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KZLA Complaint


Jon Wilder 1268033
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Scott, I say you are wrong.

 

There is a Preferred/Suggested runway listed on those websites, but that does not make them designated or the correct runway.

 

You should also note that SOP's and LOA's are only there for controller convenience, they are not for pilots, and pilots are not expected to know them.

 

Kirk, I did clarify that it does not designate which runway, but which direction. And most ARTCC websites have a section for pilots, giving all sorts of valuable information.

 

Done.

 

 

Scott DeWoody

CEO - American Virtual Airlines

joinava dot org

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Personally, I think you are all wrong...

 

And now that I have your attention, that was of course, in jest... as I see it, the complaint is justified although not really a complaint but more a concern as to why it happened the way it did. As controllers we have to realize that pilots come in all skill levels from the 13 year old that can only fly with an FMC to the seasoned RW pilot that can handle the sim as if it were a real aircraft that he has a thousand hours in.

 

To me the concern is that the approach controller changed the approach at a point where the pilot would have normally already received his clearance for the approach (a point at which the controller would not change anything except in very unusual situations.) The controller could not have known the skill level of the pilot (it's not like the real world where if you are alive and flying in instrument conditions it is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed that you can handle the situation) and therefore had no guarantee that the pilot could successfully change the approach even if he wanted to.

 

The pilot informed the controller (in a round about way) that he was unable to make the change so the controller did not have much choice but to allow him to continue. No mystery there...

 

The controller would have better served the pilot in this situation by not changing anything and holding any departures, if any even existed, or having them turn asap after departure. There are other ways to provide safe separations without abruptly changing the ongoing approach of an aircraft.

 

I see no issue with the 'preferred runway' discussion. The preferred runway is preferred because the pilots want to land into the wind and not downwind. Preferred to a controller is facility preferences but the controller was not online. Pilots cannot be expected to go to any website to conform to facility preferences when the facility is not in operation. I'm not going to land downwind because it is preferred by a facility that is not online.

 

And the pilot could not have known the experience level of the controller. Believe me, there are pilots that are quite capable of value added experiences for the controllers when they do speak up...

 

But, that is just my observations from a fairly new controller. Your opinions certainly vary.

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To me the concern is that the approach controller changed the approach at a point where the pilot would have normally already received his clearance for the approach (a point at which the controller would not change anything except in very unusual situations.) The controller could not have known the skill level of the pilot (it's not like the real world where if you are alive and flying in instrument conditions it is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed that you can handle the situation) and therefore had no guarantee that the pilot could successfully change the approach even if he wanted to.

The controller also may not have known that the pilot was already planning an approach to 25 right rather than 25 left. With the two runways being parallel, he probably [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed the pilot was going to shoot for 25 left since 25 left is normally used for landing at this airport. If, say, for instance, he was landing on 25 right, and when the controller came on, 19s were active, I would think looking at the radar, it would be pretty clear that the pilot was aiming for the 25s, at which point the controller would likely ask what was going on (again, referring back to my example and experience at JFK). With the 25s being active and parallel to each other, it may not have been so obvious.

The controller would have better served the pilot in this situation by not changing anything and holding any departures, if any even existed, or having them turn asap after departure. There are other ways to provide safe separations without abruptly changing the ongoing approach of an aircraft.

As I understood the original post, the controller DIDN'T change anything, and the pilot was cleared for 25 right as planned. Hence why we fail to see the issue unless I'm misunderstanding your post.

Captain Kevin

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As I understood the original post, the controller DIDN'T change anything, and the pilot was cleared for 25 right as planned. Hence why we fail to see the issue unless I'm misunderstanding your post.

 

Yes, the controller changed the approach as the pilot was intercepting the localizer. The pilot unsuccessfully attempted to change per the controllers instructions but the FMC continued on the original approach. The pilot was not skilled enough to make the change at this point in the approach and so told the controller this. Wherein the controller then had no choice but to allow the approach to continue.

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This video should be required watching

http://vimeo.com/64502012

 

watch from 04:00 to 10:30 (if you cant watch the whole vid)

 

I completely agree with you Kevin. Our problem, however, is that VATSIM pilots seldom follow conventional training programs. Instead of starting to learn to fly in Cessna 152's they chose the biggest, baddest, airliner in FSX. Prime example is the 'first flight' aircraft I had this morning. The pilot chose a B747-400 for his first flight. He never got off the ground and could not even set his transponder....

 

Many VATSIM pilots start by trial and error and fly by the FMC.

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you cant really say whether the controller in this situation realized he was setup for the right instead of the left after issuing the clearance and the OP had requested the right, or whether he simply had no choice at that point.

 

we've only heard from one side, and likely wont hear from the other side as this isnt the place for that

 

however i will point to this part of the OP's post

 

I'm making callouts on UNICOM announcing my every move as I do. I'm already established within 5 minutes of touching down when I get the "Please contact me on 125.80" message.

 

So I contact him and I'm thinking he's gonna just continue my approach as I've been calling it out. He gives me my squawk code and wants to change my clearance to 25L right as I'm about to line up on the localizer for 25R!

 

Jon seems to have [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed that since he was making his calls on 122.8 that the controller was also receiving those before he logged on. i would ask how he initially contacted the controller, did he mention he was on the approach for the right or just said "with you on approach las vegas" or however many ways some pilots tend to do which doesnt give the controller too much info to work off of.

 

and then according to this part of his post

 

So I did my best. I flew the heading he told me to fly to intercept the localizer, but I honestly didn't have time to fully reconfigure the approach in my FMC as close as I was to touching down so I ended up established on the localizer for rwy 25R. I contacted center to notify them of this, in which they did allow me to come down on 25R.

 

the minute he let center know of the issue, they gave him 25R.

 

its pretty clear there was a failure to communicate from the OP's own post. his "issue" was the inconvenience, however according to what was written, he never communicated what he was actually doing then what the controller [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed he was doing when he logged on. 5 minutes is more then enough time to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] all the information you need and coordinate with each other.

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