Scott Lansing 953481 Posted January 2, 2006 at 07:48 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 07:48 PM Marc, I apologize I missed that thread. Well, I admit that 500 hours instructing is impressive. I guess I don't know the rules governing Instructor ratings. I've checked the VATUSA site but haven't found anything about currency. It may sound like I'm back peddling here but I guess I have to question how someone with 500 hours as an Instructor is no longer rated Instructor? Does one have to maintain so many hours per month, per year, etc., to remain Instructor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey Lopez 883899 Posted January 2, 2006 at 07:53 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 07:53 PM What I am mad about is that people are trying to save you by putting others out in the line of fire and making excuses for you I think you quite miss-understood the point of the first post. He was showing the fact that many in staff positions did not have the hours required. Not to flame them but making the point that the rule is not a reason to remove someone's rating. Removing Mr. Sykes's rating should not have happened. It just showed that Vatusa's director was acting out of anger not judgment. - Isaac Yes, you probably are right, it was cheap, but it is a rule. A rule is a rule is a rule is a rule, and when you break it, [Mod - lovely stuff] happens. how was it cheap the post was making a point that MS is not the only one that didnt meet the 10 hours thing and should NOT be demoted this is not private information it is available at the vatsim stats webpage...anyone could see it nwo he couldve made us work and told us go look it up but instead he put the info down on the post there is nothing "cheap" about it The thoughts and/or words or any general things that are expressed above are not a direct reflection of the views of the actual poster myself, Rey Lopez, and should be disregarded and left unread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Green 810012 Posted January 2, 2006 at 07:57 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 07:57 PM I once again agree. Jeff Turner shouldn't be a dictator. He's a leader...a director. If he's too stuck-up to listen to anyones advice, he should therefore be replaced. - Isaac Isaac, while you have a right to an opinion. Don't you think you should be around for a little while before you comment on how stuck-up a person is? You really haven't been here long enough to know him well enough to make that [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption. If you don't think he does a good job, apply for his job when it becomes open again. Richard Green VATSIM Supervisor SB Testing & Support Team VRC Testing & Support Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Green 810012 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:02 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:02 PM No one will ever make the comment that MS doesn't care about ZLA, some will disagree on his public relations skills, but that is a matter of opinion. Marc is no longer the Chief of ZLA, but he is moving on to bigger and better things... welding virtual tin in VATCAN, and NOT welding real tin as well in the frozen north. I for one wish him all the best.... Richard Green VATSIM Supervisor SB Testing & Support Team VRC Testing & Support Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Sykes 852946 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:10 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:10 PM Does one have to maintain so many hours per month, per year, etc., to remain Instructor? I have yet to see a written policy on this. Here's what I found on vatusa.org as regards instructors: Training Officer / Instructor [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignments * ARTCC ATMs will be responsible for recommending a ATM Instructor candidate to the Training Department for review. Once the candidate has been approved by the Training Department, said candidate will then be listed as the ATM Instructor of his/her ARTCC. The ARTCC ATM, in conjunction with the ATM Instructor can then name instructors to the ARTCC Staff as described in the VATUSA Training Department's guidelines. * The ARTCC ATM will have the authority to remove an Instructor from an ARTCC Staff and may release the ATM Instructor from his/her duties at his/her discretion. Such changes shall not be considered in effect until formal notification has been sent from the ARTCC ATM to the VATUSA Training Department and a receipt of notification has, in turn, been received. * All candidates for the ARTCC Staff Instructor position must already have an Instructor rating or higher. * Candidates for the Instructor or Senior Instructor ratings shall not be promoted to said ratings without the written endorsement from the VATUSA Training Director (or his/her designee). * The VATUSA Training Director shall maintain the power to revoke a controller's Instructor Rating at his/her discretion. But I'm sure there must be a policy somewhere that I've just missed because Jeff Turner wrote this: however, your instructor rating has been removed as well since you also fall below the minimum 10 hours required for this position. And we know he wouldn't make up a nonexistent, BS policy just to try to cause harm to someone he personally didn't like. That would be gross misconduct! So clearly there's a policy, and I just can't find it. I'm sure that VATUSA staff will be along shortly with a link, as well as some evidence that all VATUSA instructors got an email reminding them about the policy change when it went into effect (since nobody I know regularly reads the Policies section of the VATUSA site just on the