Harold Rutila 974112 Posted January 25, 2012 at 01:07 AM Posted January 25, 2012 at 01:07 AM Ross, At Denver International (KDEN), I am unable to make top-down-mode show me the information we're supposed to see. All I see are targets with no secondary/beacon information. Also, even while using altitude filters, I am unable to eliminate ground clutter at Denver. I see the same thing as described above: all targets. Could this be an elevation issue with the airport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted January 25, 2012 at 04:17 AM Posted January 25, 2012 at 04:17 AM At Denver International (KDEN), I am unable to make top-down-mode show me the information we're supposed to see. All I see are targets with no secondary/beacon information. TDM targets aren't supposed to have secondary or beacon info. Also, even while using altitude filters, I am unable to eliminate ground clutter at Denver. I see the same thing as described above: all targets. How do you have your radar sites set up? Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted January 25, 2012 at 01:39 PM Author Posted January 25, 2012 at 01:39 PM At Denver International (KDEN), I am unable to make top-down-mode show me the information we're supposed to see. All I see are targets with no secondary/beacon information. TDM targets aren't supposed to have secondary or beacon info. Sorry, what I meant was that I don't see the callsign, aircraft type, or scratchpad for the targets as the manual says we are supposed to. Also, even while using altitude filters, I am unable to eliminate ground clutter at Denver. I see the same thing as described above: all targets. How do you have your radar sites set up? I'll have to check with Casey to verify the setup, but we have two radar sites modeling the real airspace. Irondale ASR is just south of DEN, and Platteville about 40 miles north of DEN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 02:31 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 02:31 PM I'll post the radar site section here. Ross, is there some way I can get our whole file to you? I was wondering if TDM isn't working because maybe the KDEN altitude is incorrect? I don't know how to check that base file. Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahul Parkar Posted January 25, 2012 at 03:10 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 03:10 PM Export the facility and email it to him? Cheers! Rahul Rahul Parkar "On second thoughts Nappa, catch it, catch it with your teeth" -- Vegeta Professional Nerd. (Professionally not professional) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 03:12 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 03:12 PM As promised: <RadarSites> <RadarSite IsPrimary="true" Character="I" ID="IRO" Elevation="5269" FloorSlope="-4" PrimaryRange="60" SecondaryRange="120" ConeOfSilenceSlope="49.95"> <Location Lon="-104.67433" Lat="39.82334" /> </RadarSite> <RadarSite IsPrimary="false" Character="P" ID="PLA" Elevation="4991" FloorSlope="0.459" PrimaryRange="60" SecondaryRange="120" ConeOfSilenceSlope="49.5"> <Location Lon="-104.71858" Lat="40.296639" /> </RadarSite> </RadarSites> <RadarSite>-1</RadarSite> Not sure what that last radar site thing is. But it was created by vSTARS via an export, so I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume it should be there. And I'm not sure I have Ross' email. Where would I find that? Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahul Parkar Posted January 25, 2012 at 05:09 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 05:09 PM (Or email it to me, my email is the same as the vstars website with the first dot changed to an @.) From my question regarding MSAW polygons in which he then proceeded to use Voodoo magic to fix. Cheers! Rahul Rahul Parkar "On second thoughts Nappa, catch it, catch it with your teeth" -- Vegeta Professional Nerd. (Professionally not professional) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhruv Kalra Posted January 25, 2012 at 06:08 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 06:08 PM Your floor slope on the DEN radar site is negative. That means it's looking downward on the field? Dhruv Kalra VATUSA ZMP ATM | Instructor | VATSIM Network Supervisor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 06:55 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 06:55 PM (edited) Hah. Yes. I did that while testing and I guess I forgot to put it back. That is the site nearest to KDEN and I was trying to figure out why TDM wasn't working. I didn't think that was the issue, but was testing with the negative value. Doing so [obviously] allowed me to see the aircraft on the ground, but didn't seem to make TDM work at all. No, the radar site doesn't look down. The actual floor slope should be "0.459", just like the other one. And we have confirmed that the RW radar site cannot 'see' aircraft on the ground due to the slope, so I'm pretty sure that floor slope is accurate (.459, not -4). And I send Ross a link to our file via PM, and he has already responded; so I'm not going to bother emailing him. Edited January 25, 2012 at 07:06 PM by Guest Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted January 25, 2012 at 06:59 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 06:59 PM Targets will not show in TDM mode if they are visible to a radar site. (Meaning, they'll still show as regular airborne targets.) Does setting the slope back to 0.459 correct the issue with TDM? Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 07:12 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 07:12 PM I don't think so, but I will try it again to be sure. Now the order of events is a little hazy to me. Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted January 25, 2012 at 07:20 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 07:20 PM I noticed that the KDEN elevation is 5431, which is above your radar site, so that's probably the issue, unless your radar site is far enough away that a/c on the ground would be below the floor slope. