What Happened At KJAX Event?

[Aharon Dayan]

What happened during KJAX event tonight? JAX APP North vanished while I was sent flying into wrong direction toward Gulf of Mexico 25 minutes off the course from destination: KJAX runway 08.

 

I had participated in thousands of tough Vatsim events full of crowded air space and never had experienced one hour and half delay due to being sending off on wrong direction way way far from destination airport KJAX toward Gulf of Mexico.

 

And to top this, when I was on final approach to runway 08, I was forced by TWR to abort landing and go around meaning another delay for me.

 

So far it was 90 minutes of wild goose misdirection.

 

My trip from KORF to KJAX was supposed to be 90 minute flight. It was almost 3 hours. Good thing I requested immediate vectors to runway 08 after excessive misdirections and they accepted my request.

 

I thought that if a APP controller vanishes, it is responsibility of other APPs to contact planes and take over their coordination??? So far I was flying in wrong direction at APP's orders not realizing for 20 minutes that the APP vanished.

 

Aharon

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

its never the controllers responsibility to contact the pilot. its the pilots responsibility

 

so if there were multiple approach controllers handling jacksonville, if the one you were with disappears (can happen for any reason, power outtage, atc client error, etc...) then its your responsibility to try and reach the next controller thats online, let them know the issue and theyll work with you from there

 

also remember approach doesnt have a very large airspace, if you were getting too far from there airport, it is again your job to speak up and make sure they have not forgotten about you, otherwise you will go outside their airspace. happens even in the real world, if you dont speak up theyll never remember about you. has happened on a few of my real world flights, last time i didnt get my landing clearance until short final because they completely forgot about me, so had to remind them. luckily my cessna isnt very fast

[Kevin Yang]

What happened during KJAX event tonight? JAX APP North vanished while I was sent flying into wrong direction toward Gulf of Mexico 25 minutes off the course from destination: KJAX runway 08.

Possible power outage or connection issue I am guessing. It can happen for any reason, possibly if the area the controller was at experienced severe weather.

And to top this, when I was on final approach to runway 08, I was forced by TWR to abort landing and go around meaning another delay for me.

If another plane was still on the runway, would you prefer to land and crash into another aircraft instead? Go-arounds happen all the time, even in the real world. I don't see what the issue was. A while ago, when I was flying, the tower controller instructed another aircraft that was landing to go around, and that was because I was still on the runway, so he obviously wasn't going to have the other plane land and crash into me. I was still on the runway because there was a guy ahead of me on the taxiway, who happened to be stuck behind ANOTHER guy that wasn't responding to the tower controller's instructions and instead was just sitting there. The main point being that you can be issued a go-around instruction for any number of reasons. And technically, tower didn't force you to do anything, he merely gave you instructions. As the pilot in command, it's your responsibility to ensure that it is actually safe to follow those instructions because believe it or not, controllers can make mistakes, too.

I thought that if a APP controller vanishes, it is responsibility of other APPs to contact planes and take over their coordination???

What if the other controllers weren't aware that the one controller disappeared. I'm sure they aren't psychic.

[Anthony Pavlak 1058071]

Sequestration happened. Everybody has to sacrifice.

[Romano Lara]

Hmm, they were swamped, literally. Props to the ZJX crew for trying and making their best. Except for a few holds here and there, everything went uneventful for me.

 

JBU611

[Aharon Dayan]

Sequestration happened. Everybody has to sacrifice.

 

Anthony,

 

Yes you are absolutely correct and it enhances real world realism. I have NO NO NO problems with that. Yes it happened to me few times at KSFO during KSAN to KSFO runs or CYYZ during KJFK/KLGA to CYYZ runs and it was proper circling under prompt coordinations from controllers who did prompt job informing pilots as well as me the reasons for circling.

 

During my flight from KORF to KJAX, JAX CTR 10 did wonderful job with sequestration asking me to reduce from mach 0.83 to 0.70 and then asked me to go back to normal speed at my discreet. I noticed from looking at airspace that he made other planes do some circling while I continued my normal flight route path to KJAX.

 

But when I was switched to JAX APP NORTH in this case, it was not sequestration. I was simply sent off in wrong direction toward Gulf of Mexico instead of the airport of destination which was KJAX. Yes I did requested clarification for this but did not do after second request because I thought it would be rude to bother busy controllers so I kept my mouth quiet while waiting patiently for next order until I realized it was bit odd to see my plane way way way way far from the airport (20 minute away) so I decided to send PM to JAX APP NORTH only to find out that it vanished so I made 180 degree turn back to KJAX and contacted JAX APP SOUTH explaining the reasons of unauthorized turn and unauthorized heading toward KJAX.

