it.

Canada also doesn't get near the amount of traffic that the US does...

Or Europe, it's been the standard over here for a while.

 

Phillip

[Scott DeWoody]

I don't see where all the confusion will come from ... the controller will either issue hold short instructions or he won't. Just like it is now. What am I missing?

 

That's what I'm screamin, jeeez

 

Plus, this "in the name of realism" thing. I think some are carrying that a little too far, for example, I had a 15yo, tell me that something that AvA does,(callsign requirements) isn't very realistic, my response to him was, how realistic is letting a 15yo fly a B763, but I don't hear anyone complaining about that... well, except maybe some controllers...

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

Gents, actually this makes sense,

 

All that's changing is simply the "phraseology method" for local to use to get the aircraft to the runway, where we will use the hold short phraseology that's been around forever anyway.

A good example is up at KSEA, when they are in south flow and departing aircraft on 16C. Currently as a pilot you would receive an instruction;

 

"N1234 taxi to runway 16C via Bravo" (many pilots have called asking if their okay to cross 16L)

 

Now with the new policy, the pilot would hear;

"N1234 runway 16C taxi via Bravo, cross runway 16R hold short 16C" (eliminates all confusion on the first transmission)

 

So this new instruction added 4 words to it, and eliminated an extra call from the pilot asking if it was okay to cross 16L, and the resulting reply from the controller.

So I ask you, what's more efficient in this scenario?

 

As far as the VATSIM'isms are concerned, when a center is working solo and providing tower services, simple;

 

"N1234 runway 25R taxi via Bravo hold short runway 25R".

Doesn't seem like rocket science!

[Ross Carlson]

Now with the new policy, the pilot would hear;

"N1234 runway 16C taxi via Bravo, cross runway 16R hold short 16C" (eliminates all confusion on the first transmission)

 

As was the case before this change came about, the "hold short 16C" part is not needed.

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

Agreed Ross,

 

But in VATSIM land it couldn't hurt!

[Ross Carlson]

Agreed Ross,

 

But in VATSIM land it couldn't hurt!

 

Ehhh ... I dunno about that. I could see pilots being confused when told to hold short of their departure runway. I would wonder if maybe 16C wasn't actually my departure runway ... maybe I heard the controller wrong (or he messed up the instruction) and actually 16R is my departure runway.

[Wade Williams 877539]

The only place where this phraseology will become an issue is for the approach or center controller working solo.

 

They simply can't have memorized every taxiway at every airport and don't always have time to look them up or even zoom in to see where at the field the plane is parked.

 

I plan to use the new phraseology at the major airports, but have every intention of using the old "taxi to" phraseology at smaller airports (unless my training department forbids me from doing so). I consider it a "VATSIMism" with which we have to live and not that big a deal.

[Ross Carlson]

You could also just treat non-major airports as uncontrolled, as many ARTCCs already do, thereby making the issue moot.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

You could also just treat non-major airports as uncontrolled, as many ARTCCs already do, thereby making the issue moot.

Wow, who does that? I knew ARTCCs could, but I've never actually seen anyone do it.

[Ross Carlson]

You could also just treat non-major airports as uncontrolled, as many ARTCCs already do, thereby making the issue moot.

Wow, who does that? I knew ARTCCs could, but I've never actually seen anyone do it.

 

Quite a few do, actually. Remember we're only talking about when there are only radar controllers online.

[Jeremy Bucholz 899127]

I don't see where all the confusion will come from ... the controller will either issue hold short instructions or he won't. Just like it is now. What am I missing?

