Chanse Watson 834810 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:29 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:29 PM The fact is that being demoted from instructor to controller has NOTHING to do with the roles and responsibilities of being Chief. If there is and I'm missing something, PLEASE enlighten me. Chanse "CW" Watson ASRC Beta Tester Intel Core Duo 2.4GHz, BFG Tech GeForce 8800GTS 640MB PCIx16, CORSAIR 2X1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, Seagate 320GB 7200RPM 16MB CACHE SATA 3.0Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Speranza 908835 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:34 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:34 PM The fact is that being demoted from instructor to controller has NOTHING to do with the roles and responsibilities of being Chief. If there is and I'm missing something, PLEASE enlighten me. Thank you sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:35 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:35 PM I can't believe the ZLA folk are acting this way. I mean really, I went over to the ZLA Forums MYSELF and read from Mr. Sykes own words about how he's turned his back on VATUSA and refuses to participate, If you refuse to participate with a higher up, then don't be surprised if you are removed. As for the INS Status about him not meeting the requirement, I believe this was one of many factors, he wasn't singled out for not being an Active instructor. If that was the case I'd expect them all to be dealt with as well. Marc and I have had clashes in the past, and I mean him no ill feelings, but I'm really not surprised this happened. He may know his stuff, and he may be a damn good controller, but the bottom line is, you CANNOT come into a place, take over and turn it into your playground. [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ Bottom line is, as an ATM or member of VATUSA Senior staff, you have expectations, straying from that, and becoming defiant will lead you down the wrong road. Don't start crying when you hit that dead end. Best of luck with whatever you do with your virtual career Marc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Evans Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:37 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:37 PM I'm not arguing with him being removed as chief.. that decision, scary as it may sound to some, I agree with, but losing his Instructor status on a technicality, is just plain mean, and it's clearly targeted. As I see it.. VATUSA needs to either put his back, or take 36 other people's away. Mike Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Kramer Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:41 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:41 PM What an insane thread. ZLA DATM, I1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Koczkodan 898963 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:43 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:43 PM blah blah blah.... All I'm hearing is the theme music fom Days of Our Lives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanse Watson 834810 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:45 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:45 PM blah blah blah.... All I'm hearing is the theme music fom Days of Our Lives! Welcome to VATUSA! Chanse "CW" Watson ASRC Beta Tester Intel Core Duo 2.4GHz, BFG Tech GeForce 8800GTS 640MB PCIx16, CORSAIR 2X1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, Seagate 320GB 7200RPM 16MB CACHE SATA 3.0Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hale 812757 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:49 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:49 PM (edited) I am one of those other instructors. I find nothing wrong with being used as an example by IE and I applaud his efforts. I appreciate the thought, but I don't need to be defended. [abusive language deleted] Oh gee! Could you wish me a Happy New Year too? What a complete dork. Vigorous discussion is acceptable on this forum. Abuse and name-calling is not. (Ruth McTighe VATGOV7) Edited January 1, 2006 at 11:50 PM by Guest Mike "If at first you don't succeed... Apply more force." My SoCal liveatc feed http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kont.m3u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Littlejohn Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:49 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:49 PM VATUSA forum is where it should have been posted Ian and quoting emails in a forum is not proper in my humble opinion. Now obviously everyone has their opinion on this subject and/or VATUSA policies (again, VATUSA, not VATSIM, thus my reasoning for stating why is this posted here?). From my brief stint as web master, I saw VATUSA including Jeff Turner reaching out to ZLA and Marc in an effort to include them in policy making, etc... Marc simply refused to be any part of it though and you can not have a Chief on staff who thinks he is above the rest of the staff and doesn't need to follow very simple policies. If my title was VATUSA1, Marc would have been gone much sooner. Which is one of the many reasons on why you are not VATUSA1. I've found it funny here, that you always seem to pick the most opportune time to fan the flame after something has started, Lance. You also seem to fail to grasp what Ian's post is getting at. And before you start to blast anyone on it, you have not been around long enough to have known Ian's credibility, stature, and respect that he has on this network, not only throughout VATUSA, but internationally as well. I also honestly don't believe that your 'brief' stint in VATUSA allows you the know-all to know what has been happening between MS, ZLA, and VATUSA. So, I humbly tell you (note, not ask), that unless you know the entire story of what has transpired, from start to finish, please back off, and let this pan out as it may. Your egging it on and crude comments (like the above, and the post you edited (yes, I saw it as well) are NOT welcomed, nor desired. Comments like that make one really have to wonder about your 'brief' stint in VATUSA[1]. Once again, I agree totally with Ian here. If policies are made and voted on, they need to be carried out consistently, across the board, not singled out person by person. Let's concentrate on that, and get that corrected. BL. [1] No need to read between the lines. My comment about this is very blunt and to the point. If I need to be even more blunt, contact me privately. Brad Littlejohn ZLA Senior Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Cleeremans 828954 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:50 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:50 PM Well, all issues about the removing of MS as the Chief of ZLA aside ... it's been long accepted that the monitoring of the instructor staff is to be done by the Chief Instructor (now TA) with oversight by the Training Director (VATUSA3). To be quite honest, if anyone is going to fire anyone for