off chance that something's changed). Marc Sykes Toronto ACC Trainee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Grchan 925585 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:13 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:13 PM Correct, because I was told to stop posting or I would be replaced. I made several posts about policies under consideration and continually received harsh, har[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing emails back from Jeff Turner. That discussion list should have been called "St. Fum" since inevitably after making a post I'd get a private email starting with "Shut the f*** up Marc ..." (or words to that effect). Why should I continue to be a member of a mailing list if I can't say anything and am not allowed to contribute. I once again agree. Jeff Turner shouldn't be a dictator. He's a leader...a director. If he's too stuck-up to listen to anyones advice, he should therefore be replaced. - Isaac I tried to stay out of this as long as I could..... Isaac, You really should stop posting on things that you have little to no knowledge of. Who are YOU to say he should be replaced? Jeff Turner is a GREAT person that is doing wonders for VATUSA. Im honestly not seeing where you see he should be replaced because of one action he made that MAY have been a bad choice. Are telling me that you have never made a bad choice? If so... Did you get fired or lose your rating? If you did thats unfortunate Its plain to see that you obviously have no idea of what you are talking about, And that you just started posting to become recognized. What a pity.... [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Elchitz 810151 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:17 PM Author Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:17 PM Marc, The "policy" is actually part of an SOP located on the Vatusa Training Site --> http://vatusa.org/training/sop.html#_C1 Section 1-4 Instructors should: Establish a training syllabus for each student in the ARTCC in concert with the Air Traffic Manager Instructor Conduct OJT Maintain currency as an Instructor. Provide feedback to the individual after each performance. [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist the Air Traffic Manager in grading Senior Student written tests. Maintain a minimum average of 10 hours per month online as an instructor. I didn't know that it existed either. One thing I can tell you is that a lot of stuff in there isn't enforced at all, but Jeff has already said (9 pages back) that the demotion was an error and apologized for it. Hopefully they will fix the policy or choose not to enforce it - there is some other interesting stuff within the SOP that also isn't enforced - but those can wait for another day. Ian Elchitz Just a guy without any fancy titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Sculley-Beaman Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:32 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:32 PM WOW......they moded me for saying '[Mod - lovely stuff]' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Horan 901577 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:32 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:32 PM WOW......they moded me for saying '[Mod - lovely stuff]' Its automatic.. Matt www.vatsim.net/prc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Bartolotta 912967 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:34 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:34 PM While that is an operating procedure, I'm curious why it doesn't list anywhere what sort of consequences will be taken if those rules are not upheld? See Chapter Four aswell: Chapter 4: BECOMING A VATUSA INSTRUCTOR Guidelines and procedures for obtaining a Instructor rating are as follows: 1) Currently hold a Senior Controller rating. 2) No disciplinary actions of record. 3) Complete and submit the application located at the VATUSA Training Department Website. 4) Once the application is received and approved, the VATUSA Training Department will then request a letter of recommendation from the Air Traffic Manager and/or Air Traffic Manager Instructor. NOTE: Should the application be denied, the Training Department will notify the individual of its decision. Should you feel that denial was unjust, you will have 7 days to contact the VATUSA Conflict Resolution Manager. After review of the case by the Conflict Resolution Manager a decision will be made. If it was unjust, you may re-apply, and we will review your application again. If your denial was just, the decision is final. You may re-apply after 4 months. 5) Upon receipt of letter of recommendation, the VATUSA Training Department will submit the applicant for the online Instructor exam. You must p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] this test with at least 80% proficiency prior to continuing the application process. If you do not p[Mod - Happy Thoughts], you must wait 30 days before you are permitted to take the test again. 6) Upon p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing the exam, the VATUSA Training Department will then notify the individual that he/she has been accepted to the VATUSA Training Department and his/her rating has been changed to Instructor. 