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New thread about realism vs. fun


Jeff Thomas
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STEVE:

 

NONE OF MY POSTS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY PROBLEM I'VE HAD IN THE PAST WITH ANYONE IN VATSIM OR ANYTHING THAT HAPPENNED TO ME. Is that clearer? I will only address the topic of this discussion and that's it. Any comments made about whether I'm with the right ARTCC or whether I did or did not do enough, or whether I quit are irrelevant.

 

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(notice these are separated, meaning they are not to be read as one statement but as seperate points addressing different issues.)

 

Read all my posts to understand what the one you reaad meant. It was a direct response to someone else.

 

That sentence was to Gary because I felt like he thought that I wanted to make the ATC system more restrictive and his comments ONLY addressed the subject matter of the most recent post...leading me to believe he didn't read all of my posts but only the one in which I responded to Paul.

 

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(notice these are separated, meaning they are not to be read as one statement.)

 

RESEARCH AND HOW TO ACHIEVE A BETTER BALANCE OF FUN AND REALISM IN VATSIM ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON. You suggesting I research 22 centers is like me telling you to read all the FAR's before you fly or control online. You also must not realize there is a restrictive period of 90 days for ARTCC transfers that has been enforced upon me before. Until you spend your free time researching 22 centers & waiting 90 days to transfer don't suggest it to me. And if you did spend the time, it still has nothing to do with this discussion. Post a new topic "New Controllers who think their being miss treated who don't put forth enough effort" somewhere else.

 

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(notice these are separated, meaning they are not to be read as one statement.)

 

The 3 quotes you "linked together" have no relation to each other in context so stop trying to read them that way. You're trying to read what you want to hear instead of reading what I said.

 

You're right about things not changing if the training staff quality sucks but that's an issue that VATUSA should make it's priority.

 

---->VATUSA picks the ARTCC leadership, and they should make it their number 1 priority to choose leadership that has a firm grasp on the purpose of VATUSA and VATSIM and how to implement it, or replace the lack of thereof ASAP. That is the concise meaning of that quote. Nowhere in that statement did I say I want VATUSA to force anything on any ARTCCs as you stated. I agreed with Paul's statement, which you won't understand if you don't refer to Paul's post.

 

have VATUSA take your system of certifications (or any other system) and force it upon all ARTCCs could cause a collapse of the entire system.

 

 

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(notice these are separated, meaning they are not to be read as one statement.)

 

 

hence, if they make the wrong choices in ARTCC leadership the result is:

For a restriction system to be successful, it needs an active training staff. This lies with the TA of a facility to keep an active training staff for the type of program that he and his ATM wish to maintain. The training staff in relation to a restriction system is directly proportional. As the restriction system grows in complexity, the training staff activity and performance must go up as well. If the training staff performance is dropping, the restriction systems must be adjusted appropriately.

 

 

*************************************************************

 

 

GARY: I understand your logic perfectly and agree with all your points except for the one about how you [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume I handled the situation.

I would agree with you if this was the business world, but this is my hobby. I own and operate a business and at the time I joined VATSIM I was also in school. I don't have time to spend during my hobby hours researching 22 ARTCC's that all present themselves the same way on the surface. Not only is that not feasible, but it's also not a smart way to spend your relax and wind down time. I do research and crunch info to make decisions all day...why do it afterhours??

 

Paul seems to have a solid grasp on what I'm saying.

 

It goes beyond that. In the "ideal" VATSIM, every ARTCC/FIR would be able to provide a positive environment to all controllers, from the hobbyist who wants to have fun, to the real world controller who for some crazy reason, wants to do this stuff in his off hours.

 

As ATM at Albuquerque, I strive to bring that balance to my facility. I hope management at all facilites and above are striving towards this same goal.

 

Exactly. Some days I want to be the real controller and some days I want to have fun, but I hate those days when I don't have a choice.

Regards,

JX

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With respect, but how many different ARTCCs should he have tried? I've never been interested in controlling, but if I got similar negative experiences over three different ARTCCs it would be reasonable to conclude that they were all like that. By means of analagy, if you got food poisoning at three different McDonalds, would you try the remaning 14,997 North American locations before drawing your conclusions?

 

I think what Steve is saying is that I (and I includes the 14 year olds that Paul mentioned earlier that we do seem to forget) should have taken as much care choosing an ARTCC as I would choosing a college for my child.