inactivity, it should be me. That being said, I know about many personal situations that have come up that cause an instructor to be on a LOA. We've had major vehicle accidents, getting hired by the REAL FAA, and moving to Chicago as just a few of the valid reasons that someone would not be able to be on the scopes for this "required 10 hour a month minimum". What is being forgotten here is all the work OFF the scopes that instructors do.. administering exams, cleaning up the roster, posting training notes, processing promotions, monitoring the mentor staff (which MS was doing in the absence of an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]t. chief (DATM), as WELL as the duties he was fulfilling on a daily basis here at ZLA as Chief. These duties included such daily jobs as adding new students, operating initial [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignments, etc. It was an ignorant and personal move to demote him as an instructor while removing him from Chief. Marc was one of the best instructors we had, and all chiefly issues aside, he did NOT deserve that personal attack. Andy Cleeremans ZLA Training Administrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donno Cole 813628 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:51 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:51 PM Wow, I don't know anything about Marc Sykes, I've never talked to this VATUSA1 guy, but I did fly into ZLA a few times and it was always great ATC. None of that really matters however. It seems everyone, well Ian anyways; is hung up on the fact that MS got his I1 removed. If there is indeed a VATUSA policy that says you have to log 10 hours a month as an I1 to maintain your rating, and if indeed MS did not meet that requirement, and it was discovered as part of the process of removing him as ATM of ZLA...then it was a justified action and everyone here should get over it. The IRS can be used as a good example of how situations like this can and do exist in the real world. I was audited for my 2003 taxes. In that audit it was discovered that I had deducted some business expenses that were not allowed. I had to pay interest on the difference this caused in my return, as well as monetary penalties for the error. I was auidted last year, 2005. More than two years after the return was filed. Sometimes violations of the rules are only discovered when something not related raises that violation to the surface. This is clearly the case here. The fact that MS's lack of hours was only discovered at the time of his removal as ZLA ATM is irrelevant. The only relevant item is that he did violate the policy, action was taken against him by the person chosen/appointed to administer the policy, and that is that. If there are indeed others out there that are in violation of the policy, better hop on line and get some hours in! Of course this issue, having been raised in such a very public way; is undoubtedly going to raise some eyebrows and open the door for others to be punished. Unfortunate or not, those are the rules. Now, that having been said, I'm gonna go log on in ZSE and get some hours on so I don't end up on the outs...but if I did, it would be my own fault cuz I know the rules! Donno C. Cole Donno Cole ZSE C1 COA664 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Williams Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:51 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:51 PM And before you start to blast anyone on it, you have not been around long enough to have known Ian's credibility, stature, and respect that he has on this network, not only throughout VATUSA, but internationally as well I have great respect for Ian believe me. [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ Thank you, Lance W. Hundreds of Real-World Airlines and Routes for you to fly at www.ndbair.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Littlejohn Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:53 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:53 PM And before you start to blast anyone on it, you have not been around long enough to have known Ian's credibility, stature, and respect that he has on this network, not only throughout VATUSA, but internationally as well I have great respect for Ian believe me. [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ... You just proved my point. Thank you. BL. Brad Littlejohn ZLA Senior Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hale 812757 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:53 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:53 PM And before you start to blast anyone on it, you have not been around long enough to have known Ian's credibility, stature, and respect that he has on this network, not only throughout VATUSA, but internationally as well I have great respect for Ian believe me. [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ... [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ Mike "If at first you don't succeed... Apply more force." My SoCal liveatc feed http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kont.m3u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hale 812757 Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:57 PM Posted January 1, 2006 at 11:57 PM I am one of those other instructors. I find nothing wrong with being used as an example by IE and I applaud his efforts. I appreciate the thought, but I don't need to be defended. Abusive post again deleted. All members are reminded that we expect arguments to be both polite and respectful (Ruth McTighe VATGOV7) Oh gee! Could you wish me a Happy New Year too? [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ. I[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ Mike "If at first you don't succeed... Apply more force." My SoCal liveatc feed http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kont.m3u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Turner Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:00 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:00 AM Well, all issues about the removing of MS as the Chief of ZLA aside ... it's been long accepted that the monitoring of the instructor staff is to be done by the Chief Instructor (now TA) with oversight by the Training Director (VATUSA3). To be quite honest, if anyone is going to fire anyone for inactivity, it should be me. That being said, I know about many personal situations that have come up that cause an instructor to be on a LOA. We've had major vehicle accidents, getting hired by the REAL FAA, and moving to Chicago as just a few of the valid reasons that someone would not be able to be on the scopes for this "required 10 hour a month minimum". What is being forgotten here is all the work OFF the scopes that instructors do.. administering exams, cleaning up the roster, posting training notes, processing promotions, monitoring the mentor staff (which MS was doing in the absence of an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]t. chief (DATM), as WELL as the duties he was fulfilling on a daily basis here at