IVAO model matching rule set removed from server

[Evan Reiter]

Quick note.

 

I've been working on trying to contact modelers from the original World of AI package (see here). After getting nowhere with WOAI, I went directly to over 200 modelers and painters. I've had mixed success, but enough to be able to put together a starting package.

 

There is one key name, Craig Ritchie, who developed the majority of the airliner models in the WOAI packages. With his permission, I could provide a quite reasonable model matching package for VATSIM. However, without being able to get in touch, the package won't be much as his work dominated the original WOAI models. I believe those same models are used in IVAO's MTL.

 

All this to say that the effort required to undertake this project is indeed m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ive, but it's not impossible. I, working alone, have got 30% of the way there. One email with permissions from Craig would get us to 50%. The other 50% would be the technological effort to program the functionality required to actually install everything into the many simulators we support. This is something I believe Ross has already volunteered to do, once we have a set of models and liveries and the corresponding permission to use them.

 

With the recent issues being experienced by those trying the WOAI Downloader and Installer (Downloader issues being on AVSIM's end, Installer issues being on WOAI's), the project is all the more relevant. I do hope VATSIM takes up the cause, and -- if they do -- I'd be happy to share the work I've been doing.

[Ross Carlson]

Gentlemen, calm down, I was just trying to understand.

 

If you ask pointed questions, you should not be surprised when you get pointed answers...

[Fernando Hippolyto 810952]

Gentlemen, calm down, I was just trying to understand.

 

If you ask pointed questions, you should not be surprised when you get pointed answers...

 

I am asking about ideas and softwares, not pointing fingers to specific people. If you want, I can do really hard questions; but, again, I am here to discuss ideas, not to attack people.

[Ross Carlson]

I am asking about ideas and softwares, not pointing fingers to specific people. If you want, I can do really hard questions; but, again, I am here to discuss ideas, not to attack people.

 

I have not accused you of pointing fingers or attacking anyone. Maybe it's you that needs to calm down?

 

I have answered your questions, and maybe now you can answer mine. I'd still like to know why you think it is my job (or VATSIM's job) to enforce IVAO's policies.

[Fernando Hippolyto 810952]

I am asking about ideas and softwares, not pointing fingers to specific people. If you want, I can do really hard questions; but, again, I am here to discuss ideas, not to attack people.

 

I have not accused you of pointing fingers or attacking anyone. Maybe it's you that needs to calm down?

 

I have answered your questions, and maybe now you can answer mine. I'd still like to know why you think it is my job (or VATSIM's job) to enforce IVAO's policies.

 

 

Ross, it is not IVAO's policies, it is VATSIM's policies.

 

See if you agree with me: If you - software developer - create a topic saying that a specific procedure was removed - and at same topic you say that if I point any topic which stimulates to use IVAO MTL, you say that you will do your best to correct them...

 

...so it is not a IVAO policy, it is a VATSIM policy to abandon the use of IVAO tools.

 

And I am not saying it is your job to do this. Someone at VATSIM staff can send a NOTAM to members, saying that VATSIM won't support this specific model matching anymore, and recommending VATSIM pilots to use other tools; and maybe even inviting members who works with 3D to help the network.

 

Am I wrong?

[Ross Carlson]

Ross, it is not IVAO's policies, it is VATSIM's policies.

 

You asked:

 

"Have you mailed the users saying them to not use the models and delete the current IVAO MTL?"

 

That is asking me (or VATSIM) to enforce IVAO policy.

 

See if you agree with me: If you - software developer - create a topic saying that a specific procedure was removed - and at same topic you say that if I point any topic which stimulates to use IVAO MTL, you say that you will do your best to correct them...

 

You are referring to when I said that I would correct anyone that says that you NEED to use IVAO's model set when using vPilot. You are confusing two different things.

 

And I am not saying it is your job to do this. Someone at VATSIM staff can send a NOTAM to members, saying that VATSIM won't support this specific model matching anymore, and recommending VATSIM pilots to use other tools; and maybe even inviting members who works with 3D to help the network.

 

I think you're suggesting that VATSIM could send out a NOTAM which would contain the same information I posted here in this thread, in order to reach a larger audience. VATSIM could certainly do that if it wanted to. However, I don't know why VATSIM would get involved. My decision to remove the IVAO model matching rule set was a decision that I made personally as the author of vPilot. It was not a choice made by VATSIM and it certainly has nothing to do with VATSIM policy.

