"Climb Via SID" On non-altitude restricted SIDs?

January 1, 2015 at 02:50 AM

In the last couple months I've noticed a lot more "climb via SID..." instructions when A) the SID contains no altitude restrictions or B) no SID is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned at all. Is this appropriate? Can someone clear this up for me?

For example, I'll pick on my own airspace:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1413/00065buffalo.pdf

KBUF's radar vector departure has no altitude restrictions except "Maintain 10000 or [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned lower altitude. Expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level ten (10) minutes after departure."

How would one justify a clearance of "... climb via SID, except maintain 10,000, expect FL350 10 min after dep ..." on a departure similar to this one? FAAO7110.65 still allows the "old fashioned" climb and maintain phraseology.

Example 2:

Departing KUNI an airport with no SIDs, how can one give "... climb via SID, except maintain 10,000, expect FL350 10 min after dep ..."? There is no SID to comply with!

Example 3:

This one actually makes sense I think.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1413/00662tralr.pdf

KLAS's TRALR departure has multiple crossing restrictions. "climb via SID" makes perfect sense here, and then an "except maintain" some new top altitude if other than what's published.

January 1, 2015 at 02:52 AM

ive heard the same, i [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume its just following the script. but ive had to ask at least twice recently as to what altitude they wanted since the procedure had none

January 1, 2015 at 02:57 AM

In the last couple months I've noticed a lot more "climb via SID..." instructions when A) the SID contains no altitude restrictions or B) no SID is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned at all. Is this appropriate? Can someone clear this up for me?

A) If there truly are no altitude or speed restrictions, then no, it wouldn't make sense.

B) This certainly doesn't make sense and would lead to a clearance I as a pilot wouldn't accept (because I would be under the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that either I haven't understood something or the controller hasn't understood something).

KBUF's radar vector departure has no altitude restrictions except "Maintain 10000 or [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned lower altitude. Expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level ten (10) minutes after departure."

Why the "except" there? That certainly sounds like an altitude restriction to me.

EDIT: Disregard - turns out the 7110.65 specifically refers to the SID having a "crossing restriction." I don't think this one qualifies for that, so you're right - "climb via" shouldn't be used.

How would one justify a clearance of "... climb via SID, except maintain 10,000, expect FL350 10 min after dep ..." on a departure similar to this one? FAAO7110.65 still allows te "old fashioned" climb and maintain phraseology.

One could justify it because the SID does indeed have an altitude restriction. Additionally, you've actually got duplicate information in there. I'd personally short it to "... climb via SID; departure frequency..." because the 10k and cruise after 10 mins has already been covered.

EDIT: Disregard - see above.

Departing KUNI an airport with no SIDs, how can one give "... climb via SID, except maintain 10,000, expect FL350 10 min after dep ..."? There is no SID to comply with!

Right, that's why such an instruction makes no sense and why such a clearance shouldn't be accepted until that's cleared up.

KLAS's TRALR departure has multiple crossing restrictions. "climb via SID" makes perfect sense here, and then an "except maintain" some new top altitude if other than what's published.

Yep. Similarly, the LOOP7 lends itself quite nicely to a "climb via SID, except maintain 5000" since there is a) an altitude restriction to abide by before reaching 5000, b) 5000 is the altitude to be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned as per SOP/LOA in that instance, c) the SID has no published top altitude.

January 1, 2015 at 01:54 PM

According to Wes the ZKC ATM. Whom is with the FAA, and spoke with them about this procedure. It comes down to one thing. If there is a published crossing restriction on the chart itself, (NOT IN THE TEXT SECTION) then "Climb Via" would be used. When determining if "Climb Via" should be used, the information in the text description is irrelevant.

If there is no published altitude restrictions on the (VISUAL) portion, standard phraseology would be used.

Mind you the text description is important when and when not to use the "Except Maintain" phrase. This is really something VATUSA should clear up and send a memo to each facility to ensure we are all on the same page.

January 1, 2015 at 03:51 PM

I'm not quite sure why a memo would be needed. Just like everything else, except for when latitude is needed for "VATSIMisms", follow the 7110. Nothing special here.

January 1, 2015 at 04:25 PM

Visiting a few Teamspeak servers around VATUSA along with this forum post. For whatever reason there seems to be much confusion over the subject. It may just be an ARTCC level training issue. Then again if it was as easy as following the 7110 we would not have had to contact the FAA for an explanation. Just my .02 cents.

