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IVAO model matching rule set removed from server


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We only get progress when people do unexpected things with what we have created, our wishes be damned. Again, we will agree to disagree on this.

 

You are saying that we ONLY get progress when people do unexpected things, and you are implying that those unexpected things conflict with our wishes. Do you not see any middle ground where progress can be made without going against someone's intentions for the things they produce?

 

Yeah, VATSIM has my permission to use the code if I abandon it.

 

How well is that working for XSB?

 

That is not a fair comparison.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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You are saying that we ONLY get progress when people do unexpected things

 

I'd venture that if you look back at innovation and discovery, the value of the discovery is proportional to how unexpected it is. Incremental discoveries lead to incremental improvement. We remember Kepler and Einstein for a reason.

 

you are implying that those unexpected things conflict with our wishes. Do you not see any middle ground where progress can be made without going against someone's intentions for the things they produce?

 

Sure, that middle ground exists. But there's two problems. First, let's [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume my earlier contention that the most revolutionary enhancements are the least predictable in advance. Second, the problem with our myopia is that we tend to define our wishes in very restrictive, rather than expansive terms. I don't think it's wrong or limiting for you to restrict your software from being used to cause real, tangible harm to others. It's not wrong to say someone else can't rebundle your software and sell it.

 

But we don't place minimal restrictions on things. We place the broadest, widest restrictions because we are afraid of the unknown and what nefarious things people might come up with. We see the world through the lens of the present, rather than the unpredictability of the future and we restrict things based on the limits of our present view.

 

In this thread, you identified a problem - we don't have a good source for multi-player model sets. There's a plethora of freeware models out there but the restrictions and licenses limit the community in ways that I suspect the authors never envisioned, but entropy and the p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]age of time makes it impossible to contact those individuals.

 

Let me ask you a question - let's say you had the ability to write a charter for your children in terms of their future. People do that all the time - it's an inheritance or a trust. Let's say you had $5 million to give to your children in a trust for their well-being, and you and your spouse would not be around a year from now to control it or adjust to circomestances. How would you word the conditions and terms? You certainly have opinions and wishes for them. You are a responsible individual and want hard-earned [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ets to be prudently used. Yet I also suspect that you are forward-thinking enough to recognize that the world they will inhabit is radically different from today's and you would want to give them the flexibility to go in directions not envisioned today.

 

How would you structure such an arrangement? I suspect you would put some hard limits around the things that really mattered to you, while erring on the side of flexibility in most others. Yet in software we tend to put limits on everything and close the doors to a lot of productive uses because we couldn't envision them or consider them a good idea at the time.

 

That is not a fair comparison.

 

I'll confess that I haven't been particularly involved over the past two years, but what errors am I making here?

 

XSB isn't open source. It's in a state where when a developer moves on, VATSIM has the ability to move things over to someone who steps up and is willing and capable to taking things over. When Ben Supnik got involved with Laminar, Wade took over for a while. It looks like XSB development has stopped because of Wade's commitments, but I don't believe there is any legal or practical impediment to someone taking over development if they wanted to. Just like with vPilot.

 

So why hasn't anyone?

 

Flightsim development in general (not just VATSIM) is sick. Go browse around Stack Overflow on any topic of your choice and you'll be overwhelmed at the number of people happily sharing code and ideas. Go look at GitHub and see how much code is being released into the open each and every day. The biggest problems that most code has is a lack of interest or contribution.

 

Go look at the technical discussion topics on these forums. First, they're hidden, but second as you browse through them you find all sorts of illusions to mailing lists, unmentioned sites and whatnot. I went through all the nonsense to get through the NDA and even then I suspect I have accessed a quarter of what is out there. Either there are a ton of discussions going on in the background, or there's nothing. I am unsure which is more concerning.

 

My point is that tomorrow's vPilot developer may be someone browsing through the developer forums. It may be someone scratching an itch for a particular feature that submits an unsolicited patch. That's how it works in the real world. Except in VATSIM, where we've completely cut off our developer pipeline. We make it hard to develop. We don't collaborate openly. We don't have a way for people to cut their teeth helping others. Then, after a few years, we wonder why the developer pipeline has dried up. Why would any sane developer under 40 want to work in an environment completely alien to the rest of the world?