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 09:43 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 09:43 PM Yea, you might be right. BUT.... both of those numbers (as best as I can tell) are accurate. If you look at an topo map of the area around KDEN, it is a real mess. And just because it is below the actual airport, doesn't mean they can see ground traffic on their scopes. What with buildings and such..... Let me test a couple different set ups with this info in mind. Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:10 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:10 PM Yes, that did it. It looks like it was the fact that the radar site actually sits below the airport by a couple hundred feet. So what was happening was that TDM wasn't activating. And therefore aircraft that hadn't filed a flight plan yet were showing up as primary targets only, with none of that other useful info. Bummer that we can't use the real elevation data for that radar site.. but... oh..... wait..... Ok, now I don't care anymore. Thanks all. Harold, I'll email you a link to the file with this fix in it. Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:16 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:16 PM And just because it is below the actual airport, doesn't mean they can see ground traffic on their scopes. What you say is only true of the real world, not vSTARS ... there is no terrain/obstruction modeling in vSTARS. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:21 PM Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:21 PM Yes. Of course. When I said that, I was [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that was clear to everyone. That comment was referring to earlier in the thread where I said that we confirmed that on the real world scopes they cannot see aircraft on the ramp on their scopes. So what I was saying was, the difference between real world and vSTARS could be precisely that. They can't see them in the real world because of the obstructions, and that isn't modeled by vSTARS. Good lord, making MSAWs is bad enough, if we had to input terrain or other obstruction info...... Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Rutila 974112 Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:45 PM Author Posted January 25, 2012 at 10:45 PM Thanks guys! You're the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Geckler Posted January 26, 2012 at 12:19 AM Posted January 26, 2012 at 12:19 AM ... there is no terrain/obstruction modeling in vSTARS. Feature request? Ryan Geckler - GK | Former VATUSA3 - Division Training Manager VATSIM Minneapolis ARTCC | FAA Miami ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 26, 2012 at 12:34 AM Posted January 26, 2012 at 12:34 AM no! Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted January 26, 2012 at 03:46 AM Posted January 26, 2012 at 03:46 AM ... there is no terrain/obstruction modeling in vSTARS. Feature request? I came very close to adding the ability to define terrain ridgelines that could block radar signals. Then I decided that if I'm going to do terrain modeling, I really need to do it right, using actual digital elevation models of real terrain. Definitely might happen in a later version. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board of Governors Nicholas Cavacini Posted January 26, 2012 at 04:21 AM Board of Governors Posted January 26, 2012 at 04:21 AM I came very close to adding the ability to define terrain ridgelines that could block radar signals. Then I decided that if I'm going to do terrain modeling, I really need to do it right, using actual digital elevation models of real terrain. Definitely might happen in a later version. Defiantly do it right and use the digital elevation models. Not of much use for the terrain databases for us in ZMA for the obvious reason that Florida is generally flat. Still would be an amazing feature though. NickVice President - SupervisorsVATSIM Board of Governors Contact the Supervisor Team | Could you be a Supervisor? Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own and not representative of the official opinion of the VATSIM Board of Governors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Roden 987596 Posted January 28, 2012 at 10:28 PM Posted January 28, 2012 at 10:28 PM That would be a tough one to do. I'd enjoy seeing it. What I would like more is putting the weather radar on top of the screen. Tim Roden ZAN C3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carlson Posted January 28, 2012 at 10:48 PM Posted January 28, 2012 at 10:48 PM What I would like more is putting the weather radar on top of the screen. That's something that I'll only do if VATSIM develops a weather system that has the precipitation in the same place for both controllers and pilots. Otherwise it's just eye candy. Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey Diers 981110 Posted January 28, 2012 at 10:53 PM Posted January 28, 2012 at 10:53 PM aren't the Vatsim metars used by controllers the same as those available to pilots who choose to use Vatsim weather? pilots can chose to use other weather, but there will never be any way to force pilots to use Vatsim weather. Casey ZDV_CI C1 MTN1474 / Mountain Air VP of Administration / Commercial Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hawton Posted January 28, 2012 at 11:09 PM Posted January 28, 2012 at 11:09 PM aren't the Vatsim metars used by controllers the same as those available to pilots who choose to use Vatsim weather? pilots can chose to use other weather, but there will never be any way to force pilots to use Vatsim weather. Which doesn't matter much anyway as each Flight Sim client renders it differently. The METAR affects an area, and if it's -RA (for instance), the rain spots will be in different places, tops of clouds different, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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