Edited January 1, 2015 at 10:12 PM by Guest

January 1, 2015 at 06:32 PM

When the FAA first released the docomeents and videos regarding the "climb via SID" procedure, they were all explained using examples of SIDs that have altitude restrictions for waypoints or climb out procedures. However, listening to real world frequencies, you can notice that this phraseology is being used for those SIDs that do not have altitude or speed restrictions for waypoints, but do have an initial altitude.

Let me clarify using examples:

* LGA's GLDMN4 departure procedure (link) has altitude and speed restrictions for specific waypoints (e.g. you must cross KIWIE at an altitude above 2500 and a speed lower than 220 knots). Saying "climb via SID" will mean the pilot must comply with those.

* LGA's LGA4 departure procedure (link) does not have restrictions for waypoints. However, it does have restrictions for the climb out procedures (e.g. if you are departing runway 4 you must be above 600 before turning right to heading 055). Saying "climb via SID" will mean the pilot must comply with the restrictions specified for the climb out procedures.

* HPN's HPN4 departure procedure (link) has restrictions for the climbout procedure off of runway 16 and 34, but not for runway 11 and 29. If you are departing runway 16/34 then it'll be just like the LGA4 example above. If you are departing runway 11/29 and the controller says "climb via SID" what does that mean? There are no speed or altitude restrictions on the chart, right? WRONG! If you go to the back of the chart (link) you will see the it specifies an initial altitude of 3000 feet. If you are told to "climb via SID" it means you should maintain 3000 after departure.

I do not know of any departure procedure that does not have an initial altitude mentioned. Despite the fact that FAA's description of the "climb via SID" procedure was in the context of SIDs that have speed/altitude restrictions for waypoints or climb out procedures (like the GLDMN4 or LGA4 examples above), it never said you cannot use that phraseology for other SIDs. The real world practice seems to be that as long as there is any speed or altitude restriction on the SID (even if it is as simple as an initial altitude, like the HPN4 runway 11 example above), controllers use the climb via SID phraseology.

So if our purpose is to replicate real world procedures, it pretty much means we can use "climb via SID" with pretty much any SID departure. Unless, of course, when the SID doesn't even have an initial altitude mentioned, but I don't know any SID like that.

Clearly, saying "climb via SID" when no SID is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned is a controller error.

January 1, 2015 at 07:05 PM

I would like to extend Mr. Nanish's remarks by noting that the Climb via SID (nomenclature) was introduced in April, 2014, as part of 7110.65v, which believe is the most recent revision of the ATC handbook. That is why one is hearing the corresponding phraseology being used more commonly over time as it is being rolled out in VATSIM training by the various ARTCCs.

The explanation of the change is stated as

4-5-7. ALTITUDE INFORMATION
This change incorporates guidance on the use of

“climb via” (CV) phraseology for route transitions

and/or the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment of SID/RNAV SID

procedures incorporating speed and altitude

restrictions. The CV phraseology is incorporated

for departure operations, consistent with existing

“descend via” phaseology.

and you can find the revised order at

http://www.faa.gov/docomeentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7110.65V.pdf

John

January 1, 2015 at 07:14 PM

So if our purpose is to replicate real world procedures, it pretty much means we can use "climb via SID" with pretty much any SID departure. Unless, of course, when the SID doesn't even have an initial altitude mentioned, but I don't know any SID like that.

CHANL2
MUSEL7
SXC5
VTU5 (in East Ops config)
(Just about any SID from KLAX during East Ops)

I could go on with many, many more examples throughout ZLA, but there's probably no point.

And even for SIDs like ANAHM5 (Page 2) which have a "Maintain 2000" in the textual portion but no restrictions in the visual portion, I'm almost certain I've heard the real-world SNA Clearance Delivery use "maintain" rather than "climb via."

Then again, it's possible that some controllers from a different facility would have used "climb via" there instead. If so, it wouldn't be the first time (or the last, I'd wager) one facility's interpretation of the .65 varied from another's.

January 1, 2015 at 09:11 PM

Two aids that have been created to explain the subject:

http://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=507

http://nyartcc.org/wiki/index.php?title=Impact_of_7110.65V_on_Operations

The latter was prepared to guide controllers in ZNY. There are cases where the "Cleared via SID" phraseology is not used.