 

Oh well this is very bizzarre. At least I did the piloting job being very polite, respectful, patient, and keeping my mouth quiet during misdirection adventure.

 

Aharon

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Anthony was joking with the sequestration comment. it was sarcasm

[Anthony Pavlak 1058071]

You left feedback on JAX Center's website yes? Airing dirty laundry in public isn't the best way to get results or make friends. Sorry you're frustrated.

[Aharon Dayan]

Anthony was joking with the sequestration comment. it was sarcasm

 

ohhh I did not realize he was joking.

 

Aharon

[Kyle Schoen 1112001]

Yes I did requested clarification for this but did not do after second request because I thought it would be rude to bother busy controllers so I kept my mouth quiet while waiting patiently for next order until I realized it was bit odd to see my plane way way way way far from the airport (20 minute away) so I decided to send PM to JAX APP NORTH only to find out that it vanished so I made 180 degree turn back to KJAX and contacted JAX APP SOUTH explaining the reasons of unauthorized turn and unauthorized heading toward KJAX.

 

In the past, I've worked next to controllers who have dropped unexpectedly due to a loss of electricity or other connection issues. It does make things harder for everyone else but, unfortunately, it happens. I wanted to mention that it is usually not a good idea to attempt to PM controllers during an event. If you really need to get a controller's attention, please try the frequency using voice or text. Opening up five different PMs with five different pilots is almost impossible sometimes.

 

Sorry to hear it wasn't the best experience. I wasn't able to fly for the event, so my comments are just based on your account.

[Aharon Dayan]

Airing dirty laundry in public isn't the best way to get results or make friends. Sorry you're frustrated.

 

Anthony,

 

Many Vatsim controllers such as VATCAN and VATCAR as well as VATIL and VATUSA know me very very very well enough to know I am world's most polite Vatsim member and this thread does NOT mean as what you say in your own words "Airing dirty laundry in public".

 

I made this post in hope somebody would suggest better procedures or current methods in event this similar situation happens. During this KJAX event, I did notice other many pilots having trouble reaching JAX APP NORTH and they did not know what to do.

 

This thread is in NO NO NO NO way to offend KJAX controllers or is not not not airing dirty laundry.

 

I am NOT NOT kind of person who does what you call "airing dirty laundry".

 

Notice Ernesto Alvarez's first reply post which was to suggest methods or procedures for this situation. He being VATSIM controller did not even call it dirty laundry.

 

Aharon

[Joaquin Blanco]

I took part in the KJAX FNO last night. There was an incredible amount of traffic both inbound and outbound and

considering the airport is not very large and landing/departing was from a single runway must have put quite a lot

of pressure on the Controllers. I was put on hold for a while and could see that the approach area around the airport

was saturating, later they almost forgot about me on the downwind, but to be honest they gave me excellent service

and got me on the ground in the end. In real life a couple of approach controllers would find dealing with so much traffic

very difficult, so despite the odd hick-up, thank you guys. When is the next?

[Kevin Yang]

Sequestration happened. Everybody has to sacrifice.

 

Anthony,

 

Yes you are absolutely correct and it enhances real world realism. I have NO NO NO problems with that. Yes it happened to me few times at KSFO during KSAN to KSFO runs or CYYZ during KJFK/KLGA to CYYZ runs and it was proper circling under prompt coordinations from controllers who did prompt job informing pilots as well as me the reasons for circling.

 

During my flight from KORF to KJAX, JAX CTR 10 did wonderful job with sequestration asking me to reduce from mach 0.83 to 0.70 and then asked me to go back to normal speed at my discreet. I noticed from looking at airspace that he made other planes do some circling while I continued my normal flight route path to KJAX.

 

But when I was switched to JAX APP NORTH in this case, it was not sequestration. I was simply sent off in wrong direction toward Gulf of Mexico instead of the airport of destination which was KJAX. Yes I did requested clarification for this but did not do after second request because I thought it would be rude to bother busy controllers so I kept my mouth quiet while waiting patiently for next order until I realized it was bit odd to see my plane way way way way far from the airport (20 minute away) so I decided to send PM to JAX APP NORTH only to find out that it vanished so I made 180 degree turn back to KJAX and contacted JAX APP SOUTH explaining the reasons of unauthorized turn and unauthorized heading toward KJAX.

 

Oh well this is very bizzarre. At least I did the piloting job being very polite, respectful, patient, and keeping my mouth quiet during misdirection adventure.

