RUDE ATC'S

[Richard Gerrish]

[

 

He was making reference to Frank's "even in real life" portion of the comment.

 

thats what i get for posting before my first cup of caffine.

Edited July 19, 2010 at 06:48 PM by Guest

[Stephen Richey 985064]

The magic words are: common sense. Use common sense.

 

To quote my grandfather: "Common sense is the most uncommon of virtues".

[Frank Otero]

If your referring to Airliner pilots in there home country then they need to loose there job or the airline needs to train them better. Say if you had a American Airlines 752 flying into DFW, he should have the required training to fully interact with ATC and do everything that he is payed to do. Aka fly the plane.

 

If your talking about VFR pilots earning their PPL then yes, they can and sometimes do cause problems.

 

Hi Daniel,

 

I was referring mostly to low-time pilots (or low-time in equipment) and/or those who due to their equipment (or lack thereof) may not be able to keep up with the tempo ATC needs for that moment. But, even airline pilots have bad days and make mistakes that may prompt ATC to put them on "the back of the line".

[Mark McCoy 823112]

That's a good point.. mistakes and frustrations don't just occur on VATSIM. Spend about 20 minutes on LiveATC listening to the various positions in the New York airspace. It can get pretty interesting at times.

[Damien Chung 1327255]

Sorry to bring it up after 5 years, but I started on my first flight and my route was from an uncontrolled airspace to a controlled airspace. When I first contact the APP, I got a PM from the ATC for STAR approach information, but I couldn't find the plate for that particular STAR so I told him and I ask for another approach that I have information on and he insisted that I have to use the one he issued, so I nearly gave up and cancel my approach and divert to an uncontrolled airspace when he sent a PM to ask for Squak IDENT, so I did and then he told me that it is not me, and I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume either PM is not that private or he sent it wrongly and doesn't admit his mistake.

 

So after that drama he clear me for lower altitude so I will just play along and see how it goes. He gave me the Squak code and then gave me information when to turn and clear for ILS approach. I was waiting to get to that distance but I was still 10nm out of that given distance and he PM me and told me to do what he says and turn NOW, which gave me a lot of pressure because I still have a lot to prep before landing and there he is telling me I am disobeying his instruction. Just before I land I saw the conversation with another aircraft coming to land, and he told that pilot that he is the ATC and (the pilot) MUST obey or [Removed] (well he didn't say [Removed] but that's the tone I get from the CAPS and stuff), and then I realise I am not the only one getting pissed off by the ATC.

 

I recorded the whole thing and it will be pretty interesting to watch back I don't think I will want to fly when he is on the watch anymore, I think ATC needs to lower down their tone because they are there to help not to tell people off.

Edited June 18, 2015 at 07:16 AM by Guest

[Bradley Grafelman]

I think making posts like this on the public forums (i.e. rather than submitting structured feedback to the ARTCC/vACC/FIR staff) is being a part of the problem rather than anything resembling a solution to it.

 

I also think thinly veiled obscenities are routinely counted as a CoC A1 violation, if we want to nitpick on who isn't doing something correctly.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Damien if you have it recorded, please do submit it to [email protected], im sure he'll find it interesting should you want to make a formal complaint.

[Norman Blackburn]

Damien

 

I have removed the swearing from your post. It is not permitted here. Ever. Repeats will see your access to the forum removed.

 

In regard to your incident if you want to send me an email with your recording attached so that I can feed that back. The reported standard is well short of what we would like to see from our membership. vpcrm at vatsim. net

[Donald Tonks]

Yes I got read the riot act today by a ATC CTR dude, he tried to contact me as traffic was getting congested in the immediate airspace @FL360...apparently via voice...then...3 times in a text message...the two other craft I believe were manned but they couldn't be vectored away?...just me?

 

Anyway after enduring a mid-air lecture with all my fellow pilots listening in on why I almost caused a major air disaster and to never do this again!

 

I brought it to this gentlemans attenyion that I DID post a OOCP message before I left for my mission...

 

According to him...after he did find my post...no sorries either mind you...I was to announce to all of my intentions not post!

 

So if ya catch a OHGOTTAGOPP on air its me

[Bradley Grafelman]

Moral of that story is to click the Disconnect button before leaving the cockpit.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Not necessarily, Brad!