I wonder why the FAA would try to simplify something by creating something that has significant exceptions.....

John

January 1, 2015 at 10:08 PM

The latter was prepared to guide controllers in ZNY. There are cases where the "Cleared via SID" phraseology is not used.

Indeed. Speaking of the latter, it seems to suggest that just because a SID is an RNAV SID then the "climb via" phraseology applies. The "climb via" phraseology is completely agnostic as to whether the SID is RNAV or not; if an RNAV SID doesn't contain any published crossing restrictions (example: PEVEE2), then "climb via" doesn't apply.

January 1, 2015 at 10:09 PM

It really comes down to what is, and what is not a "Published Crossing Restriction". If it has a "Published Crossing Restrictions" it would be "Climb Via" if it does not it would be the standard phraseology. A "Top Altitude" is not a published crossing restriction.

January 3, 2015 at 07:46 PM

It really comes down to what is, and what is not a "Published Crossing Restriction". If it has a "Published Crossing Restrictions" it would be "Climb Via" if it does not it would be the standard phraseology. A "Top Altitude" is not a published crossing restriction.

Ok but then why does it say to use "climb via sid" with a top altitude?

7110.65V

4-3-2 e. 4. (a)

When the top altitude is included in the

SID route description, instruct aircraft to “climb via

SID.”

Also, any time a crossing restriction is mentioned, when there is not a top altitude, you use "climb via sid, except maintain."

7110.65V

4-3-2 e. 4. (b)

When a top altitude is not published on a

SID that contains published crossing restrictions, or

when it is necessary to issue an interim altitude

instruct the aircraft to “Climb via SID except (altitude

[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment/ change)”.

Remember, even if you don't think it makes much sense with the SID(s) in question, if all you say is "maintain (altitude)," you have DELETED any restrictions on that SID.

If there is a top altitude it's "climb via sid."

If there are altitude restrictions without a top altitude, it's "climb via sid, except maintain."

If there are altitude restrictions AND a top altitude, it's "climb via sid."

If, after the above aircraft departs and you want to give them a higher altitude but still comply with the SID restrictions it's "climb via sid, except maintain."

January 3, 2015 at 09:57 PM

If there are NO published crossing restrictions. Climb via will NOT be used.

4. Use one of the following when the SID contains published crossing restrictions:

(a) When the top altitude is included in the SID route description, instruct aircraft to “climb via SID.”

(b) When a top altitude is not published on a SID that contains published crossing restrictions, or when it is necessary to issue an interim altitude instruct the aircraft to “Climb via SID except (altitude [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment/ change)”.

The key phrase is "when the SID contains published crossing restrictions". Your post is not accurate because you are taking the rules out of context. Hope this helps.

January 4, 2015 at 03:31 AM

Can it sometimes be used?

7110.65V

4-3-3 d. 1.

Specify the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned altitude. The altitude

may be omitted and pilots instructed to “climb via

SID” when a top altitude is published in the SID route

description.

January 4, 2015 at 04:05 AM

This section is saying what to do when there is and when there is not a published "Top Altitude".

However it still falls back to 4-3-2, Departure Clearances which says "Use one of the following when the SID contains published crossing restrictions". Thus in a nutshell if the departure does NOT have published crossing restrictions then "Climb Via" would not be used.

January 4, 2015 at 06:10 PM

If a SID has published crossing altitudes and an altitude to maintain per the chart, it's "climb via SID".

If a SID has published crossing altitudes and no altitude to maintain per the chart, it's "climb via SID except maintain".

If a SID has published crossing altitudes and you want the aircraft to maintain a different altitude instead of what is published per the chart, it's "climb via SID except maintain".

If a SID has no published crossing altitudes but has a top altitude, it's "climb via SID".

If a SID has no published crossing altitudes and has no top altitude, it's "climb and maintain".

Hopefully this clears everything up.

http://cdn.nbaa.org/ops/cns/pbn/climb-via/NBAA-Pilot-Briefing-Climb-Via-Descend-Via-Speed-Adjustments-2.00-20140228.pdf

January 4, 2015 at 06:15 PM

If a SID has no published crossing altitudes but has a top altitude, it's "climb via SID".