 

Do you think that the arrangements for vPilot are any better than XSB? If you move on, VATSIM may get one developer after you. XSB did. What then? Again, if I'm missing some important fact or arrangement that you made after seeing what happened to XSB, please let me know.

 

The point is, we don't have the ability to shape destiny after we're gone. Intelligent Design is a myth. All we have is the ability to throw things open and let evolution take its course. It's not guaranteed to succeed, of course, but it's better than the alternatives.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts.

... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority.

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Ahh, yeah, I think I misunderstood the implication of your comparison between vPilot and XSB. You're saying that for vPilot to truly be able to survive my departure, it needs to be open source. I can agree with that, at least on the academic or abstract level. And if VATSIM ever makes the major philosophical shift towards embracing open source, I doubt my enthusiasm for writing client code would diminish one bit.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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  • 2 weeks later...
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  • Board of Governors

Funny, Ernesto, I almost replied earlier, but took his rant as one that should have been directed at the IVAO folks, but for some inexplicable reason he ranted here instead of there. I could never imagine that someone would yell like that at VATSIM folks on the VATSIM forums when it's the IVAO people that published that restriction.... I almost suggested he should be ensuring he posted that rant on the IVAO forums, not here.

Don Desfosse
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I'm yelling at IVAO people not at Vatsim people. I don't care about the bold letters saying it's just for IVAO network, I'm just saying it's selfish not sharing those models with people that want to fly in Vatsim network. I fly in both but now I must download another models for Vatsim just because of IVAO selfish policy.

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I'm yelling at IVAO people not at Vatsim people. I don't care about the bold letters saying it's just for IVAO network, I'm just saying it's selfish not sharing those models with people that want to fly in Vatsim network. I fly in both but now I must download another models for Vatsim just because of IVAO selfish policy.

 

Why is it selfish? People put in a ton of hours developing the models, working on their network and they want people to use the models THEY created for that network.

 

How is that selfish?

 

Why don't you put in countless hours on making models for VATSIM and us then? Once you do and you find them being used over at IVAO, tell us how you feel.

Thank you,

Lance W.

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Why don't you put in countless hours on making models for VATSIM and us then? Once you do and you find them being used over at IVAO, tell us how you feel.

 

If it's anything other than "I'm glad people find what I do of value and I'm flattered", then you need to put your big boy panties on.

 

I've never seen a more parochial, restrictive part of the technology scene than flight simulation. There's licenses, restrictions and efforts to ensure that no one does anything different from the author's wishes (even if, like here, their wishes are completely unenforceable). Payware leads you down the road of different "add-on managers", anti-piracy wrappers and needing to revalidate when you swap your video card or change your overclock. If you get support, you need to first go out of your way to prove you're not a thief and then maybe if you genuflect enough they might help you, so long as you don't have the temerity to ask for a road map or future plans.

 

All it does is make this world smaller. We've had the largest, most explosive growth in online access in the past ten years. We've literally had BILLIONS of people start engaging online, and the hardware requirements to engage on this platform have never been cheaper. Yet we haven't grown one bit since 2009.

 

I've been pulling down a servinfo feed every 3 minutes for the last 6 years, and logging it into a database. In any given month, we have around 13,000 CIDs that log into the network for at least 20 minutes at a time. There's around 600 or so C1-C3s who do the same (which is also static), and 1120 or so S1-S3s, down from around 1350 per month.

 

At some point we have to start thinking more about how do we make this hobby have that same level of enjoyment and accessibility and progress that it used to have and actually starts growing again. Right now it's getting bogged down by restrictions and the vibrancy is elsewhere. I'm not sure whether our motto should be "you can't do that here" or "it's not supposed to be fun, it's realistic". Then again there's always the old standby "if you don't like it, leave!".

 

And we wonder why everything stagnates. Just because IVAO has an awfully controlling attitude doesn't mean we need to endorse or compound it.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts.

... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority.

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Why don't you put in countless hours on making models for VATSIM and us then? Once you do and you find them being used over at IVAO, tell us how you feel.

 

If it's anything other than "I'm glad people find what I do of value and I'm flattered", then you need to put your big boy panties on.