As you are aware, Anthony was joking, but one thing I wanted to point out is that you got sequestration confused with separation. What you described was separation, not sequestration. Sequestration was when they cut funding, so as a result, some towers were getting shut down.

Many Vatsim controllers such as VATCAN and VATCAR as well as VATIL and VATUSA know me very very very well enough to know I am world's most polite Vatsim member

Do you have any way of backing this up? Have all other pilots and controllers told you this?

[Anthony Pavlak 1058071]

I think a polite pilot would leave constructive feedback to the concerned ARTCC instead of complaining on a public forum.

 

I'm not polite, myself, I'm just saying that's what a polite person would do.

[Bradford Lee]

To put it in the simplest of terms, we were extremely busy, and the fact that arrivals were spaced so close together meant that we had to keep it as tight as possible to ensure separation, which yes at times was lost. I know because I was one of the Approach controllers.

 

I would like to add though that everyone -- even I've been guilty of it here and in my real-world job -- should slow down and speak clearly and listen before speaking. Whenyoutalklikethisallatonce it can get lost in translation which results in our having to give corrections, resequencing, etc, which during an event can quickly mess up the whole flow, as we all saw. Add in the fact that everyone was more or less talking on top of one another which makes it sound like literal gibberish in my ear, and that only adds another layer of confusion. Unless you have urgent traffic such as fuel, wait for a break in communications to pop in.

 

That and don't just stick a callsign out there like "FDX4028 with you". Ok with me where? Give me distance from a fix, it helps me know where to look on my scope, especially for those of us having to do everything on only one monitor. I make a point of doing that whenever I get p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed between controllers, even if there hasn't been a radar contact loss. If I take a handoff from the other controller, sure I'm saying yea I will work you into the sequence, but at the same time if I pick you up and you don't contact me for 5 minutes when you're 10 miles out from the field at 12,000 and 270 and complaining of bingo fuel -- poor fuel planning on the pilot btw, figure in an hour reserve AT LEAST for a large event -- that's also on you for not calling me earlier after center sent you to me. Let me know you're with me and where you are! If you don't come to me soon, if I don't see you're an immediate conflict I'm going back to working my immediate approach vectors.

 

I do apologize to those I did forget. Everytime I tried to zoom out and get a bigger picture I'd have 3 people in my ear wanting to talk at once so I would have to see what they needed. Beginning to see now? It's not about me-me-me. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. And help us out too. Slow down as we descend you, that's what spoilers and flaps are for. I know when I fly my approaches, I stage my flaps and spoilers and slow as I come in to give myself separation from the guy in front of me. If I end up stacking up on someone behind me, the controller will hopefully see it and deal with it.

 

MOCHA HAGOTDI, thanks good day!

[Sebastien Bartosz]

Don't know what to do if a controller gets disconnected?

 

CHARTS. No more, no less.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Brad, just something to add, if you accepted a handoff, you should technically know where that aircraft is, otherwise you should not be accepting those handoffs

 

when ATC gives a pilot the instruction to contact the next the controller, thats an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]urance that the next guy already knows where the pilot is unless otherwise specified. so there should be no need for pilots to include location if they are handed off.

 

maybe i read your post wrong, but something that popped out in it

[Kevin Yang]

Brad, just something to add, if you accepted a handoff, you should technically know where that aircraft is, otherwise you should not be accepting those handoffs

 

when ATC gives a pilot the instruction to contact the next the controller, thats an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]urance that the next guy already knows where the pilot is unless otherwise specified. so there should be no need for pilots to include location if they are handed off.

 

maybe i read your post wrong, but something that popped out in it

Think you may have. It sounded like he was saying if he accepts a hand-off and the pilot that's being handed off doesn't call until five minutes later, he wouldn't know where the pilot is. That's how I read it, anyway.

[Bradford Lee]

Brad, just something to add, if you accepted a handoff, you should technically know where that aircraft is, otherwise you should not be accepting those handoffs

 

when ATC gives a pilot the instruction to contact the next the controller, thats an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]urance that the next guy already knows where the pilot is unless otherwise specified. so there should be no need for pilots to include location if they are handed off.

 

maybe i read your post wrong, but something that popped out in it

 

 

I can see what you mean Ernesto, what I was getting at though was the guys who get handed off to me, they don't call me at first, and before I have time to request they contact me, I'm having to look over at something else, or 3 or 4 something elses, then when that guy that got handed off to me FINALLY gets around to talking to me, he's 15 miles away from where I picked him up at and that's when he throws a callsign out, which I've likely forgotten after talking to the other callsigns on final. Yes it's on me to know where the aircraft are, true, but it's also on the pilots to call me in a timely manner so my picture of where they're at in my head matches as close as possible to where they are.

