RUDE ATC'S

[tom van der elst]

Tom, this sort of attitude displayed by the controller is un-acceptable, like it or not thats the way the world is heading, people will get offended, this comment is out right rude, and gives you the impression that unless you have charts your not welcome at EGKK.

 

No,that is not the attitude the controller displays,it is the attitude you want to see as evidently you are

going from the point most people mean wrong when they make a snappy remark.

I am going from the point he is nót meaning wrong and thus my view is entirely different.

There is no requirement for any one on vatsim to have charts, its a suggestion only, ATC have to remember they are there to provide a service to pilots, not dictate how they operate on the network.

 

The controller implies one hás to have charts nowhere,again,you are reading that into his remark imho,

and he does provide another service,he reminds people there really isn't an excuse for flying without charts.

Cos there isn't.

 

As people have said a better way to approach this is, provide a link in your Controller info on where to get charts.

 

Yes,I agree,he could've put "no charts,no excuse -link to charts- they are free,but not mandatory" as a remark.

or just the link,or just the link and a friendly reminder.

That way absolutely no-one would think he was rude,and we would not have this discussion,so there you are right.

 

This sort of attitude of "Im the ATC you do as I say" i come across alot in Europe, and its disgusting, and off putting, and most likely why people are now voting with their feet when it comes to Networks, as can be seen in this thread http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50081 where Pilots and ATC are making the move to IVAO, and this attitude is hurting vatsim.

 

And there you are going wrong.

Where do you see thát attitude in this controller?

Have you flown with the controller in question,visited his airfield,seen it for yourself?

Or is all this based on "no charts,no excuse" ?

If so,I am gobsmacked.

If it is based on more then this remark,please elaborate.

 

I have flown multiple times at the airfield with controller(s) having the remark in question,and said remark

has never p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed me,nor did I perceive it in their actions.

In other words,they have not once forced me or any other to do right or leave,nor commented about it

or implied I or any other should do so in my presence.

Infact,I received sterling service from multiple controllers at the same airfield,as did others.

 

What I read here is that the controller in question should not be controlling at all.

Is that what you imply?

 

You cannot force pilots to:

Have charts

Have the Preferred route

Change their route because you said so

 

 

But you can teach pilots and hope they learn.

And it doesn't always have to be the silky approach,we Dutch have a proverb for that :

* Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden.

o Literal translation: "Gentle healers make stinking wounds."

o Meaning: "It is better to treat a problem thoroughly even if the treatment is painful, otherwise it may get worse."

 

added edit

And maybe the gentle healers of the past and present are what is haunting VATSIM now.

end of added edit.

 

And the worst quote that i hear on VATSIM from ATC's and I hear it all to often is

 

"Im the ATC if you dont like it go fly offline"

 

I have néver heard that remark the last year and I

have logged a fair bit of hours the past few months,and many of those hours are at areas

where controllers had,have or used to have said remark or similar in their atis.

 

I have however heard it when I started out and I do know why :

as I was clueless,and that way they gave me the message to straighten up and fly right,or not fly at all.

 

Tom.

[Kirk Christie]

Tom, you dont get it.

 

What you dont find rude and offensive others do, if some one makes a complaint then it has to be acted on, you cant just say, well your the only person on this whole net work that feels that way about it, so take your problems elsewhere.

 

I dont have charts for EGKK, prior to this thread I dindnt know where to get them, and im not going to sit there and explain myself to some stuck up controller with a snarly remark in his controller info as to why I dont have the charts, he can do his job as a ATC and provide me with a service, and if that means he has to vector me on to the ILS then thats what he should do.

 

And you know what my excuse would be "Show me where it is written down that VATSIM requires that fly online with charts"

 

And in till such requirement comes into practice as far as im concerned he can go take a flying leap.

 

Also the fact that RJ, the RTS and a SUP all want to re educate this guy, should be a indication to you that this practice is UN acceptable.