 

Then if that didn't work out I should have had a contingency plan in place to minimize the waste of my time due to a few silly people who only look out for their buddies. I should've known, they advertise that I'd be wasting my time on their oh so accessible website and in the forums that I can't see until I have an active ARTCC p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]word.

Regards,

JX

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1) But you did say that you didn't like the restrictiveness of your ARTCC, and that you felt you needed to stop controlling because of the frustration there, therefore opened the fact that your ARTCC was too restrictive, and how you went about dealing with it. I'm sorry about my earlier post; I didn't mean to insult you.

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2) I also humbly disagree that that the Balance and Research issues are two separate things. To find the proper ARTCC with the balance that you like, you need to do research (even if that 'research' is just chatting with controllers from that ARTCC). However much research that you want to put in is up to you (hence another relation between Realism and Fun, and the balance between them). Research sounds daunting, so maybe a better term for it would be "quick review".

 

VATUSA also needs to clean up it's Evaluations center to provide a recent snapshot of ARTCCs and a better description of them. A much better picture needs to be displayed so that ARTCCs don't all appear the same on the outside. I know that there is a 90 day waiting period after joining an ARTCC to transfer. What I meant to imply was that before you join an ARTCC for the first time, is when this research, any type of research, needs to be done.

**********************************************************************************************

 

You're clearly upset with me....I apologize for speaking the way I was; that was not my intention.

 

You have better linked your own messages together than I did.

 

 

Although, in regards to your next post: I stated that choosing an ARTCC is much more comparable to choosing a College than to choosing which Fast Food restaurant to eat at. I didn't say everyone must treat ARTCC selection as College selection; I feel it is more comparable though, than Fast Food selection.

Steve Ogrodowski

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You're clearly upset with me....I apologize for speaking the way I was; that was not my intention.

I am in no way offended nor upset... just trying to clarify because I felt misunderstood. I don't take things in any forum personal. A forum is a place to freely voice your opinion.

 

 

To find the proper ARTCC with the balance that you like, you need to do research (even if that 'research' is just chatting with controllers from that ARTCC). However much research that you want to put in is up to you (hence another relation between Realism and Fun, and the balance between them).

 

I was a noob and how can an ignorant noob know this?

 

You have better linked your own messages together than I did.

 

I hope that helped you understand what i was trying to convey.

Regards,

JX

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I was a noob and how can an ignorant noob know this?

 

Well this is part of what VATUSA needs to work on. They first, like I said, need to re-evaluate all the ARTCCs...get some sort of a team together to do that. They can do all the information gathering necessary. Then, they can convey that information through all the graphs and charts and paragraphs and etc they want.

 

This information would be available to everyone, and it would be stressed by VATUSA that new members review the information to find out about their ARTCC choices (most, if not all of us, have some idea of where we want to control, usually based on where we live, or a place that we like). After p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing the S-1 USA test, they can again be presented with that information, and they can make their choice.

 

Again, whether every student wants to read through it or not, the information would be there and none would have the room to complain about it. As it currently stands, students have a right to complain, because it is not well presented, and it is just about the same as when I joined four years ago.

 

I briefly chatted with Richard Green on this subject a few days ago, and he mentioned, unfortunately, this is on the backburner, but it is on the stove.

Steve Ogrodowski

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I didn't say everyone must treat ARTCC selection as College selection; I feel it is more comparable though, than Fast Food selection.

 

My analagy I don't think was interpreted quite the way I meant it. My sole intention was to point out that if you repeatedly have the same experience with several different branches of the same "franchise", at what point is it reasonable to conclude that what you have experienced is not an abberation, but in fact the norm? Personally, I don't think that Joe's response was unreasonable. There's an old saying that once is a fluke, twice is coincidence but three times is a pattern.

 

My own experience with franchising and brand identity in this hobby is related to a pair of virtual airlines that I am involved in. Both have their nuances and unique traits, but ultimately they are required to have a great deal of consistency in order to maintain the brand identity. Since all of the ARTCCs operate under the VATUSA banner, in my mind I would expect the core requirements and experience to be pretty similar across all of them, with only minor differences at the edges based on the uniqueness of their airspace. One shouldn't have to do extensive research before deciding on an area, anymore than I need to extensively research the fast food franchises in my area. Sure, some McDonalds locations are better than others, but overall there's a certain expectation I have when I go to one, and it's not going to vary dramatically - or it shouldn't.