 

Moral of the story for Donald and any other member is: do not just announce that you are out of your virtual flight deck, but REQUEST it. This is the only way to close the loop and make sure that your counterpart is aware of your absence.

 

Anything else may cause what Donald has experienced: the ATCO may have missed the announcement of absence, subsequently cannot plan with it and gets a bit "excited" when the pilot in question is not responsive. Being unresponsive within active airspace (that includes leaving your station without active ATC approval) will cause Supervisor to disconnect the member in question and in repeated cases you will get a temporary suspension or even "tea and cookies" with the Divisional Conflict Resolution Manager.

 

So, please show some respect towards other members! There are only two scenarios:

 

1) you have time to request approval to leave your station for a short period of time: request it and make sure your ATCO is aware of it, close the loop!

2) there is an urgent matter and you do NOT have time to request approval to leave your station: if possible, announce it by voice or text and then DISCONNECT until you are able to join the session again.

 

As you can see, disconnecting from the network is normally not necessary, do it if you cannot wait for approval to leave your virtual flight deck. Most if not all ATCOs will approve temporary absences.

[Donald Tonks]

Not necessarily, Brad!

 

Moral of the story for Donald and any other member is: do not just announce that you are out of your virtual flight deck, but REQUEST it. This is the only way to close the loop and make sure that your counterpart is aware of your absence.

 

Anything else may cause what Donald has experienced: the ATCO may have missed the announcement of absence, subsequently cannot plan with it and gets a bit "excited" when the pilot in question is not responsive. Being unresponsive within active airspace (that includes leaving your station without active ATC approval) will cause Supervisor to disconnect the member in question and in repeated cases you will get a temporary suspension or even "tea and cookies" with the Divisional Conflict Resolution Manager.

 

So, please show some respect towards other members! There are only two scenarios:

 

1) you have time to request approval to leave your station for a short period of time: request it and make sure your ATCO is aware of it, close the loop!

2) there is an urgent matter and you do NOT have time to request approval to leave your station: if possible, announce it by voice or text and then DISCONNECT until you are able to join the session again.

 

As you can see, disconnecting from the network is normally not necessary, do it if you cannot wait for approval to leave your virtual flight deck. Most if not all ATCOs will approve temporary absences.

 

Thanks for the information regarding this situation. I'm basically new to VATSIM.

 

So far loving it! A few vPilot issues still but working on those.

 

I was under the impression that such requests were to be discrete for the benefit of others.

 

I read the rules but didn't catch any notes regarding posts and verbal OK were to be required.

 

Also didn't realize disconnecting was OK?

 

So now I know!

[Andreas Fuchs]

One more happy member! Welcome to the circus!

[Trent Hopkinson]

Thanks for the information regarding this situation. I'm basically new to VATSIM.

 

So far loving it! A few vPilot issues still but working on those.

 

I was under the impression that such requests were to be discrete for the benefit of others.

 

I read the rules but didn't catch any notes regarding posts and verbal OK were to be required.

 

Also didn't realize disconnecting was OK?

 

So now I know!

 

I usually try to make them sound realish - ie "ATC, this is [my callsign] requesting to go off frequency for [x] minutes"

 

Disconnecting is always ok, you can't collide with anyone when you're not even there

Disconnecting doesn't even need to be announced, although there may be a minute or two of confusion on the ATC end if you don't. It's nice to let them know you are logging off to avoid that confusion, but sometimes life isn't that patient.

 

Disconnecting is appropriate when:

1: You suddenly need to go somewhere in an emergency and may be away and unable to respond (ie: mum/spouse suddenly needs you to do stuff on threat of serious dodo)

2: The entire family fly in from interstate and sudden surprise visits you.

3: Power failure takes out your PC/house lights without warning.

4: PC Crashes to desktop/BSOD.

and all other kinds of issues. Obviously sometimes you get NO warning (yourself even) before some of these events.

 

"Disconnecting" is a fail-safe. If you aren't even logged into the network, people can't complain about what you do on it.

You can't have a TCAS RA with someone who isn't there afterall.

 

 

So, can you log back in after a disconnect? Yep. Just try to do it in cruise, not in a busy TMA or even worse, near a runway centreline on glideslope. Check vatspy/vattastic etc to see what ATC is on, and contact them asap with position/altitude. My suggestion is if you are descending already, it's too late to try. but if you're nice and established at FL3x0 a good 20 mins before top of decent it's pretty fair game.