 

Pilots with charts make life easier, I agree, but im sure as hell not going to ask some one to explain to me why they dont have charts.

[Jonas Eberle]

Well, Kirk - you need to notice also that ATCs want to play their game, too.

 

And this is not black & white - ATCs are urged to help until a certain extent. And we do, you know that. We play more of the education game than of the Virtual Air Traffic Game sometimes.

 

But if a pilot refuses to get charts, we cannot do anything. Charts are the base for it. I put him in a holding or let him wait until he gets charts - I know it is necessary for our network not to become worse in pilot quality than what it is now.

 

And I won't "do the clown" with progressive taxi for every ignorant pilot. This does not mean, I never do it

 

Believe it or not, most pilots are not drawn away by that! I get a lot of positive feedback from newbies.

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

If people are offended by requirement to have charts, let them indeed move to IVAO.

[Kirk Christie]

If people are offended by requirement to have charts, let them indeed move to IVAO.

 

WHAT!!! are you serious, im sure RJ will have something to say to that.

 

What you guys are failing to understand is that regardless of your personal opinion, or what you think pilots should and shouldn't have on the network is purely your own opinion and YOU cant enforce your own opinions on any one else.

 

Yes i think pilots should have charts

Yes i think pilots should fly the published flight plans

Yes i think pilots should know their CTA from OCTA

Yes i think all pilots should know proper phraseology

However this does not mean i refuse service to any one that doesn't meet the requirements, it means i look for other alternate ways to process this pilot, so that he gets the enjoyment he wants out of the network, and i get to provide a ATC service.

 

Jonas, if you put me in a Hold and then told me to go find charts, I would be extremely irate, and I would be calling a supervisor.

 

In till VATSIM introduces a Policy or a Ruling that requires all pilots to have charts wherever they fly, you are going to loose the argument.

 

You need to understand that its your Job as ATC, if a Pilot asks for Progressive Taxi, its your Job to provide that to them, if a pilot says no charts require vectors, its your Job to do that.

 

ATC are there to provide a service to pilots

 

No wonder the UK is loosing pilots to IVAO the attitude of the ATC there stinks.

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

No, it's not my job. My job is in the RW. Guess what, here as ATC I am for enjoyment, just like your pilots that get offended by everything instead of trying to learn. These days there is in fact no excuse for having charts in 95% of places worldwide, this is a statement of fact, not attitude. If someone flies EGLL-EDDF with "no charts" rmk, it shows HIS attitude, and I don't feel I need to provide any service to him. "No wonder we lose pilots"? No wonder we also lose ATCos who get tired with all this stuff. Just drop the "learning environment" bit and at least we'll know what we're standing on.

[Jonas Eberle]

What you guys are failing to understand is that regardless of your personal opinion, or what you think pilots should and shouldn't have on the network is purely your own opinion and YOU cant enforce your own opinions on any one else.

It is up to you to improve pilot quality because you are the only one that can give feedback to the pilots. If you fail to do so, you miss an opportunity.

 

Jonas, if you put me in a Hold and then told me to go find charts, I would be extremely irate, and I would be calling a supervisor.

you would call a SUP because I let you enjoy the reading of charts? I keep traffic away from you so that you can fully concentrate and enjoy this moment! hehe

 

Kirk, don't get me wrong as that a pilot would not have fun with us! What I wrote earlier is that we need to see that we do not lose the fun although some pilots are trying to draw us to that

 

My sole personal oppinion is we do not need phlegmatic ATCs that do not react appropriately to pilots' failures.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Wohooo, the action is here....

 

Kirk, Jonas would not put a pilot into a hold deliberately. He would offer it to him, to give him the chance to download the charts and have a look. This will educate the pilot to reach the next level of knowledge and proficiency. If said pilot refused to do so (holding+charts), Jonas would not put him into a holding. He knows that he cannot do this.

