Don't Man LA Center, Unless...

[Aaron Doyer 834365]

 

Say you have a s[Mod - lovely stuff]e on your leg from falling onto a rock or something. Do you fix the wound, or tear off the leg and hope to get a new one? That is what you're asking here.

 

BL.

 

More like instead of fixing the wound, you just tear off the leg to prevent it from happening again...

[Lance Williams]

Wouldn't this be the same complaint if this were happening at any other sector? This is absolutely [Mod - Happy Thoughts]anine. This is like complaining You've controlled before, and know how this is Lance. Think about it from that standpoint. Thank you for the kudos to ZLA, but honestly, you're going about it the wrong way.

 

BL.

 

Brad, this was a light-hearted post, no need to get all worked up over it.

 

Just my thoughts and I honestly don't think they are [Mod - Happy Thoughts]anine ideas either, although you are entitled to your opinion as I am.

 

Take it as that, nothing more, nothing less gr[Mod - Happy Thoughts]hopper!

[Lance Williams]

Oh. Well that's just absurd, and would increase workload even more, as you then have to contact and radar id the a/c departing from those airports anyway, i.e. if no approach control is online

 

Why is everything "absurd" to you?

 

Anyway, it works in Europe, why not here?

 

I'm certainly not really saying VATUSA should do this, but why wouldn't it work if they did? How would it be more of a workload? I don't see how that is. I bet Eurocontrol doesn't think it's more of a workload.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

Some of you are complaining about having to wait 15 or 20 minutes on a clearance?

 

hahahahahaha....I hope you never have the joy of flying out of real world EWR. I once spent 4 hours sitting on the same taxiway waiting to get out. I mean, hey, you want VATSIM to be "as real as it gets" right? Sometimes controllers are overworked, and you have to wait a few minutes. Go get a drink and some pretzels, prop your feet up on the footrests, and wait your turn. It'll be okay, I promise.

Edited December 5, 2005 at 08:15 PM by Guest

[Lance Williams]

Some of you are complaining about having to wait 15 or 20 minutes on a clearance?

 

hahahahahaha....I hope you never have the joy of flying out of real world EWR. I once spent 4 hours sitting on the same taxiway waiting to get out. I mean, hey, you want VATSIM to be "as real as it gets" right? Sometimes controllers are overworked, and you have to wait...thats just the way it is.

 

If VATSIM is to be that "as real as it gets" I then want the salary of those pilots sitting up front on that taxiway for 4 hours as well!

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Some of you are complaining about having to wait 15 or 20 minutes on a clearance?

 

hahahahahaha....I hope you never have the joy of flying out of real world EWR. I once spent 4 hours sitting on the same taxiway waiting to get out. I mean, hey, you want VATSIM to be "as real as it gets" right? Sometimes controllers are overworked, and you have to wait...thats just the way it is.

 

If VATSIM is to be that "as real as it gets" I then want the salary of those pilots sitting up front on that taxiway for 4 hours as well!

 

You should be posting that on your own airlines forum, not requesting it from the FAA

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

 

If VATSIM is to be that "as real as it gets" I then want the salary of those pilots sitting up front on that taxiway for 4 hours as well!

 

Nah, I really don't think you the salary of a lowly RJ pilot.

[Ross Carlson]

 

If VATSIM is to be that "as real as it gets" I then want the salary of those pilots sitting up front on that taxiway for 4 hours as well!

 

Nah, I really don't think you the salary of a lowly RJ pilot.

 

I imagine it's more than Lance is making now while waiting for a clearance on VATSIM.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

 

I imagine it's more than Lance is making now while waiting for a clearance on VATSIM.

 

Yeah, it might pay the internet bill I guess. But only if its dial up.

[Lance Williams]

 

If VATSIM is to be that "as real as it gets" I then want the salary of those pilots sitting up front on that taxiway for 4 hours as well!

 

Nah, I really don't think you the salary of a lowly RJ pilot.

 

I imagine it's more than Lance is making now while waiting for a clearance on VATSIM.

 

I'd take 1/2!

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

Why is everything "absurd" to you?

 

Well, not everything is "absurd" to me Lance, just this idea. I think deep down, you know it is too. And furthermore, there's not a single person here who agrees with you. Let's think about it for a moment. You have all kind of aircraft at the various Socal airports and Las Vegas, but the Center controller online CAN'T WORK ANY OF THAT TRAFFIC until they reach what...FL230 or something??? I'm sure the pilots would love that! Just think about that for a minute and then tell me it still sounds like a good idea.

 

Secondly, like I said, the controller workload will undoubtedly double or triple. Not only will you be working basically the same amount of traffic once they get up to altitude, you'll have to RADAR ID every single one, make sure they have a decent route etc., and sort out the mess of aircraft you wouldn't have if you had been controlling them from the beginning.

[Lance Williams]

You have all kind of aircraft at the various Socal airports and Las Vegas, but the Center controller online CAN'T WORK ANY OF THAT TRAFFIC until they reach what...FL230 or something??? I'm sure the pilots would love that! Just think about that for a minute and then tell me it still sounds like a good idea.