[Donald Tonks]

Thanks for the information regarding this situation. I'm basically new to VATSIM.

 

So far loving it! A few vPilot issues still but working on those.

 

I was under the impression that such requests were to be discrete for the benefit of others.

 

I read the rules but didn't catch any notes regarding posts and verbal OK were to be required.

 

Also didn't realize disconnecting was OK?

 

So now I know!

 

I usually try to make them sound realish - ie "ATC, this is [my callsign] requesting to go off frequency for [x] minutes"

 

Disconnecting is always ok, you can't collide with anyone when you're not even there

Disconnecting doesn't even need to be announced, although there may be a minute or two of confusion on the ATC end if you don't. It's nice to let them know you are logging off to avoid that confusion, but sometimes life isn't that patient.

 

Disconnecting is appropriate when:

1: You suddenly need to go somewhere in an emergency and may be away and unable to respond (ie: mum/spouse suddenly needs you to do stuff on threat of serious dodo)

2: The entire family fly in from interstate and sudden surprise visits you.

3: Power failure takes out your PC/house lights without warning.

4: PC Crashes to desktop/BSOD.

and all other kinds of issues. Obviously sometimes you get NO warning (yourself even) before some of these events.

 

"Disconnecting" is a fail-safe. If you aren't even logged into the network, people can't complain about what you do on it.

You can't have a TCAS RA with someone who isn't there afterall.

 

 

So, can you log back in after a disconnect? Yep. Just try to do it in cruise, not in a busy TMA or even worse, near a runway centreline on glideslope. Check vatspy/vattastic etc to see what ATC is on, and contact them asap with position/altitude. My suggestion is if you are descending already, it's too late to try. but if you're nice and established at FL3x0 a good 20 mins before top of decent it's pretty fair game.

 

Very Good!

THX again!!

[Craig Watt 1432888]

Yep got it last night, Had vat sim for 2 weeks and was really enjoying it until a controller last night has demoralized me. Even after I had taxied to the gate made me out to be stupid and insulted my understanding of the English language and given where I am from he still persisted to give me abuse over private messages. On the outbound leg then he wouldn't clear my flight plan, just ignored me! I didn't know how to get a supervisor last night because I haven't learnt that yet. As I said to the supervisor via email I came on vat sim to make my experience more realistic now its put me off playing all together. I come on for fun and enjoyment not to him poke fun at me over the radio and then through private messages. I have absolutley no problem naming him as I have the screenshots to back it up.

[Kieran Samuel Cross]

Yep got it last night, Had vat sim for 2 weeks and was really enjoying it until a controller last night has demoralized me. Even after I had taxied to the gate made me out to be stupid and insulted my understanding of the English language and given where I am from he still persisted to give me abuse over private messages. On the outbound leg then he wouldn't clear my flight plan, just ignored me! I didn't know how to get a supervisor last night because I haven't learnt that yet. As I said to the supervisor via email I came on vat sim to make my experience more realistic now its put me off playing all together. I come on for fun and enjoyment not to him poke fun at me over the radio and then through private messages. I have absolutley no problem naming him as I have the screenshots to back it up.

 

Welcome to VATSIM, Craig.

 

Just as a pointer, this thread is three years old, and we don't generally like to bring them back to life. If you have a problem where you feel a supervisor's intervention may be required, use the .wallop command. You may find it useful to read the Pilot Resource Centre, or complete the P1 course either with the VATSIM Academy or another P1 rated ATO.

 

That being said, I'm sorry you've had this experience - if you've filed your complaint to [email protected], you should get a response regarding this matter.

[Craig Watt 1432888]

Yep got it last night, Had vat sim for 2 weeks and was really enjoying it until a controller last night has demoralized me. Even after I had taxied to the gate made me out to be stupid and insulted my understanding of the English language and given where I am from he still persisted to give me abuse over private messages. On the outbound leg then he wouldn't clear my flight plan, just ignored me! I didn't know how to get a supervisor last night because I haven't learnt that yet. As I said to the supervisor via email I came on vat sim to make my experience more realistic now its put me off playing all together. I come on for fun and enjoyment not to him poke fun at me over the radio and then through private messages. I have absolutley no problem naming him as I have the screenshots to back it up.

 

Welcome to VATSIM, Craig.

