RUDE ATC'S

[Calvin Shultz 939902]

Larry, as a real world controller, this is a limit to how much we cater to pilots. Yes, we do as much as we can for the, but in the end you have to know when to say NO! Oh.... you want to land opposite direction during the push? No! Oh, you're a 172 wanting practice approaches and fly the full procedure during the push? No! Oh, you want to manuever VFR at 1500 feet just off the departure end of the runway for photos in towers airspace? No!

 

So... when a VATSIM pilot requests clearance to fly KJFK-KLAX via "direct GPS".... NO! And so on...

[tony moseley 1088954]

larry:In this case, Darrol and I perceived the controller might not have been as offensive as perceived by a newbie and felt the newbie should consider a little bit of consideration that he might have made a mistake. …Just a consideration,

The controller actually came back in this case and confirmed what I thought.

 

i think it would be better if everyone didn't worry about wether the familiarities of the Los Angeles Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo airspace" was the problem or wether a newbie could have perecived this or that or mis-understandings of procdeure and such like.

 

its plain and simple that telling someone they shouldn't be on here (vatsim) is rude, especially as the controller verified that the pilot and him were involved in discussing the finer details of the airspace they were in.

 

thats rude to me not matter how you dress it up.

[Larry James 901346]

larry:In this case, Darrol and I perceived the controller might not have been as offensive as perceived by a newbie and felt the newbie should consider a little bit of consideration that he might have made a mistake. …Just a consideration,

The controller actually came back in this case and confirmed what I thought.

 

i think it would be better if everyone didn't worry about wether the familiarities of the Los Angeles Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Bravo airspace" was the problem or wether a newbie could have perecived this or that or mis-understandings of procdeure and such like.

 

its plain and simple that telling someone they shouldn't be on here (vatsim) is rude, especially as the controller verified that the pilot and him were involved in discussing the finer details of the airspace they were in.

 

thats rude to me not matter how you dress it up.

 

You can always find something and say it was rude. When you hear one side, if you don’t consider there might have been some miscommunication you will always say the person was talking and the things they say are true and the other person was wrong. But a very fair minded person might feel that the person talking might be extremely bias and embellish parts.

 

The PRC suggests that a person should practice at facilities that are not busy. A friendly controller might tell a new pilot to do the same thing. It might be a suggestion. If the pilot comes back and say the controller told him to get out of his space because it was busy, I would agree that the controller should not have said that to a new user. I’d believe the controller should have helped the new user as much as he could in the spirit of the VATSIM mission.

 

That’s the way I would have felt. I would have agreed to the pilot that it sounded like the controller was being rude and out of order. But I would have told a new pilot that from my experience the controllers are generally enthusiastic hobbyist like him, that has done a lot of training and he might have misunderstood some of the controller’s intentions.

 

As far as “shouldn’t be here”, not trying to dress anything up, it sounded to me that the controller was saying the user shouldn’t be in his space doing what he was doing at the time, he should have been somewhere is in the virtual space with whatever maneuver he was trying to do. I might be wrong. But it doesn’t appear to me that the inference of (VATSIM) was something you threw in to ensure a conviction of the controller.

 

I understand your comp[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for the new user. I have the same comp[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for him. I also have comp[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for the controller and all the other users on VATSIM. I have apathy for how the new user felt when, as he said the controller told him, “not to read back instructions if I didn’t know what I was doing.” But at the same time I understand the controllers frustration when he had a contract with the pilot. I and he thought the pilot was going to do one thing because of the contract, then because of the pilot’s actions it became clear to him (from his training and experience) that the pilot was violating what they had agreed to.

 

It appears from my reading, that the new user was telling the controller that the controller didn’t know anything or didn’t have any authority solely based on the fact that he had done it (gotten away with it) before. I don’t think that’s grounds to be able to repeat an action that’s against the instructions of someone with authority (expertise). It happens in the real world. One bus driver will not say anything a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger that is eating, drinking and smoking on the bus. The two days later a bus driver tells the same p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger to put out his cigarette. The p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger shouldn’t bash that the driver is wrong solely because the previous bus driver didn’t catch what he was doing wrong.