 

Believe it or not, 95% of our pilots are considerate members of VATSIM who thanksfully accept the piece of information and advice and try to do what you suggest to them. And even if it just for the next online-flight. That is sufficient for me as a SUP/vATC/vPilot.

[Freek Vandeursen 1101105]

You need to understand that its your Job as ATC, if a Pilot asks for Progressive Taxi, its your Job to provide that to them, if a pilot says no charts require vectors, its your Job to do that.

 

ATC are there to provide a service to pilots

 

Why don't we install remote control too so ATC can actually fly the plane for the pilot?

 

It is a pilot's job to know where he is, where he needs to go, and how to get there. And if that turns out to be a problem, ATC might be able to help.

[Jason Baxter 920557]

What I don't understand is I can't amend someones route, but if I vector him along it all the way there will be no complaints.

[tom van der elst]

.. and here I sit,as a PILOT ... and I'm just glad not everybody is pampering us pilots.

Glad some folks have the guts to tell what I'm doing wrong.

I would've never been where I am today were it not for a controller that flat out told me

(and no,he wasn't nice about it,but he was RIGHT,and I was WRONG) I did the wrong thing.

Guess what he told me.

Yup,he said I should have charts,and if I refused to fly with charts and would just do what I wanted to do,

there was a place called the zone for that.

And he was right,as that place still is there,and there you can do whatever you want.

 

And you guys can tell me time and time again I'm wrong,I know I'm at the very least more right then you folks are.

Pampering your pilots is not going to work,we have tried that for what,9 years now?

And where are we today?

See how the stats from RJ look,and do note the ATCO's that haven't logged in for a while.

Then tell me we háve to force ATCO's to treat éverybody that goes in their airspace equally nice,no matter

whát they do wrong,no matter how ridiculous they behave.

Cos that is what you are saying.

 

Do remember I am a pilot,and also do remember I don't mind an ATCO telling me what I'm doing wrong,

and I do not mind an ATCO being cross with me if he has a good reason to be like that.

I can honestly not believe it,it seems a pilot is valued ten times more then an ATCO,while an ATCO

has to train and show that he wants to move on,learn,and be good at what he does.

 

Now,I want ATC,and I am not going to get a whole lot of it if I regard an ATCO as a maid,here to serve my every need.

All too often I find an ATCO has to let someone wipe their feet on their hobby,and then he has to thank them for it.

I'm glad some folks get it,and it is time that ends.

 

To the esteemed controllers : do not hesitate to tell ME what I'm doing wrong,as I want to learn

and I can't learn everything from a pdf or a forum.

I promise I'll be a good boy.

 

Tom.

[Ryan Geckler]

Tom, I fully agree. One of the reason I feel that we are losing controllers is that we are required to learn, study, and memorize our airspaces, spend hours and hours on getting better, only to have pilots that don't care or spend any effort to learn and get better. These pilots don't have charts, can only go GPS direct, etc...

 

And worse is, we have to accommodate these pilots, no questions asked. Why not hold pilots to similar (but not equal to RL pilots) standards? If you hold controllers to such a high standard and b**** at them every time they make a mistake, then that seems incredibly unfair to me and I understand the loss of controllers.

[tony moseley 1088954]

.. and here I sit,as a PILOT ... and I'm just glad not everybody is pampering us pilots.

 

i expect there are many controllers who get sick of pampering pilots who only use text.thats not as real as it gets, it downgrades the simulation no end in my opionion, why can't those pilots use voice? cos it can spoil it for others when controllers are typing away instead of controlling by voice, the service can get reduced because of it.

 

i expect tom you don't mind that leniancy and pampering because it suited you for 7 years to fly by text only.

 

i don't mind those who use text because there might be many reasons why they do, just the same as a pilot without charts could have reasons why they are not present.

 

no voice -no excuses....i don't think so do you?

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

pilot without charts could have reasons why they are not present.

 

Dog ate them.