 

Just as a pointer, this thread is three years old, and we don't generally like to bring them back to life. If you have a problem where you feel a supervisor's intervention may be required, use the .wallop command. You may find it useful to read the Pilot Resource Centre, or complete the P1 course either with the VATSIM Academy or another P1 rated ATO.

 

That being said, I'm sorry you've had this experience - if you've filed your complaint to [email protected], you should get a response regarding this matter.

 

Hi Kieron,

 

Thanks for the welcome and thank you for your reply, Yes I wasn’t sure what way to go about the forums because I am only 2 weeks into VATSIM so didn’t feel it would have went down too well if I had have created a topic when I seen this 1, but I take your point.

 

When I signed up I read the code of conduct, it says you should be respectful to users, number 8 on the code of conduct, it seems pilots has to be respectful but certain controllers don’t. I just feel atleast give me an opportunity to learn, the controller in question has been part of this network for many years. Luther controller He had to start somewhere, I Am sure people can tell from my ID that I am very new the controller also would have known that. He has made me feel not good enough for VATSIM and I have already submitted a ticket to cancel my membership. I wanted to air my feelings as someone who is literally learning. It’s properly hit my confidence. If no one gives you even a chance how can you learn?

[Andreas Fuchs]

Hi Craig,

 

I am sorry that you have made this poor experience here at VATSIM. But then, why would you "cancel your membership" and make this single person win? There are thousands of other great members here at VATSIM, who are fine people and have joined today or nearly 20 years ago for the very same reason: realism, learning and fun!

 

So, all is not lost. Just take the case up to the Vice President of Supervisors (see the e-mail address that Kieran has provided) and put it behind you. Don't allow one single lovely fellow make you feel unwelcome and if I may shoot a little bit at you (just for fun): it is highly unfair to throw all apples to waste, just because one was foul and will most probably be sorted once you report the case with sufficient evidence.

[Craig Watt 1432888]

Hi Craig,

 

I am sorry that you have made this poor experience here at VATSIM. But then, why would you "cancel your membership" and make this single person win? There are thousands of other great members here at VATSIM, who are fine people and have joined today or nearly 20 years ago for the very same reason: realism, learning and fun!

 

So, all is not lost. Just take the case up to the Vice President of Supervisors (see the e-mail address that Kieran has provided) and put it behind you. Don't allow one single lovely fellow make you feel unwelcome and if I may shoot a little bit at you (just for fun): it is highly unfair to throw all apples to waste, just because one was foul and will most probably be sorted once you report the case with sufficient evidence.

 

 

Hello Andreas,

 

Thank you for your support, I really do appreciate it. VATSIM are sending it to the European head who will look at the case. I have screenshots on my computer which for the love of it will not attach to the email. Maybe something to do with supported file.

 

They are being very supportive of me, I have took this quite bad but the controller made a reference to my nationality which I didn’t appreciate and actually have taken great offence too. As I said before I am on 10-15 hours in, all the boards I read before I made the switch to VATSIM said the are very friendly and so far the U.K. controllers have been understanding of that and have actually tried to encourage me which I know they don’t have too but it’s appreciated, I made a mistake at Stansted during the taxi and I apologised to atc and the controller messaged me saying, “don’t worry, we all make mistakes il help you.” Spanish are also the same. They were aware I was new. This guy called me out in front of everyone and went in on me and even after a 5-7 minute taxi once I had parked he ripped into me again on private message. Again I will reveal his name if I am allowed, all I will say is I looked at his profile and he’s a very expieranced controller. With not just hours, years expierance, his help would have been vital for me because I know it would have gave me a slight bit more confidence going on in my VATSIM life. 1 thing I ty to do is be respectful of others around me, I am far from perfect but I try my hardest.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Craig,

 

it does not matter how experienced someone is. Then again, as you have reported the case, somebody will be looking into it. It will be looked at from both sides and maybe it was just a stupid misunderstanding, I won't judge it, because I was not there.

 

Whatever you do, PLEASE:

- do not publish the controllers name or anything that could make anyone else make track the person in question

- do not publish those screenshots, except making it available to VATSIM staff upon request

- put the incident behind you, just continue.

 

As you witnessed already, everyone else is super friendly and supportive. Maybe the ATCO in question had a bad day, we all don't know. The case is now taken care of, look forward, not backwards.

[Craig Watt 1432888]

Craig,

 

it does not matter how experienced someone is. Then again, as you have reported the case, somebody will be looking into it. It will be looked at from both sides and maybe it was just a stupid misunderstanding, I won't judge it, because I was not there.