 

That's what I'm screamin, jeeez

 

 

HA! Easy for you all to say, you won't have to say this new phraseology every day 100+ times. When we are in config 3 (land/depart the 1's, land 25L) 25R is an inactive runway and released to the ground controller as a taxiway. For air carriers to get to 1R, they must cross 25R at taxiway D. With the current and soon to be old system, only about 10% of pilots would verify to cross 25R. Now, we'll have to add 4 words to the phraseology, and bot to mention the pilot will read it back. Now, 4 words back and forth may not seem much to you, but when it gets busy, it will cause that much more of a delay. Not to mention, if our facility managers require us to issue the hold short instructions instead of giving an immediate crossing (believe me, they would make us do it) then the pilot has to read back the hold short instructions correctly. If they don't, we not only have to catch it or get a deal, but we have to sit there and get the pilot to read it back which isn't as easy as the .65 makes it seem. Do you know how many times a day I have to instruct a pilot coming off of 25L to read back hold short instructions at 25R? Much more than 10%. Pilots are lazy and think that taking shortcuts is ok. For example:

 

"turn left on alpha and hold short of the right at A7"

"hold short at A5"

"hold short of the inboard"

 

Even though we know what the pilot means, it's not correct and must correct them. Very difficult, especially if you get a frustrated pilot.

 

None of us REAL controllers are looking forward to thus change, and don't get me started on "line up and wait" lol.

[Nicholas Taylor 1104922]

I fly quite often in the RW and I admit, I'm really lazy and reading hold short instructions, especially at the runway. We'll pull up and get, "N8740P, Naples Tower, hold short 31, traffic on short final." So I'll say "Roger" and then he has to take time out to say "N8740P, read back hold short." Doesn't "Roger" mean "I acknowledge and understand what you said."?

[Jeremy Bucholz 899127]

Yes, however, it doesn't mean you will comply. This is where the "Wilco" comes in, but even if you say "Roger, Wilco" we still have to hear "hold short rwy 31".

[Ross Carlson]

Now, we'll have to add 4 words to the phraseology, and bot to mention the pilot will read it back. Now, 4 words back and forth may not seem much to you, but when it gets busy, it will cause that much more of a delay.

 

Jeremy, I'm not sure if you realize that I'm talking about VATSIM, not the real world here. Besides, I didn't say these new instructions wouldn't cause extra use of airtime.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

holding instructions always will require a readback to the controller

 

if you dont readback, and only say "roger", and you make an "oops", its going to be on the controller for not challenging it. now, if you readback the holding instructions and you make the "oops", its all on you

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Pilots are lazy and think that taking shortcuts is ok.

I feel ya, but still, that's quite the generalization.

[Jeremy Bucholz 899127]

Pilots are lazy and think that taking shortcuts is ok.

I feel ya, but still, that's quite the generalization.

 

Hey I'm not saying we aren't lazy either....we just get in trouble more often for it.

[Brad Littlejohn]

I fly quite often in the RW and I admit, I'm really lazy and reading hold short instructions, especially at the runway. We'll pull up and get, "N8740P, Naples Tower, hold short 31, traffic on short final." So I'll say "Roger" and then he has to take time out to say "N8740P, read back hold short." Doesn't "Roger" mean "I acknowledge and understand what you said."?

 

No. "Roger" only means that you have acknowledged the transmission, but does not mean that you understand or will comply with the instruction. When it comes to runway [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignments and hold short instructions, you must read back the instruction. If it is a hold short instruction with a runway included, you must read back the numbers as well. In Jeremy's case (which I listen to him constantly on the LiveATC feed), if a pilot shortcuts it, they will ask the pilot to read back 'hold short of runway 25R', and will wait until they get that back from the pilot.

 

It's cases like this where "Roger" just won't (and never will) cut it.

 

BL.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Jeremy,

 

What times do you typically work in the real world? I want to listen in!

[Richard Gerrish]

count me in too... would be great to listen and watch off Sunset

[Brad Littlejohn]

I don't know if Jeremy can post his schedule here..

 

The only way I was able to catch him is by recognizing his voice when he was flying in to KLAS and I happened to be controlling. Very few people have claimed to know the Henderson routing from the south, and when he responded that he did, popped atop my head (like Wile E. Coyote). Checked the callsign in ServInfo, and put one and one together.

 

Since I listen to the feed daily, at some point in the day, I catch him.

 

BL.