 

I believe it might be hard for a controller not to appear rude when someone is arguing with them while they are trying to do their trained job and help them.

 

My comments are not to take sides. They are some intentions to convey the good spirit that I experience on the network and the fact that there is a chance the new user might have misunderstood something with the controller. I’m not saying this happened. But letting the new user know it could happen. I mentioned that it happened in my case. I have also read many messages in these forums where it has turned out that way with other new users just as it did with me when I was new.

 

I hope this consideration might inspire the new user to come back quicker and enjoy what VATSIM is about. The controller has also basically said the same thing. He apologized, thinking back that he might have appeared rude, but it wasn’t his intentions. My reading from both the message from the OP and the message from the controller, it appears that the controller was actually trying to help the new user and the new user didn’t realize it.

 

It’s really hard to learn all these things while you’re flying or controlling. But before Dean’s message, I thought a person could take a 747 and fly around in any controllers space and tell them they are sightseeing, he leave him along because there isn’t any traffic around and the controller isn’t busy. I’m not saying I’m that smart, but if it takes me a long a reading and still can’t be certain what controllers can tell the users and what the controller can’t tell the users is somewhat blurred, I can imagine how it might be to a new user. I just believe the new users and veteran users should somehow try to avoid arguing with the controllers and should comply the best they can and speak learn later what went wrong with a more amicable attitude… the type that in this case appears to be reflected by the controller’s post.

 

-- L. James

 

--

L. D. James

[email protected]

http://www.apollo3.com/~ljames

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi all,

...it's plain and simple that telling someone they shouldn't be on here (vatsim) is rude...

all who think this should consider the following (actually what Larry and others were trying to point out): probably the ATCO did not actually say or wanted to say, that this pilot "should not be here". Probably the pilot completely misunderstood the ATC-instruction and interpreted it in a 100% wrong way. As a SUP I see this kind of misunderstanding regularly.

[tony moseley 1088954]

As far as “shouldn’t be here”, not trying to dress anything up, it sounded to me that the controller was saying the user shouldn’t be in his space doing what he was doing at the time, he should have been somewhere is in the virtual space with whatever maneuver he was trying to do. I might be wrong. But it doesn’t appear to me that the inference of (VATSIM) was something you threw in to ensure a conviction of the controller.

 

i didn't throw anything in larry to convict the controller, the pilot stated he was told he shouldn't be on here and the controller has not said that wasn't the case, so unless something his posted to change those facts then i will understand it as its read.

 

perhaps larry you could read the post as it written and not omit the word "on" and change the meaning to IN.

 

if the pilot or controller posts different to that then that may change the meaning until then i would advise you larry not to do it yourself.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Tony,

 

we still operate with the principle "not guilty until proven". I strongly believe that the pilot misunderstood what the ATCO has written/said and made up an interpretation of his own.

[Mike Sweeney]

Good post Tom,

And not specific to this scenario, yes, there is a significant difference to remember between flying real world in cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo airspace in the USA, and when pilots fly online in the VATSIM environment.

 

As indicated, rw is pretty clear when ATC instructs and expects compliance. In the case of a request for vfr into bravo, unable means exactly that and the consequences of a mis-step can be significant, safety-wise and certificate-wise.

 

But VATSIM being a "learning environment" with chance of loss of life/property damage an almost impossible risk (unless a new pilot drives a virtual controller towards heart failure) and there is no known virtual FSDO equivalent here consider this:

 

- ATC restricts vfr to remain clear of cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo and obtains confirmation pilot understands what that means

- Pilot deviates and unknowningly penetrates cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo at 5,000

 

- Option A Solution: ATC instructs pilot to descend without delay below 3,000, and continue below 3,000 to remain clear of cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo airspace ... and maintain vfr

et voila, VATSIM exhibits the "learning environment"

 

Is this always feasible?

1. No, depends upon workload and controller's skill level and ability to manage pilot deviations.

2. Also depends upon the pilot's ability to comprehend a clear instruction not subject to confusion about expectations. Descend below 3,000 is plain enough for most to at least understand what that means. Non-native language speakers ... , try slower and clearer.