[tony moseley 1088954]

i don't mind those who use text because there might be many reasons why they do,

 

dog ate microphone

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

Nice try.

 

I can name some legitimate reasons people don't use voice. Try naming one for not having charts for EGKK.

[tony moseley 1088954]

no printer to print charts

no 2nd monitor to display charts

unable to understand charts

unable to follow a chart and fly at the same time

not enough time to find charts and fly online

vatsim dosen't require charts to fly.

unsure which of the 30 charts i need for gatwick

english not being my first language and difficulty in understanding aviation terms

unable to find the charts needed

being new to flight simming

 

its not that hard to find reasons Krzysztof is it

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

And which of them are legitimate? Sorry, but "unable to find charts for EGKK" is a bit implausible.

[Richard Jenkins]

Nice try.

 

I can name some legitimate reasons people don't use voice. Try naming one for not having charts for EGKK.

 

Living in a country where the IP for that particular site is blocked by the government? Okay, I'll shut up now...

[tony moseley 1088954]

all of them are legitimate!

 

and being new and not being able to find the chart is most defintely one of them.

 

i found it odd that tom van der elst who took part in a downgraded simulation for 7 years and that in some ways could have spolied it for others and was glad of controllers making allowances for him is now taking such a hardline about controllers pampering pilots.

 

perhaps my opinion is based on being rather new myself and not an old school pilot who has been around for years and has forgotten how confusing and daunting charts can be to newbies.

[Krzysztof Szerszen 861225]

New to using google?

[Richard Jenkins]

New to using google?

 

 

Google is evil.

[Ryan Geckler]

was glad of controllers making allowances for him is now taking such a hardline about controllers pampering pilots.

 

And in that statement lies the problem. When controllers pamper the pilots, pilots then feel like they have to take no initiative and the controller will just vector them around. They'll file GPS direct because they know the controller will vector them around anyways.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

Demanding they have charts does not mean they can read them. Are you then going to teach charts while they hold?

 

The 'pilots are to blame for ATC leaving' really doesn't hold much water because nothing has changed in the pilot world for over ten years; they are at the same skill level they were then as now. What has changed is this ultra-realsm in ATC that has to go from VATSIM. If you need ultra-realism on the network you need to go find another network as this one is not going to accomodate that attitude any longer.

 

We DO NOT want ATC to have to train to unreal levels on VATSIM, we want them trained where they can be barely competent then put them out there and allow them to make mistakes, just like we expect pilots will make mistakes too. I have yet to see a single ATC leader fired from VATSIM because he undertrained his staff, but we're about to see some fired for overtraining their staff. and refusing to change.

 

RJ has been going on about this ultra realism and the ill effects it is having on the network for some time so I doubt this comes as a surprise. We will be looking for the leadership who can't make the transition to make education and learning a higher priority than realism and we will be asking them to step down from their position.

[Richard Jenkins]

Tom, I fully agree. One of the reason I feel that we are losing controllers is that we are required to learn, study, and memorize our airspaces, spend hours and hours on getting better, only to have pilots that don't care or spend any effort to learn and get better. These pilots don't have charts, can only go GPS direct, etc...

 

And worse is, we have to accommodate these pilots, no questions asked. Why not hold pilots to similar (but not equal to RL pilots) standards? If you hold controllers to such a high standard and b**** at them every time they make a mistake, then that seems incredibly unfair to me and I understand the loss of controllers.

 

Lets get a few things straight.

 

VATSIM has never imposed any testing standards on the controllers. Even with GRP all that was given was a list of competencies. All the written testing and OTS/CPT was created by the locals. It's all a creation of the divisions and ACC/ARTCC/FIR structure. So, if you have a beef with it, go thank your local staff but quit harping about what VATSIM has made you do.

 

Now I am off to go find a 14 year old controller in Anchorage who likes to yell at people on the radio..... There's some "realism" for you.