According to 7110.65V 4-3-2(e)(4), "climb via" is only used when "when the SID contains published crossing restrictions." Why did you use "climb via" in this example?

January 4, 2015 at 06:25 PM

This is the reason I decided to chime in on the topic. VATUSA as a whole is VERY confused about the "Climb Via". The pilot briefing is not a good source and can lead to the confusion we are discussing. Maybe we should get all the TA's together along with VATUSA3 and hash this out as a unit to ensure we are all on the same page?

January 4, 2015 at 06:36 PM

If a SID has no published crossing altitudes but has a top altitude, it's "climb via SID".

According to 7110.65V 4-3-2(e)(4), "climb via" is only used when "when the SID contains published crossing restrictions." Why did you use "climb via" in this example?

One could argue that a published altitude in the chart is a published crossing restriction, which is what I think most facilities are using as their argument to give the "climb via". I've seen multiple PDC's that include "climb via" for basic radar departures with a published top altitude with no restrictions, ala IAD:

***DATE/TIME OF PDC RECEIPT: 03JAN 1801Z
**** PREDEPARTURE CLEARANCE ****

FLTS MORE THAN 2 HRS PAST SKED DEP TIME

MUST VERIFY PDC IS STILL VALID WITH ATC.

DAL859 DEPARTING KIAD TRANSPONDER 1355

SKED DEP TIME 1830 EQUIP MD88/Z

FILED FLT LEVEL 320

ROUTING

****************************************

-CLEARED AS FILED-

KIAD FLUKY DCA246 PAUKI

MOL DIRTY2 KATL

****************************************

CLEARED CPTAL8 DEP

.

CLIMB VIA SID

***DATE/TIME OF PDC RECEIPT: 03JAN 1050Z

FWIW, everyone around the country RW is confused as all hell with this phraseology. It's supposed to be clarified sometime this year.

January 4, 2015 at 06:36 PM

This is the reason I decided to chime in on the topic. VATUSA as a whole is VERY confused about the "Climb Via". The pilot briefing is not a good source and can lead to the confusion we are discussing. Maybe we should get all the TA's together along with VATUSA3 and hash this out as a unit to ensure we are all on the same page?

We could if everyone feels the need to.

January 4, 2015 at 06:44 PM

Based on the FAA's Climb Via/Descend Via/Speed Clearances FAQ, I would say that any SID with any type of altitude information would qualify whether that would be a restriction on the chart or a top altitude.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs470/pbn/media/rnav1_rnp1_rnav2/climb_descend_via_faq.pdf

January 4, 2015 at 06:50 PM

One could argue that a published altitude in the chart is a published crossing restriction, which is what I think most facilities are using as their argument to give the "climb via".

This would work if the 7110.65 said "Published Altitude" and not "Published Crossing Restriction". These are two completely different things. The PDC is not correct. Remember just because they are real world controllers does not mean they are correct.

My question is why is no one reading and applying what the 7110.65 says? Everyone keeps referencing 3rd party cheat sheets and such.

January 4, 2015 at 06:59 PM

Correct. But take a look at the link Ryan posted above: http://cdn.nbaa.org/ops/cns/pbn/climb-via/NBAA-Pilot-Briefing-Climb-Via-Descend-Via-Speed-Adjustments-2.00-20140228.pdf On page 17, it says "altitude restriction" not "crossing restriction".

This exactly what I tried to say in my post on earlier in this topic (page 1). The word-for-word interpretation of the rule as well as the original examples given by the FAA would only apply to "crossing restrictions". The state of practice right now is that RW controllers also say "climb via SID" when there is only an "altitude restriction". Other RW docomeents (like the one linked above) also further this confusion. Everyone is confused about it!

In the meantime, I'd just do what Ryan said above.

January 4, 2015 at 07:03 PM

One could argue that a published altitude in the chart is a published crossing restriction, which is what I think most facilities are using as their argument to give the "climb via".

This would work if the 7110.65 said "Published Altitude" and not "Published Crossing Restriction". These are two completely different things. The PDC is not correct. Remember just because they are real world controllers does not mean they are correct.

My question is why is no one reading and applying what the 7110.65 says? Everyone keeps referencing 3rd party cheat sheets and such.

Because local procedures can be supplemental and/or contrary to the 7110.65 as long as they're approved by the service area?

"Climb Via SID" On non-altitude restricted SIDs?

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