 

If you read my original post, you would have seen that I first said, they should control one of the tracon's then before taking center with all those aircraft.

 

That's not absurd to me at all.

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Your original post seemed to evolve with further posts, like this one...

 

Why is everything "absurd" to you?

 

Anyway, it works in Europe, why not here?

 

I'm certainly not really saying VATUSA should do this, but why wouldn't it work if they did? How would it be more of a workload? I don't see how that is. I bet Eurocontrol doesn't think it's more of a workload.

 

That is what Bryan was answering to...so if we are only responding to your original post, I'm a bit confused on what your third, fourth, fifth, etc., posts mean?

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

If you read my original post, you would have seen that I first said, they should control one of the tracon's then before taking center with all those aircraft.

That's not absurd to me at all.

 

Oh, I certainly read your original post, and I saw your idea of opening one of the TRACONs too! So a Center-rated controller should never open Center (pilots would love that), unless s/he can coordinate with a minimum of 2 other controllers (one for Socal and one for Vegas)??? Is that really what you're suggesting? And then not only "should" they not do it, they "shouldn't be allowed to," as in some sort of ZLA rule should be p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed to prohibit a controller from manning Center unless Socal and Vegas are already staffed?? Yep, absurd.

[Lance Williams]

Your original post seemed to evolve with further posts, like this one...

 

Why is everything "absurd" to you?

 

Anyway, it works in Europe, why not here?

 

I'm certainly not really saying VATUSA should do this, but why wouldn't it work if they did? How would it be more of a workload? I don't see how that is. I bet Eurocontrol doesn't think it's more of a workload.

 

That is what Bryan was answering to...so if we are only responding to your original post, I'm a bit confused on what your third, fourth, fifth, etc., posts mean?

 

Further posts, just added on to what others mentioned. If it works in Europe, I can't see why it wouldn't work here, but that wasn't my original point and as I already said I'm not advocating it.

[Lance Williams]

If you read my original post, you would have seen that I first said, they should control one of the tracon's then before taking center with all those aircraft.

That's not absurd to me at all.

 

Oh, I certainly read your original post, and I saw your idea of opening one of the TRACONs too! So a Center-rated controller should never open Center (pilots would love that), unless s/he can coordinate with a minimum of 2 other controllers (one for Socal and one for Vegas)??? Is that really what you're suggesting? And then not only "should" they not do it, they "shouldn't be allowed to," as in some sort of ZLA rule should be p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed to prohibit a controller from manning Center unless Socal and Vegas are already staffed?? Yep, absurd.

 

Maybe absurd to you, but I'd rather have that center guy controlling a Tracon instead of controlling too much traffic, causing people to step on each other because there's simply too much radio traffic and not enough controllers to handle it.

 

Call it absurd if you want, but I think differently.

[Keith Smith]

The idea of a ctr controller not being allowed to plug in unless he has support from below would 'fix' the problem, in the sense that there'd be less pilots on frequency (in theory). I believe it does more harm than good, though, since the majority of the time, pilots are NOT waiting for excessive amounts of times for clearances, even with a single center controller online.

 

The most common controller configurations that I've noticed are either LAX_CTR alone, or LAX_CTR and LAX_TWR. Under this proposal, what we'd basically see on any given day, then, would be: LAX_APP, or LAX_APP and LAX_TWR. No service at Vegas, and no service for 1/2 - 2/3 of the ZLA skies, and NO service above 13,000. As a pilot, I would stop flying there.

 

Lance, I understand there's pain involved in waiting for clearances, but I don't think that's the solution. I feel the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

 

Here _IS_ a solution, though. _PILOTS_... minimize your transmission times on the radio. It's _crucial_ when there's TWENTY other ppl on the frequency. I can't tell you how many times I hear this, "Ummmm Los Angeles Center, hi...um...this is November One Two Three Foxtrot X-ray, we're umm... at flight level twenty three hundred....um....two.....twenty three thousand, umm... 158 miles from [fix I've never heard of that isn't anywhere near my airspace], INBOUND to K-L-A-X.....WITH YOU!"

 

"Boeing Three Foxtrot X-ray, squawk 7201 and ident"

 

"This is November One Two Three Foxtrot X-ray....squawking 7 2...umm...say again?"

 

And so it continues. No, this is not an exaggeration.

 

I've said this a bazillion times, but the # of planes I can control at a time is largely (though, not entirely) dependent on the RESPONSE times of the pilots.

[Lance Williams]

I hear ya Keith, really I do.

 

I'm certainly not advocating rule changes or anything like that. I'm more suggesting, "common sense" rules. What I experienced last weekend is where the "common sense" rule should kick in. Common sense meaning..."Hey, I'm on center all alone with 5 aircraft calling for clearance out of Vegas, 4 aircraft calling for clearance at San Diego, eight aircraft calling for clearance at LA, 2 newbie's jacking everything up, 10 aircraft on their descent to various airports, geezz...maybe I shouldn't be on center all by myself here..."

 

Again, if I said there should be a rule (as in a formal policy), that's not what I meant. Just a common sense rule.