 

Also, this is a VERY different suggestion than what you originally posted, which was to email users asking them to remove the IVAO models.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

think we have a little bit of a language barrier going, least the impression im getting

 

or just an attempt to make false accusations? (you are part of the MTL team at IVAO arent you?)

[Fernando Hippolyto 810952]

think we have a little bit of a language barrier going, least the impression im getting

 

or just an attempt to make false accusations? (you are part of the MTL team at IVAO arent you?)

 

Ernesto, hi.

 

Yes, I am at MTL team; since the beginning of this year. But I did not came here to talk about or advertise other network.

 

No, I did no false accusations. Check my posts, I just asked questions.

 

What I mean is: I can say bunch of things, but no. Instead of it, I came here to understand things. But it looks that you are not comfortably with my questions, so I won't post here anymore.

 

Regards.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

then again ill go with the language barrier [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption. your questions shouldve been worded as questions, but as you say, go read your posts again and youll see the error

 

your first post was

If VATSIM is way better than IVAO, why do you need to use illegally their software?

 

thats not a question and when asked what gave you the impression, you seem to be under the belief that VATSIM can control what other people do and think.

 

also remember there are cultural differences, how someone approaches others as you did, doesnt necessarily come off well in other cultures.

 

What you seem to not understand is that one, as the VP of VATSIM himself mentioned pages ago, VATSIM does not now, nor has it ever, endorsed the usage of any model set, two, the vPilot developer himself decided not to continue to let his clients user base undermine IVAO's usage policies regarding MTL, hence it was removed. its not a VATSIM policy, its a decision the developer of the client made. instead of thanking for supporting your groups work by not supporting those that choose to misuse it, you choose to come here and basically blame the network for your own lack of making sure your users use your work properly. thats not VASTSIM's job, its yours.

Edited November 19, 2015 at 12:58 AM by Guest

[Josh Glottmann]

But it looks that you are not comfortably with my questions, so I won't post here anymore.

I'm sorry, but it looks like you are not comfortable with our answers.

 

As you are with the MTL Team, if you would like to make a PSA to our pilots, I wish you luck.

It's not our (VATSIM, nor Ross') responsibility to inform people of this. Daily, I see people redirected to the post he made whenever a question is brought up about "How do I install the IVAO MTL" and leading them frequently to not using it.

An uncalled for effort is already being made by our community to stray away from using the IVAO MTL.

[Richard Walsh]

You should have mentioned you were on the MTL team. That way your motives would have been transparent. Instead you come here looking to get a specific answer and keep poking until you do. Ross removed the IVAO modelset rules 5 months ago. Move on. More importantly go back to IVAO. You are a member of VATSIM but not a active member. Your sole purpose of this visit was to complain about something that is 5 months old.

[Ross Carlson]

Fernando, now that we have a better idea of your true motives, and in case you still have the misconception that anyone is telling vPilot users that they need the IVAO MTL, I would like to make sure that you understand that the IVAO model set was never distributed by me or by any official VATSIM source, and I never said that the IVAO model set was required in order to use vPilot. Nobody in any official VATSIM staff position ever said so either, that I'm aware of.

 

So there was no violation of the IVAO MTL terms of use, by me, or by anyone from VATSIM staff acting in any official capacity.

 

Obviously, some VATSIM users violated the IVAO MTL terms of use by using the IVAO model set with vPilot, but that is not something that I can control, and that is not something that VATSIM staff can control. It is IVAO's responsibility to enforce their own policies. The best I can do is discourage users from violating the IVAO MTL terms of use, which is exactly what I did by removing the vPilot model matching rule set that referenced IVAO models. Again, this was a personal decision because I didn't want to encourage users to act against IVAO's wishes. This decision had nothing to do with VATSIM policy, because VATSIM was not even involved. You may not realize that VATSIM does not provide pilot client software. Pilot clients like vPilot are provided by users, not by the VATSIM organization.

 

I hope that clears it up in case you actually think that VATSIM users need to use the IVAO model set with vPilot, because that is 100% not true.

[Kirk Christie]

It seems that a number of members that upload vidoes to you tube have had a copyright claim made against them from IVAO, if a person is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed to be using MTL in their vidoes, while on the vatsim network.

[Jan Walters 1338746]

It seems that a number of members that upload vidoes to you tube have had a copyright claim made against them from IVAO, if a person is [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed to be using MTL in their vidoes, while on the vatsim network.