3. Also, depends upon pilot's level of flying skill to promptly comply. Have they wandered into the main arrival corridor, in busy airspace, which then requires disruptions to the other pilots who may then have to contend with new altitudes, headings, go-arounds etc. Is the new pilot able to quickly point the nose down, reduce power and descend ... or is the pilot more of a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger with the pilot in command duties delegated/deferred to an auto-pilot. That becomes problematic since a/p don't communicate well with ATC directly.

 

In that case, yes, atc moves to Option b to help the pilot along the lines of ... while you are welcome in VATSIM, for now you need to disconnect from the network without delay and reconnect in a less busy area. The PRC offers guidance and y'all come on back when it's not so busy or you're better able to manage heading and altitude. Bye for now.

 

Option B attempt doesn't get the desired result, don't sweat. Andreas gave you Option C at your disposal: call a Supervisor and emphasize you need a quick resolution/removal to avoid further disruption to other VATSIM members.

 

All sounds fine in theory, but in the heat of the moment and under perhaps a high volume of demand for ATC's attention to other area pilots, the message might not come out exactly that way.

 

Main point: empty Los Angeles cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo and a vfr violation of that space, no biggie. Do your job and "help" the pilot understand what the expectations are to comply with the original "remain clear of cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo" by explaining to him/her what to do with the aircraft. In VATSIM, you have greater latitude to help a pilot, than in a rw scenario where safety may be compromised.

 

Typically saturated LAX cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] bravo and be prepared: VATSIM members join at all levels of knowledge/skill, so you need to know how to direct them to disconnect with a firm, polite, and short explanation why.

 

Offered for consideration ... and hopefully all reasonable options, nothing rude and everyone's happy. Enjoy!

 

An alias text file in such situations to quickly point towards a useful offline reference:

.prc The Pilot Resource Center provides helpful information at http://www.vatsim.net/prc

[Jonas Eberle]

I have read a lot of familiar thoughts here...

 

Pilot might be new (or not - how to judge? Is he an ignorant pilot or just had a mishap like it could happen to anyone), made some mistake.

ATC is helpful, but might have workload.

It happens that this is not the only pilot in the last 10 minutes that has needed more attention than "normal".

ATC likes to simulate reality, but we are a learning environment.

Reasons for what just happened: misunderstanding? Have I been really clear in my instructions? Does he have charts? Maybe old charts where things have changed in the last 10 years?

I could have seen that earlier.

Reality would file a report and commence legal actions. Learning environment asks for my endless patience.

Also calling a SUP needs attention and you need to justify the case.

You might have overreacted on the frequency.

Pilot's enjoyment is gone, as shows the tone of his voice.

I feel embar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed.

 

I know these thoughts... ATCs are easiliy drawn to it.

 

Idealistic:

Be kind and precise all the times. If it happens, react quickly to your own overreaction. De-escalate in the first place. We need every pilot and every enjoyment. Don't be selfish, enjoy to educate. Enjoy yourself even if you need to play a different game than what you would like. Be a wise man/woman. Remember YOU are representing the network.

 

Pragmatic:

.PTM (German hint to our excellent Pilot Training Manual, written by Andi Fuchs)

.FORUM (German hint to our forum, stating that I have few time now to explain but that a forum search will help)

.RWY YOU ARE STANDING ON AN ACTIVE RUNWAY !!! Please log off immediately and reposition your aircraft to a gate or to general aviation.

.VATSIM If you want to learn more about flying at VATSIM look at the Pilot Manuals on the VATSIM Homepage: www.vatsim.net

.NEW For a comfortable start for both of us, please read the Pilot Etiquette Guide at http://usa-w.vatsim.net/prc/VPTPublic/pdfs/102.pdf , especially the first 3 pages.

.SCENEDDF It looks like you have a little offset in your scenery to the scenery we use at VATSIM. Please check www.vatsim-germany.org/airport/EDDF?LANGUAGE=EN to get a optimized airport layout. Thank you

 

Realistic:

Without any mandatory pilot exams, ATCs need to push some pilots to learn. Being overly kind and helpful means for some[/p] of them that everything is "shiny". Adjusting your tone is one signal that is understood across language barriers.