 

Edit: Kevin gets it, lol!

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

thanks makes more sense now.

[Kevin Yang]

Funny story, actually. I remember one time being handed off to the next controller, so I went on the next controller's frequency. I was waiting until I'd be able to get a word in, but there were enough pilots talking to ATC and the controller responding that I didn't actually get a chance to get a word in since I was hearing instruction after instruction after instruction after instruction, and I certainly didn't want to talk over the controller. Couple minutes later, the next set of instructions that I heard over the frequency....was intended for me. I didn't think the controller knew I was on the frequency, but I wasn't going to question it. At least he knew I was there.

[Daniel Hawton]

Brad, just something to add, if you accepted a handoff, you should technically know where that aircraft is, otherwise you should not be accepting those handoffs

 

when ATC gives a pilot the instruction to contact the next the controller, thats an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]urance that the next guy already knows where the pilot is unless otherwise specified. so there should be no need for pilots to include location if they are handed off.

 

maybe i read your post wrong, but something that popped out in it

 

 

I can see what you mean Ernesto, what I was getting at though was the guys who get handed off to me, they don't call me at first, and before I have time to request they contact me, I'm having to look over at something else, or 3 or 4 something elses, then when that guy that got handed off to me FINALLY gets around to talking to me, he's 15 miles away from where I picked him up at and that's when he throws a callsign out, which I've likely forgotten after talking to the other callsigns on final. Yes it's on me to know where the aircraft are, true, but it's also on the pilots to call me in a timely manner so my picture of where they're at in my head matches as close as possible to where they are.

 

Edit: Kevin gets it, lol!

 

Brad, from a real world perspective, pilots are not always immediately switched on handoff acceptance. 7110.65 recommends it, but the word usage is should vice shall when it comes to transferring communications immediately upon transfer of identification. Just because a plane was at N86.23 E120.55 heading 180 at time of handoff and doesn't call for 3 minutes doesn't mean you should forget where the plane is. At time of handoff, you should know: A) where is the plane? B) what is the route the plane is taking? C) is that plane going to conflict with anything in my airspace so that I can coordinate restrictions prior to acceptance (ie, an [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned heading, altitude, speed, etc.)? D) Where am I fitting this plane in in my sequence? If you don't know A-D, you shouldn't be accepting that handoff. If you can't accept the handoff, coordinate holding ASAP, especially if D is a big unknown. A-D are some of the biggest checks you should do, and are the most forgotten on VATSIM. Another recommendation, work on scanning. If you forgot the plane's location, your scan is gone. I work in a opposite direction traffic scan, from airport backward up the final approach course, downwind, then out to the birds in the airspace in a circular fashion. That is what works best for me and helps me ensure I don't lose my targets (real world and VATSIM when I'm only worried about a single airport.. if multiple, I tend to work in a Z pattern).

 

Not trying to pick on you, but just trying to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] a few words of advice. From my time at ZJX, I noticed most controllers seemed fearful of asking for holds until it was too late because it made them look like they "couldn't take the pressure". If JAX airport saw even 1/10th of that traffic load at peak like you saw, you can bet JAX would've been calling for holds and ZJX would've been issuing EDCTs.

[Bradford Lee]

Appreciate the tip Dan! It was a mess on all sides, agreed, but it could have gone worse. We did get a good amount of planes down. I'd say moreso it was a trial by fire in terms of discovering the traffic capacity for JAX, heh.

[Aharon Dayan]

As you are aware, Anthony was joking, but one thing I wanted to point out is that you got sequestration confused with separation. What you described was separation, not sequestration. Sequestration was when they cut funding, so as a result, some towers were getting shut down.

 

I as well as everybody know what sequestration is. I thought the poster was making typo for the actual word sequence which was why I agreed with him about sequence or separation not realizing he was actually making joke on sequestration.

 

Aharon

[Kevin Yang]

As you are aware, Anthony was joking, but one thing I wanted to point out is that you got sequestration confused with separation. What you described was separation, not sequestration. Sequestration was when they cut funding, so as a result, some towers were getting shut down.

I as well as everybody know what sequestration is. I thought the poster was making typo for the actual word sequence which was why I agreed with him about sequence or separation not realizing he was actually making joke on sequestration.

....how in blue blazes do you get sequestration from sequence. Sure, the first five letters may still be the same, but after that, sequestration has so many more letters afterwards compared to sequence. I'm asking a serious question, as I fail to see how that could be a typo. That's more like use of a different word.