It's funny that I just saw some of those copyright blocks on youtube. I remember thinking, what a sad bunch over at IVAO.

 

Point is that i had some problems with WOAI liveries showing on Vatsim and Vpilot gave me many error messages. Took me a few hours but finally discovered a very easy way to get the Model Matching Rules with VMR generator.

 

It took me all but 5 minutes to get it to work.

 

Is there any reason we need MTL?

[Ross Carlson]

Is there any reason we need MTL?

 

Nope, none at all.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Because youtube can control what users show in their videos as far as models? Lol

 

Once they finish investigating the claims theyll be shaking their heads as well.

 

Music is one thing. Displaying models where you have a heck of a hard time proving its yours is another, especially considering they are not the true copyright holders of all those models, just the packaging.

 

Its a start, but wrong direction. Start by securing the package

[Andy Ford 1203533]

Because youtube can control what users show in their videos as far as models? Lol

 

Once they finish investigating the claims theyll be shaking their heads as well.

 

Music is one thing. Displaying models where you have a heck of a hard time proving its yours is another, especially considering they are not the true copyright holders of all those models, just the packaging.

 

Its a start, but wrong direction. Start by securing the package

 

A number of content creators on YouTube have openly admitted to using the MTL however, so it doesn't sound like IVAO will have a hard time pursuing their claims.

[Brian Pryor 810138]

Because youtube can control what users show in their videos as far as models? Lol

 

Once they finish investigating the claims theyll be shaking their heads as well.

 

Music is one thing. Displaying models where you have a heck of a hard time proving its yours is another, especially considering they are not the true copyright holders of all those models, just the packaging.

 

Its a start, but wrong direction. Start by securing the package

 

A number of content creators on YouTube have openly admitted to using the MTL however, so it doesn't sound like IVAO will have a hard time pursuing their claims.

 

File a DMCA counter claim, the ball then goes into IVAO's court to get a court injunction to get the content removed, something I doubt they would pursue as it's hard to justify actual damages for a pack of other peoples work distributed on a free to use network.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

Dont think you understand how copyright works. Youtube doesnt control what people use regardless of what the user says hes using. Their copyright is not extended to display, like say you recording a movie on your phone and posting it which is infringment. Or displaying copyrighted images in a video without consent (thats why those often get blurred btw in various videos whether on the news or others) IVAO isnt even the creator of some/many of the models either. They collected them with permission. The copyright they have is basically for the wrapping and whatever they actually created (repaints, etc).

 

I wish them luck lol

 

Because youtube can control what users show in their videos as far as models? Lol

 

Once they finish investigating the claims theyll be shaking their heads as well.

 

Music is one thing. Displaying models where you have a heck of a hard time proving its yours is another, especially considering they are not the true copyright holders of all those models, just the packaging.

 

Its a start, but wrong direction. Start by securing the package

 

A number of content creators on YouTube have openly admitted to using the MTL however, so it doesn't sound like IVAO will have a hard time pursuing their claims.

[Andy Ford 1203533]

Yeah I get that Ernesto, what I was aiming at is that if IVAO were to pursue this further, surely the content creators effectively admitting it would count against them?

 

That said, I saw on Reddit last night that an announcement regarding the situation was made on IVAO's side of the proverbial fence. I'm not gonna be the one to copy it here, however.

[Jiri Kocman 1325671]

Fernando, now that we have a better idea of your true motives, and in case you still have the misconception that anyone is telling vPilot users that they need the IVAO MTL, I would like to make sure that you understand that the IVAO model set was never distributed by me or by any official VATSIM source, and I never said that the IVAO model set was required in order to use vPilot. Nobody in any official VATSIM staff position ever said so either, that I'm aware of.

 

So there was no violation of the IVAO MTL terms of use, by me, or by anyone from VATSIM staff acting in any official capacity.

 

I dissagree with it.

 

At Czech division VATSIM forum is new published guide how to instal IVAO MTL into vPilot. This guide is provided by Czech division training director and he recommend this solution and helping pilots to install it if they have some problem...

 

He and member of Czech IT support says that is no problem...

 

I think that both are official VATSIM staff.

[Ross Carlson]

Fernando, now that we have a better idea of your true motives, and in case you still have the misconception that anyone is telling vPilot users that they need the IVAO MTL, I would like to make sure that you understand that the IVAO model set was never distributed by me or by any official VATSIM source, and I never said that the IVAO model set was required in order to use vPilot. Nobody in any official VATSIM staff position ever said so either, that I'm aware of.