 

Whatever you do, PLEASE:

- do not publish the controllers name or anything that could make anyone else make track the person in question

- do not publish those screenshots, except making it available to VATSIM staff upon request

- put the incident behind you, just continue.

 

As you witnessed already, everyone else is super friendly and supportive. Maybe the ATCO in question had a bad day, we all don't know. The case is now taken care of, look forward, not backwards.

 

Your right Andreas. I agree with you. No point in crying over spilled milk as the saying goes. I won’t let it put my off going forward. I won’t publish names or screenshots unless as you say it’s with the VATSIM member of staff. I will take your point on board, thank you for taking your time to reply to me, Andreas.

 

Craig

[Robert Shearman Jr]

it seems pilots has to be respectful but certain controllers don’t.

I wouldn't characterize it that way. Sometimes certain pilots fail to follow the rules, and sometimes certain controllers fail to follow the rules. Anyone who berates another user should be held accountable.

 

I will reveal his name if I am allowed,

Privately to the Network Supervisor and ARTCC/vACC Management teams, yes. Publicly in this Forum or on any other VATSIM-related public group, no. Good on you for saving the screenshots -- use them the right way and let the people who are tasked with addressing this handle the rest.

 

As frustrated and personally hurt as I'm sure you are because of this, you have said yourself that many other controllers have been more than happy to work with you & help point you in the right direction. Keep at it & do your best to learn from the mistakes you make. That effort will be recognized and appreciated. The satisfaction of learning how to navigate the ins and outs of flying on the network is WELL worth the initial frustration.

[Craig Watt 1432888]

it seems pilots has to be respectful but certain controllers don’t.

I wouldn't characterize it that way. Sometimes certain pilots fail to follow the rules, and sometimes certain controllers fail to follow the rules. Anyone who berates another user should be held accountable.

 

I will reveal his name if I am allowed,

Privately to the Network Supervisor and ARTCC/vACC Management teams, yes. Publicly in this Forum or on any other VATSIM-related public group, no. Good on you for saving the screenshots -- use them the right way and let the people who are tasked with addressing this handle the rest.

 

As frustrated and personally hurt as I'm sure you are because of this, you have said yourself that many other controllers have been more than happy to work with you & help point you in the right direction. Keep at it & do your best to learn from the mistakes you make. That effort will be recognized and appreciated. The satisfaction of learning how to navigate the ins and outs of flying on the network is WELL worth the initial frustration.

 

I have it sorted now, To be honest I didn't really know how to go around reporting as I wanted to make sure it went to the right person. Yes I am going to keep at it, Everyone is right why should 1 bad experience put me off doing something I really enjoy. Vatsim have an incredible product and a product which has took realism to the next level for me. Yes I still have a lot to learn, Can people help me from this point of view though, Should I be letting controllers know that I am new to the platform until I feel more confident?

[Kieran Samuel Cross]

it seems pilots has to be respectful but certain controllers don’t.

I wouldn't characterize it that way. Sometimes certain pilots fail to follow the rules, and sometimes certain controllers fail to follow the rules. Anyone who berates another user should be held accountable.

 

I will reveal his name if I am allowed,

Privately to the Network Supervisor and ARTCC/vACC Management teams, yes. Publicly in this Forum or on any other VATSIM-related public group, no. Good on you for saving the screenshots -- use them the right way and let the people who are tasked with addressing this handle the rest.

 

As frustrated and personally hurt as I'm sure you are because of this, you have said yourself that many other controllers have been more than happy to work with you & help point you in the right direction. Keep at it & do your best to learn from the mistakes you make. That effort will be recognized and appreciated. The satisfaction of learning how to navigate the ins and outs of flying on the network is WELL worth the initial frustration.

 

I have it sorted now, To be honest I didn't really know how to go around reporting as I wanted to make sure it went to the right person. Yes I am going to keep at it, Everyone is right why should 1 bad experience put me off doing something I really enjoy. Vatsim have an incredible product and a product which has took realism to the next level for me. Yes I still have a lot to learn, Can people help me from this point of view though, Should I be letting controllers know that I am new to the platform until I feel more confident?

 

Certainly let controllers know! Feel free to put it into your remarks section of your flight plan - just beware that in super busy airspace, the controller might not read it and you might feel you want to PM them.