[Kirk Christie]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

[Richard Jenkins]

Frankly, controllers need to leave all the snarky comments out of their controller info. It just opens the field up for the games to begin.

[Phillip Speer]

Hi Kirk,

 

If you know the controller details can you PM me them so can re-eduacate the said controller.

 

Thanks

 

Phillip

[tom van der elst]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

 

What's exactly wrong with that?

It is 100% true,as far as I'm concerned,the charts for EGKK are free

and all you have to do to get them is punch in EGKK charts in google.

Ergo,no excuse not to have 'm.

It isn't rude,no-one is being called anything,only a fact is stated,period.

 

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

Hopefully they will react by googling the charts,if not,well,at least hé tried.

[Ryan Geckler]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

 

What's exactly wrong with that?

It is 100% true,as far as I'm concerned,the charts for EGKK are free

and all you have to do to get them is punch in EGKK charts in google.

Ergo,no excuse not to have 'm.

It isn't rude,no-one is being called anything,only a fact is stated,period.

 

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

Hopefully they will react by googling the charts,if not,well,at least hé tried.

 

+1

[Richard Jenkins]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

 

What's exactly wrong with that?

It is 100% true,as far as I'm concerned,the charts for EGKK are free

and all you have to do to get them is punch in EGKK charts in google.

Ergo,no excuse not to have 'm.

It isn't rude,no-one is being called anything,only a fact is stated,period.

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

Hopefully they will react by googling the charts,if not,well,at least hé tried.

 

Well...if the comment was helpful in the slightest, it might be okay. This is just a "snarky" comment that doesn't help the pilot in any manner, other than to let him know the controller already has an "attitude"....

 

Maybe instead of "No charts ... no excuse" he could have "These charts will help you -- http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html"

 

But no..some stupid comment will work much better.

 

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

 

I might adopt that here....

[Phillip Speer]

I'll speak out as the Instructor for the airport. I must admit that I agree with Richard. VATSIM is a learning environment and pilots need to learn. A new pilot to the airfield will see this and maybe think twice. An alternative could be to replace the third line with a link to the charts eg: Charts are strongly advised please see http://vatsim-uk.org/index.php?page=charts.

Conveys the same information but in a more helpful manner so the pilot knows where to find charts (note the official link is http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=93&Itemid=142.html which is way to long winded hence the link via the VATSIM-UK website).

 

Phillip

 

Edit Richard was posting at same time as me

[Ross Bristo 1010003]

You can always use TinyURL's. Here is one for Gatwick (EGKK) charts:- http://tinyurl.com/kkcharts

[Daniel Hawton]

My favorite is when you finally get a pilot to look at a chart, they open a hybrid departure that has them depart until X DME north of an airfield, turn left heading 270 and expect radar vectors and the pilot responds "Can I just get GPS direct instead of that ridiculous departure?" which happens to take them over a major airfield that is currently buzzing with traffic.

[Thomas Mathieu 998318]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

 

Same ole...Same ole...

 

I already thought we had a big discussion about controller info such as this? I guess, as long as we keep treating pilots like dirt, they will go somewhere else and we can enjoy an empty scope.

[tony moseley 1088954]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

 

What's exactly wrong with that?

It is 100% true,as far as I'm concerned,the charts for EGKK are free

and all you have to do to get them is punch in EGKK charts in google.

Ergo,no excuse not to have 'm.

It isn't rude,no-one is being called anything,only a fact is stated,period.

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

Hopefully they will react by googling the charts,if not,well,at least hé tried.

 

Well...if the comment was helpful in the slightest, it might be okay. This is just a "snarky" comment that doesn't help the pilot in any manner, other than to let him know the controller already has an "attitude"....

 

Maybe instead of "No charts ... no excuse" he could have "These charts will help you -- http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html"

 

But no..some stupid comment will work much better.

 

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

 

I might adopt that here....