 

So there was no violation of the IVAO MTL terms of use, by me, or by anyone from VATSIM staff acting in any official capacity.

 

I dissagree with it.

 

At Czech division VATSIM forum is new published guide how to instal IVAO MTL into vPilot. This guide is provided by Czech division training director and he recommend this solution and helping pilots to install it if they have some problem...

 

He and member of Czech IT support says that is no problem...

 

I think that both are official VATSIM staff.

 

The official VATSIM staff list can be found here:

 

https://www.vatsim.net/staff

 

That is beside the point anyway. I said that neither I nor anyone from the VATSIM staff (that I'm aware of) distributed the IVAO MTL or stated that it was required in order to use vPilot.

 

If the Czech division forum post gives instructions on using IVAO MTL with vPilot, that is not the same thing as saying it is required.

 

I have not read the post, so if they are in fact saying that IVAO MTL is required in order to use vPilot, they are wrong. (And again, they are not part of the VATSIM staff.)

[Jiri Kocman 1325671]

The official VATSIM staff list can be found here:

 

https://www.vatsim.net/staff

 

That is beside the point anyway. I said that neither I nor anyone from the VATSIM staff (that I'm aware of) distributed the IVAO MTL or stated that it was required in order to use vPilot.

 

If the Czech division forum post gives instructions on using IVAO MTL with vPilot, that is not the same thing as saying it is required.

 

I have not read the post, so if they are in fact saying that IVAO MTL is required in order to use vPilot, they are wrong. (And again, they are not part of the VATSIM staff.)

 

 

I react mostly to your "So there was no violation of the IVAO MTL terms of use, by me, or by anyone from VATSIM staff acting in any official capacity."

 

I consider divisional staff to be representative of VATSIM - VATSIM staff. They do not say that IVAO MTL is required for vPilot, but recommend it as good solution and providing help with installing it for use with vPilot.

 

Division training director pointing to a URL which is Czech file sharing server known as "warez server" and instruct to search term: "IVAO MTL" which find some full IVAO MTL archive.

 

So if I understand this casue corretly he recomend piracy.

Edited December 4, 2015 at 09:43 AM by Guest

[Richard Walsh]

The official VATSIM staff list can be found here:

 

https://www.vatsim.net/staff

 

That is beside the point anyway. I said that neither I nor anyone from the VATSIM staff (that I'm aware of) distributed the IVAO MTL or stated that it was required in order to use vPilot.

 

If the Czech division forum post gives instructions on using IVAO MTL with vPilot, that is not the same thing as saying it is required.

 

I have not read the post, so if they are in fact saying that IVAO MTL is required in order to use vPilot, they are wrong. (And again, they are not part of the VATSIM staff.)

 

 

I react mostly to your "So there was no violation of the IVAO MTL terms of use, by me, or by anyone from VATSIM staff acting in any official capacity."

 

I consider divisional staff to be representative of VATSIM - VATSIM staff. They do not say that IVAO MTL is required for vPilot, but recommend it as good solution and providing help with installing it for use with vPilot.

 

Division training director pointing to a URL which is Czech file sharing server known as "warez server" and instruct to search term: "IVAO MTL" which find some full IVAO MTL archive.

 

So if I understand this casue corretly he recomend piracy.

If you are so concerned you should bring it to a VATSIM official by reporting the post.

[Ross Carlson]

I react mostly to your "So there was no violation of the IVAO MTL terms of use, by me, or by anyone from VATSIM staff acting in any official capacity."

 

I consider divisional staff to be representative of VATSIM - VATSIM staff. They do not say that IVAO MTL is required for vPilot, but recommend it as good solution and providing help with installing it for use with vPilot.

 

Division training director pointing to a URL which is Czech file sharing server known as "warez server" and instruct to search term: "IVAO MTL" which find some full IVAO MTL archive.

 

So if I understand this casue corretly he recomend piracy.

 

Divisional staff is not part of VATSIM staff, as evidenced by their absence on the VATSIM staff web page.

 

And even if they were part of VATSIM staff, they did not actually distribute the software.

 

We're splitting hairs here, but you challenged my statements, and I'm telling you why I stand by them. That being said, I do not condone what the Czech divisional staff is doing. (Obviously, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.)