 

I guess you are talking to me? Anyway... If I put countless hours into a project I damn well will dictate how and where it can be used. With that said, if I worked on models and fully intended for them to be used for free anywhere and everywhere then yes - - go for it. If I developed them for a very specific use and/or network and found you using it elsewhere - - well then yes, I'd have a problem with you.

 

Sorry, but this whole "gimme gimme gimme" attitude of folks is a bit tiresome.

 

Guess, i'll continue wearing my diapers.

Thank you,

Lance W.

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Anyway... If I put countless hours into a project I damn well will dictate how and where it can be used.

 

Let me know how well that works with children and spouses.

 

I may be missing some unique facet of flight simulation. All I've seen as a husband, father, manager, businessman, colleague and a variety of other roles is that one's control is illusory. If you want to succeed and make a difference you have to be flexible and humble, because the alternative is just that you're irrelevant. IVAO's threat isn't that people use their models on VATSIM or offline (oh, the humanity!). The biggest threat to payware authors isn't that a few broke teenagers fly a plane they wouldn't have ever bought. It's that increasingly, users walk away from the platform. You can't control those who opt out.

 

Sorry, but this whole "gimme gimme gimme" attitude of folks is a bit tiresome.

 

I don't understand this. It's not like it has a tangible effect on you. Someone can have a better experience at no expense to anyone else - how is that a bad thing? Why would that bother you?

 

I put a fair bit of work into the software infrastructure for a few VAs. There are more than a few individuals who have downloaded a great deal without contributing anything back. I expect that; it's par for the course. Even if I had 17 leaches, two break-evens and one good long-term contributor I'd consider that a net win; I have suffered no significant costs (since I don't hit my bandwidth caps my marginal costs are zero) and someone has gotten a better experience.

 

I understand if one's work is being downloaded and it causes meaningful financial harm. I understand if it's being used in a way to cause meaningful, tangible harm to other individuals. I understand if a content creator is being denied accreditation for their work. But beyond that?

 

Why do we cling to this shrinking pie when the world around us gets so much bigger?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts.

... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority.

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  • 3 months later...

The fact that vPilot can't publish the VMR file doesn't mean we can't use the already downloaded VMR right?.

 

 

 

If it's anything other than "I'm glad people find what I do of value and I'm flattered", then you need to put your big boy panties on.

 

I've never seen a more parochial, restrictive part of the technology scene than flight simulation. There's licenses, restrictions and efforts to ensure that no one does anything different from the author's wishes (even if, like here, their wishes are completely unenforceable). Payware leads you down the road of different "add-on managers", anti-piracy wrappers and needing to revalidate when you swap your video card or change your overclock. If you get support, you need to first go out of your way to prove you're not a thief and then maybe if you genuflect enough they might help you, so long as you don't have the temerity to ask for a road map or future plans.

 

(...)

 

I agree 100%. VATSIM is slowly decaying, online virtual communities too, and nobody cares.

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Please clarify to me...

 

If VATSIM is way better than IVAO, why do you need to use illegally their software? Why don't VATSIM develop proprietary software and model distribution?

 

Because, for what I read before, they got permission from model's authors to use only at IVAO. So if someone use a model a VATSIM (that has only permission to IVAO network), it is piracy.

C3 Senior Controller

 

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why do you need to use illegally their software?

 

Who said we "need" to use IVAO's software??

 

Tons of posts at this forum, and tons of videos at YouTube.

 

But I reinforce my original question: Why not VATSIM develop its own AI Aircraft library?

 

I know this must be a staff answer, but if VATSIM is too big as everyone posted here, it makes no sense to use other network software and hard work; the same way you didn't like to know there is someone using your own hard work.

 

I know that a standard library will help the integration with vPilot, and help users: if is easy for them to get and install things, they won't even learn about other network. And it shows some respect to new users, since they will get all they need - to fly at VATSIM - at VATSIM itself.

 

Or do you think I am wrong? Or do you think VATSIM users still must/need to use other network software?

C3 Senior Controller

 

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Fernando, I hope, though am not certain based on your comments, that you realize that any reference to the IVAO MTL model matching rules has already been removed in respect to the IVAO licensing structure. You seem to be attacking VATSIM's use of the IVAO MTL, but VATSIM does not use the MTL. Ross currently does not support the use of the IVAO MTL, much like he does not support the illegal use of his code/software.