ZLA as Chief. These duties included such daily jobs as adding new students, operating initial [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignments, etc. It was an ignorant and personal move to demote him as an instructor while removing him from Chief. Marc was one of the best instructors we had, and all chiefly issues aside, he did NOT deserve that personal attack. Gents, I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you that the removal of Marc's instructor rating was not a personal one. I say this because I was not the only one that had a say in the matter, I was simply the guy that made the final decision. However, these points that have been made about Marc being a Air Traffic Manager and doing things behind the scenes is one that I understand and can appreciate that as I've been one for several years and in saying that I would re-instated Marc's Instructor rating if he had decided to remain a ZLA controller, and I do apologize for that error in judgement. We all do it. Additionally, I will say that I will be reviewing the backround that Ian provided and see what we can do to raise those numbers, after all, if we don't we're doing you a dis-service. Again, as I explained in the email sent to the ZLA controllers this morning, concerns can be sent to me at vatusa1@vatusa (dot) org. Jeff "JU" Turner US Army Retired http://www.skyblueradio.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Sykes 852946 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:02 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:02 AM nothing of merit The [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ of even attempting to compare logging on to the VATSIM network (as a volunteer .. as a hobby) with paying one's taxes (a legal obligation) boggles my mind. You might be able to argue that VATUSA and the IRS are somewhat similar, in terms of being bloated, openly corrupt bureaucracies, but the obligations owed to each are so different as to be incomparable. Be thankful that Lance is around, otherwise you'd have by far the dumbest post on this board today. Marc Sykes Toronto ACC Trainee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Williams Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:03 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:03 AM Mike, I can appreciate your thoughts on me. That's fine. I am however being civil here. You are clearly violating several VATSIM policies with your name calling. Thank you, Lance W. Hundreds of Real-World Airlines and Routes for you to fly at www.ndbair.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanse Watson 834810 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:04 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:04 AM (edited) Mike, I can appreciate your thoughts on me. That's fine. I am however being civil here. You are clearly violating several VATSIM policies with your name calling. Lemme see if I can try and bring back some of your PM's through the ZLA ARTCC forums from you Lance...I'm quite sure that you would be in the same boat! Edited January 2, 2006 at 12:05 AM by Guest Chanse "CW" Watson ASRC Beta Tester Intel Core Duo 2.4GHz, BFG Tech GeForce 8800GTS 640MB PCIx16, CORSAIR 2X1GB DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, Seagate 320GB 7200RPM 16MB CACHE SATA 3.0Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Walsh Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:04 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:04 AM [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ Abusive post again deleted. Copying an abusive post is equally unacceptable. (Ruth McTIghe VATGOV7) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Goldstein 857161 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:07 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:07 AM Ok, this is the point where topics like this should be closed. If you are going to take part in it, stay on the damn subject. It seems as this has digressed into an "everyone hates Lance" and "who has the dumbest post" argument. Lets stay on the topic. Alex Goldstein VFR Trips - Coming Soon The first online community specifically geared towards the common private pilot. Everything ranging from published VFR (Visual-Flight-Rules) trips to an online aviation community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donno Cole 813628 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:09 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:09 AM nothing of merit The [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ of even attempting to compare logging on to the VATSIM network (as a volunteer .. as a hobby) with paying one's taxes (a legal obligation) boggles my mind. You might be able to argue that VATUSA and the IRS are somewhat similar, in terms of being bloated, openly corrupt bureaucracies, but the obligations owed to each are so different as to be incomparable. Be thankful that Lance is around, otherwise you'd have by far the dumbest post on this board today. [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ It amazes me that you are completely unable to see the outright similarities I was pointing out. As your trumpeting warrior of righteousness and equality, Ian; has been saying all day, can't you see the issue? I was pointing out that sometimes violations of the rules are only punished after they are discovered. It had nothing to do with the two agencies (IRS and VATUSA) being similar. Hmm, I'll be sure to avoid flying in Canadian airspace as a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger anytime between now and the time you reach the mandatory retirement age...[Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming you get through training at all. Donno Cole ZSE C1 COA664 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Heaney 879309 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:11 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:11 AM I wish we could all get along.... everyone repeat after me........... MEKKA LEKKA HI MEKKA HINEE HO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hale 812757 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:12 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:12 AM (edited) [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ It was merely a public service for the deficient among us. We must, after all, remain ADA compliant. This is a final warning about the use of abusive language. Further reposts will result in, at minimum, suspension from the forum, and may be subject to further disciplinary action. Ref. Code of Conduct section A11 (Ruth McTighe VATGOV7) Edited January 2, 2006 at 12:13 AM by Guest Mike "If at first you don't succeed... Apply more force." My SoCal liveatc feed http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kont.m3u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Koczkodan 898963 Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:12 AM Posted January 2, 2006 at 12:12 AM GOOSE-FRABBA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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