[Tom Meyer 944876]

Lance, so you'd rather have no ATC, then have to wait for the ATC?

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

Maybe absurd to you, but I'd rather have that center guy controlling a Tracon instead of controlling too much traffic, causing people to step on each other because there's simply too much radio traffic and not enough controllers to handle it.

Call it absurd if you want, but I think differently.

 

So now the problem is not clearance wait time, but pilots stepping on each other on voice comms.?? Now I'm a little confused.

 

If that's the problem, pilots need to learn radio etiquette. Have a listen to any real ATC freq. and see how well things run when pilots understand things like radio etiquette and protocol.

 

You can have people stepping on each other and causing havoc if there are 5 people on frequency, just like you can if there's 50. It's just a matter of pilots understanding how to use their radio, not a matter of shutting down LA Center.

[Lance Williams]

So now the problem is not clearance wait time, but pilots stepping on each other on voice comms.?? Now I'm a little confused.

 

All of the above. Sorry I don't keep requoting myself for you there Bryan.

 

I'll leave this post with what I've already said. One man's opinion, nothing more.

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Again, if I said there should be a rule (as in a formal policy), that's not what I meant. Just a common sense rule.

 

Yep, you did...

 

I vote that nobody be allowed to control LA Center unless they have LAS_APP, LA_APP and SAN_APP supporting them!

 

Although I do understand how that can be misinterperated. I guess that applies to all busy locations though, it's of course best to have more controllers taking some of the workload off the other...

[Ross Carlson]

I think it's worth mentioning that if I were looking for a place to fly, and I saw that Socal was staffed, but not Center, and I wanted to fly from LAX to LAS, then I wouldn't do that flight. I'd look for another flight to do where I would likely have ATC all the way. Obviously, that flight would not be found in ZLA unless I wanted to do a very short hop within Socal.

 

In other words, Lance, I think your idea would indeed help minimize the delay problems that sometimes occur, but I think the downsides would far outweigh any benefit. I might think differently if ZLA CTR was always overworked and pilots were consistently getting untolerable (greater than 15 minutes) delays, but I don't see that as being the case.

 

(Keith has already said all of the above, but I thought it would be good to hear it from a non-ZLA member.)

[Keith Smith]

Lance,

 

If we're talking about common sense rather than a hard and fast rule, then I don't disagree with you. There have been occasions where controllers at ZLA have said something to the effect of "too many pilots, not enough controllers, I'm just slowing you guys down, good night." So, it does happen. I've also seen cases where LAX_CTR and LAX_APP are online....CTR leaves and APP does NOT move up to CTR (even though he's rated to do so), because he determines that it'll be more chaos than it's worth.

 

What would help (other than pilots using the radio effectively) is having more controllers online, as has been suggested here. We're trying to train more approach controllers, but it's a very long process.

 

The _good_ news is that we have a healthy pipeline of students, which eventually translates into more center controllers in the long term.

[Dan McMahan 834034]

Let me preface this by saying LA Center did an amazing job tonight, handling three major airports all by himself.

 

With that said, I'd like to start my rant.

 

I vote that nobody be allowed to control LA Center unless they have LAS_APP, LA_APP and SAN_APP supporting them!

 

Yep, nobody can control LA Center until they have those three positions filled.

 

Why do you ask I request this? Well, one person alone can not handle that much traffic. It's simply impossible! A couple of us had to disconnect from VATSIM today, just to get going out of San Diego because he was too busy to give us clearance.

 

That's simply not fun. I would have preferred LA Center wasn't online and that's not why I joined VATSIM.

 

OK, that's just my crazy thought here. Nobody log into LA Center until you have at least LAS_APP, LA_APP and SAN_APP online, then we'll be good, ok?

 

 

 

The problem is that some controllers cannot handle the pressure of alot of aircraft so they should not be on center towers. And maybe should think about moving to a lower atc position. We as pilots know who can and cannot handle it. And I think it should be handled by the Center Admin to filter out the bad apples that cannot handle all the traffic and maybe demote those that cannot to lower ATC positions...... Theres my 2 cents worth!

 

Lance, quit complaining and enjoy the live enteraction because you ain't gonna find it anywhere else, on this level. And one more thing Lance. Are all your post negative? I come to the conclusion that you are a trouble maker and maybe need to be banned. And nobody gets paid here.... Its Virtual... Get it yet!

 

Also when I was CEO at fstower.com (1998-2003) I controlled 50+ aircraft at one time with no problem... But some people do not have the skills to controll on that level and should not try too. As I stated earlier in this post... If you can't handle the level of ATC you are at. Move down one position

 

And somebody fix the new pilot problem by teaching them and not complaining about it. Setup a new pilot program before they can fly on live server. And if VATSIM is interrested I will set up a Server for that very thing...New pilots/ATC only training server. And one more I promise. After new pilots/atc's have completed there training issue them a Vatsim pilot/atc certificatte so they can hang it over their virtual cockpit/tower.

 

Keith and Aaron, Brian, and Jeff keep up the good work!

 

Edited December 7, 2005 at 05:53 AM by Guest