7) You will then undergo some minor training, and be informed on the Instructor procedures/requirements. This training will be conducted by the VATUSA Training Staff (VATUSA3), or whom they designate. Instructor ratings are only for those individuals who are VATUSA Staff, or Instructors who are actively teaching and instructing at a specified ARTCC. Upon resignation or removal as VATUSA Staff or Instructor, the individuals rating will then revert back to Senior Controller. In addition, it should be noted that your Instructor rating is only for that ARTCC. Should you transfer out of an ARTCC, your Instructor rating will be lowered to Senior Controller, unless your new ATM and/or TA submits a letter to the VATUSA Training Department stating that they approve of having you on board as an Instructor. Only in special circomestances approved by the Training Director (VATUSA3) can inactive Instructors retain their Instructor rating. Furthermore, see the requirements table in section 2-5.1: Instructor and Senior Instructor - Demonstrates knowledge and skills needed to conduct cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es, provide practical instruction, and has demonstrated the human skills and patience required for such a position. Maintains this cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ification by serving in an active role as an instructor. It states on that page the things an "Instructors should" do...those are not listed as requirements. Call it a technicality, but if thats the basis someone is demoted on, then these come into play. Nick Bartolotta - ZSE Instructor, pilot at large "Just fly it on down to within a inch of the runway and let it drop in from there." - Capt. Don Lanham, ATA Airlines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaac Niedrauer 947516 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:54 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:54 PM Isaac, You really should stop posting on things that you have little to no knowledge of. Who are YOU to say he should be replaced? Jeff Turner is a GREAT person that is doing wonders for VATUSA. Im honestly not seeing where you see he should be replaced because of one action he made that MAY have been a bad choice. Are telling me that you have never made a bad choice? If so... Did you get fired or lose your rating? If you did thats unfortunate Its plain to see that you obviously have no idea of what you are talking about, And that you just started posting to become recognized. What a pity.... Now in simpler words.... STOP POSTING ON THIS THREAD BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT IT IS YOU ARE SAYING Sure, I may have made mistakes. But that is beside the point. I am not criticizing Jeff Turner personally. So it is also beside the point that he is a "Great Person". What I'm saying is that he made a mighty mistake. There is no problem with that unless he is willing to admit he made that mistake or at least admit that it was out of anger not judgement. I don't have to be around here for a long time to see there is a problem here. - Isaac Clear Skies, Isaac Niedrauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Goldstein 857161 Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:55 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 08:55 PM One thing I can tell you is that a lot of stuff in there isn't enforced at all, but Jeff has already said (9 pages back) that the demotion was an error and apologized for it. Hopefully they will fix the policy or choose not to enforce it - there is some other interesting stuff within the SOP that also isn't enforced - but those can wait for another day. READ ABOVE QUOTE...In my eyes no need to go on about it. I am sure he will be given his INS rating back. Alex Goldstein VFR Trips - Coming Soon The first online community specifically geared towards the common private pilot. Everything ranging from published VFR (Visual-Flight-Rules) trips to an online aviation community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Brickell 852953 Posted January 2, 2006 at 09:06 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 09:06 PM Marc won't be needing his INS rating back - he's switching over to VATCAN, and that, my friends, is the real loss here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Cleeremans 828954 Posted January 2, 2006 at 10:11 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 10:11 PM Instructors should: Maintain a minimum average of 10 hours per month online as an instructor. I know if he's averaging 45 mins per day then he's WELL above the 10 hours a month required. Andy Cleeremans ZLA Training Administrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted January 2, 2006 at 11:28 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 11:28 PM I know if he's averaging 45 mins per day then he's WELL above the 10 hours a month required. [MOD - No Need for this] 800012 RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Renne 818571 Posted January 2, 2006 at 11:50 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 11:50 PM (edited) I was hoping to avoid this topic at all costs but I just wanted to clarify who Marc Sykes is and why what happened over the past few days is NOT the black/white some people paint it to be. Paul - This is a real shame; why do you feel the need to be continuously pugnacious and petulant in nearly all your interactions? I know you have a lot to offer Seattle and VATUSA but is interjecting comments about me, Marc, or anyone else really that constructive? I don't want to argue with you; I just want to say I wish you could contribute your ideas in a more respectful, appropriate, and constructive tone. Marc was quite possibly the best chief ZLA ever had. He was also one of our finest controllers. Among other things, he spent many years teaching at a college in New Jersey and is unquestionably intelligent, articulate, and motivated. This was reflected in our hobby with his endless hours teaching students and working the scopes. He had every right to stroke his ego but in terms of guys whose heads are so big they can't fit through the door, Marc is at the bottom of my list. He has