 

You are correct, though, that it would be wonderful for VATSIM to develop a similar wonderful AI library. Indeed, our VATSIM President, Kyle Ramsey, has that on his list of important goals for VATSIM. I have seen some correspondence and spoken directly with Kyle about that project. I do hope it becomes a formally commissioned project soon.

Don Desfosse
Vice President, Membership

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Who said we "need" to use IVAO's software??

 

Tons of posts at this forum, and tons of videos at YouTube.

 

Hmmm ... I don't recall anyone saying that you NEED to use IVAO's MTL. If they did, they were 100% wrong. If you would kindly link me to these tons of posts, I will do my best to correct them.

 

Perhaps it's a language barrier ... maybe you are confusing the recommendation some have made to use IVAO's MTL with an actual requirement. It is absolutely NOT required to use IVAO's model set ... in fact I have taken steps to discourage it because IVAO doesn't want their model set used on networks other than IVAO. That's what this thread is all about.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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should also be noted VATSIM is not responsible for what people endorse in their youtube videos. if they are giving you the impression of some requirement, then as Ross mentioned, they are completely wrong.

 

by the way, there is currently a project for an AI collection, this is part of an upcoming new VATSIM client (Swift).

 

other then that, the clients have actually had their own model sets since the beginning with the Squawkbox CSL models and the FSINN VIP models, just saying...

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Gentlemen, please. I am not attacking anyone. I just want to learn.

 

First, if users do it, it is because someone told them how to do. But I am not here to start a hot discussion, I ask you please to clarify my questions, I just want to understand.

 

1. Have you mailed the users saying them to not use the models and delete the current IVAO MTL?

(just post it at forum won't solve, since just a little amount of users really read forum, and not even all sections)

 

2. Why in 14 VATSIM years (since the network exist since July 2001) still don't have its own AI model library?

 

3. If VATSIM users want to use IVAO MTL, why don't you mail them (IVAO) to do cooperative work?

 

4. Why you took so long to remove the rule set?

C3 Senior Controller

 

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Not any kind of official reply, because I wasn't directly involved, but just from the viewpoint of a member of the community:

 

1. No. Members, at least initially, found out about the software here on the forum, and the forum is where VATSIM communicates. If some people don't check the forums, that's their loss; many people do. Also, not smart to try to send out tens of thousands of emails. Finally, VATSIM doesn't track who uses what client.

2. Good question. In my opinion, this is one of VATSIM's top 3 needs.

3. IVAO was uncooperative.

4. When IVAO was uncooperative, it was taken down immediately.

Don Desfosse
Vice President, Membership

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First, if users do it, it is because someone told them how to do.

 

As the pilot client author, I cannot control what people do on the internet. For example, I cannot prevent them from making a youtube video or a forum post describing how to install the IVAO MTL and use it on VATSIM. (And that can be done with ANY pilot client, not just vPilot, by the way.)

 

1. Have you mailed the users saying them to not use the models and delete the current IVAO MTL?

 

How do you see that as my job, or the job of anyone on VATSIM? It's up to IVAO to enforce their own policies, not me, not VATSIM.

 

Why aren't you asking me to email anyone that pirates PMDG's add-on aircraft and tell them to remove the PMDG software from their computer?

 

2. Why in 14 VATSIM years (since the network exist since July 2001) still don't have its own AI model library?

 

That's a question for the VATSIM staff. Everyone agrees that it would be great if VATSIM had an official model set. I haven't done it myself since I simply don't have the time to identify, locate, and contact hundreds of model authors seeking permission to distribute their software. Perhaps you don't understand how much effort that would actually take. Hopefully someone will eventually have the time and motivation to coordinate such an effort, but I sadly do not.

 

3. If VATSIM users want to use IVAO MTL, why don't you mail them (IVAO) to do cooperative work?

 

They've been quite clear about their unwillingness to cooperate.

 

4. Why you took so long to remove the rule set?

 

Somehow I doubt any answer will satisfy you here, so I'm not going to bother. The first post in this thread tells you all you need to know.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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