 

+1 richard, i was online at the time and noticed the message and who put it on there.

 

it seemed worse to me because at the time it was quiet regards ATC on vatsim and that stuck out like a sore thumb as being rude and off putting especially to newbies who just would stay away from gatwick...perhaps thats the reason for the message

[Callum McLoughlin]

Unfortunately, it's something I have seen quite often - mainly in VATEUD rather than VATUK to be honest.

[Phillip Speer]

I am now aware of who the controller is thanks to those who;ve let me know.

 

Ross, good idea (always forget about those tinyURL's), might be worth suggesting them to NATS to make easier in the first place

 

Phillip

[tom van der elst]

Gotta love this EGKK_APP controller info

 

Gatwick Director ATIS 134.220

Departing A/C Calsign, SID, P[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing Altitude, cleared level

No charts ... no excuse

 

What's exactly wrong with that?

It is 100% true,as far as I'm concerned,the charts for EGKK are free

and all you have to do to get them is punch in EGKK charts in google.

Ergo,no excuse not to have 'm.

It isn't rude,no-one is being called anything,only a fact is stated,period.

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

Hopefully they will react by googling the charts,if not,well,at least hé tried.

 

Well...if the comment was helpful in the slightest, it might be okay. This is just a "snarky" comment that doesn't help the pilot in any manner, other than to let him know the controller already has an "attitude"....

 

Maybe instead of "No charts ... no excuse" he could have "These charts will help you -- http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.html"

 

But no..some stupid comment will work much better.

 

I don't regard it as a "stupid" comment myself,then again,I'm not from a country where such a remark

would be deemed especially snarky, rude, or out of line, so maybe that is the difference.

 

however,where I come from,it would be deemed a smart way to attend people to the fact there

really is no excuse for flying without freely available charts with a touch of humor.

It makes me wonder if you guys sit in front of the TV making complaints to marketing whizzkids also,

which use the very same method with great succes.

 

I'm getting sick of this "don't say nothing you might offend "someone" attitude around here."

Just say it,have it in the open,and let the other side react.

 

I might adopt that here....

 

 

I think that method was adopted at the birth of VATSIM or VATSIM probably wouldn't exist

 

Tom.

[Kirk Christie]

Tom, this sort of attitude displayed by the controller is un-acceptable, like it or not thats the way the world is heading, people will get offended, this comment is out right rude, and gives you the impression that unless you have charts your not welcome at EGKK.

 

There is no requirement for any one on vatsim to have charts, its a suggestion only, ATC have to remember they are there to provide a service to pilots, not dictate how they operate on the network.

 

As people have said a better way to approach this is, provide a link in your Controller info on where to get charts.

 

This sort of attitude of "Im the ATC you do as I say" i come across alot in Europe, and its disgusting, and off putting, and most likely why people are now voting with their feet when it comes to Networks, as can be seen in this thread http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50081 where Pilots and ATC are making the move to IVAO, and this attitude is hurting vatsim.

 

You cannot force pilots to:

Have charts

Have the Preferred route

Change their route because you said so

 

And the worst quote that i hear on VATSIM from ATC's and I hear it all to often is

 

"Im the ATC if you dont like it go fly offline"

[Ryan Geckler]

There is no requirement for any one on vatsim to have charts, its a suggestion only, ATC have to remember they are there to provide a service to pilots, not dictate how they operate on the network.

 

As people have said a better way to approach this is, provide a link in your Controller info on where to get charts.

 

So basically what you are saying is, put a link to charts in your controller info, but no one has to look at it or use them because it's not mandatory...

 

Wow, that sounds awesome.

[Kirk Christie]

There is no requirement for any one on vatsim to have charts, its a suggestion only, ATC have to remember they are there to provide a service to pilots, not dictate how they operate on the network.

 

As people have said a better way to approach this is, provide a link in your Controller info on where to get charts.

 

So basically what you are saying is, put a link to charts in your controller info, but no one has to look at it or use them because it's not mandatory...

 

Wow, that sounds awesome.

 

 

Its not, you show me where it says its mandatory for you to use charts on VATSIM