an unbelievable measure on what he is capable of and what he knows. This is reflected in his controlling, his leadership, and his writing. How someone of his caliber could end up in this kind of trouble is perplexing. However, I think this is a "chicken or the egg situation." Marc felt slighted from VATUSA mainly because VATUSA (or its senior management) had issues with the way he presented his criticsms. Whether it was Marc who first stepped out of line and presented his ideas in a way not conducive to the VATSIM Code of Conduct or whether it was some VATUSA staffer that started to target Marc, nobody really knows. Either way, I think you'll find that both parties were at fault to some extent. Whether this is the best way to resolve the situation is not really my place to say. People with controversial ideas don't always go over so well in society. All I can say is while Marc's comments might not have necessarily been appropriate for an ATM, Marc himself was an excellent chief and an outstanding example of leadership. For someone to sit on the sidelines and question or degrade that when he's not even a member of VATUSA anymore seems, at the very least, below the belt. Thanks, guys, for your time. Chris Edited January 3, 2006 at 12:48 AM by Guest Christian Renne Events Director/VA Liaison VATUSA (5) [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Green 810012 Posted January 2, 2006 at 11:55 PM Posted January 2, 2006 at 11:55 PM Well said Chris - on ALL points. Richard Green VATSIM Supervisor SB Testing & Support Team VRC Testing & Support Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:18 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:18 AM [MOD -No Need For this] 800012 RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Thelander 928235 Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:42 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:42 AM In my opinion the 10 hour rule is where it starts. To me, the thing is stupid and needs to be taken out regardless of what happens here Personally, I'd rather see my ARTCC chief updating the site by adding new trainees, new training procedures, answering emails, making the site more navigable, etc. than s[Mod - lovely stuff]ping all that b/c he has to get his 10 hours in on the scope. If you're not going to s[Mod - lovely stuff] the rule totally, limit it to 5 or 7 hours because no other person on that list with the exception of a few seems to be hitting the mark either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanse Watson 834810 Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:42 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:42 AM [MOD -No Need For this] 800012 RJ Chanse "CW" Watson ASRC Beta Tester Intel Core Duo 2.4GHz, BFG Tech GeForce 8800GTS 640MB PCIx16, CORSAIR 2X1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, Seagate 320GB 7200RPM 16MB CACHE SATA 3.0Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Phelan 810114 Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:46 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:46 AM Hey, Marc, welcome to Canada, eh? And welcome to the NavCan team - remember the corporate motto, "we're not happy 'til you're not happy". If the VATUSA execs don't want you down there, I'm sure that one (or many) of the FIR's up here will be happy to have your help and input - as a Canadian I would be proud to see any of our FIR's become even half of what ZLA has become under your tenure. Greg Phelan Greg Phelan Director - Flight Training VATSIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:56 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 12:56 AM [MOD -No Need For this] 800012 RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Thelander 928235 Posted January 3, 2006 at 01:03 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 01:03 AM Wow. I think I'll just finish reupdating my AI and I'll be taking a vacation from VATSIM for awhile. You childish mudslingers and namecallers can have it. 14 pages of mostly junk. There are a few good posts thrown in there, and anything actually on the original topic is on the right track. [MOD -No Need For this] 800012 RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Wadham 883221 Posted January 3, 2006 at 01:39 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 01:39 AM Hey, Marc, welcome to Canada, eh? And welcome to the NavCan team - remember the corporate motto, "we're not happy 'til you're not happy". If the VATUSA execs don't want you down there, I'm sure that one (or many) of the FIR's up here will be happy to have your help and input - as a Canadian I would be proud to see any of our FIR's become even half of what ZLA has become under your tenure. Greg Phelan Ditto to what Greg said...look forward to seeing you in Toronto Marc..it will be a welcome pleasure to see you online in Squawkbox, or even on ASRC if I can find the time to start guest controlling there. And guys, c'mon, just try and work things out. I wonder what the people at IVAO are thinking....I always thought we were the better network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Goldstein 857161 Posted January 3, 2006 at 02:14 AM Posted January 3, 2006 at 02:14 AM And guys, c'mon, just try and work things out. I wonder what the people at IVAO are thinking....I always thought we were the better network I wouldn't worry to much, they got their own bigger problems. Alex Goldstein VFR Trips - Coming Soon The first online community specifically geared towards the common private pilot. Everything ranging from published VFR (Visual-Flight-Rules) trips to an online aviation community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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