 

That's just my .02. From what I've seen, I think VATUSA is moving along those lines and that's good. I just wanted to chime in and suggest that Joe wasn't being unreasonable or easily discouraged, and I'd suggest that he might not be alone; but you don't hear from those folks.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

... I spawn hundreds of children a day. They are daemons because they are easier to kill. The first four remain stubbornly alive despite my (and their) best efforts.

... Normal in my household makes you a member of a visible minority.

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Perhaps an appropriate twist on the analogy would be to say that if you were driving around looking for something decent to eat, and the first three towns had nothing but fast food, you'd probably be justified in giving up on your search for "decent" food and settling for a greaseburger, grumbling all the while. When little did you know that the next town you were to come to would have a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]y steak joint.

 

My point? Let's see ... I think I have one .... oh yes: There actually are significant differences among ARTCCs in VATUSA, just like there are significant differences in the quality of food found at MacDonald's versus the expensive steakhouse. That is not to say that anyone that gets frustrated after three strikeouts is being unreasonable, not at all. I'm eager to see if the training academy will help raise the minimum standard a bit.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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I want to add something to elaborate on something I feel people are taking from my posts.. Now I may be reading into things but just in case I'm not, I want to clarify that I have no problems with my current ARTCC ZTL. I've had problems with 3 staffs in the past, but not this one. When I joined the ZTL roster in early April I was [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to Chris Hargroves as my mentor and he deserves a medal for his patients and attentiveness to his students. Jeffery Williams, ATM, didn't p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] judgement on me (because I'm sure people had bad things to say about me), and James Brickell, TA, has always answered any questions or directed me to who I should talk to. Jeff Turner, VATUSA1, and especially Jason Sutton, VATUSA5, were very helpful once my issue made it up the ladder to them.

 

So you see my posts on this topic are to point out this:

 

There is no solution to reality vs. fun because--> the real controller wants a real pilot and vice versa....the fun pilot wants a fun controller and vice versa, and the noob atc wants a noob pilot and vice versa. We all have to realize and deal with that because it's neccesary. However, what I went through, and what I put the people through who weren't helping the situation, never should've happened...and it killed the fun! For that there are solutions, and we must work to find them everytime.

 

Later ya'll

J

Regards,

JX

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hehe...whenever I start learning a new aiport or position at ZAB, I want expert pilots and new pilots! Expert pilots are typically no muss no fuss. They listen to your instructions and get in and out with a minimum of fuss! New pilots are a lot of fun and allow me to think outside the box a little while I'm helping them.

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Okay...looks like another heated one. I guess I'll just jump in...

 

My experiences say that it's a lot harder to control with a position that works with a short-fuse controller then flying under his airspace. I will not make reference to names, but one very prominent controller in my ARTCC, ZFW, is like that and he is hard to work with. He is also a mentor so it still makes it harder.

 

I still like ZFW. I know some people just left the ARTCC because of him and I wouldn't do that but I do not like that type.

Clear Skies,

Isaac Niedrauer

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I will not make reference to names, but one very prominent controller in my ARTCC, ZFW, is like that and he is hard to work with. He is also a mentor so it still makes it harder.

 

I still like ZFW. I know some people just left the ARTCC because of him and I wouldn't do that but I do not like that type.

 

For that there are solutions, and we must work to find them everytime.

Regards,

JX

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You'd think that NPR and Fox News would be covering this with all the politics flying around in here!

 

LOL...maybe we should call them?

 

Nah...the people on NPR have the softest voices and it puts me to sleep. The people on Fox News get me so angry that, well, i won't go there .

Ethan Klapper

VATUSA13

VATUSA Deputy Events Director

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I'm still an S1. I rejoined again this past January and didn't get a chance to start training until 2 weeks ago. I soloed for DEL and GND the day I started training, and would have soloed for TWR on my third day had my Mentor not had to leave. What a difference one person makes. With my new mentor it has taken an additional two weeks to solo at TWR, but the "training" took three ten minute sessions? In those two weeks I have over 50 hours controlling ground and delivery. I don't understand everyone's logic here. I quit those times in the past because of the frustration this makes me feel. It takes away the fun and makes it feel bureacratic. Too much red tape for the sake of EMULATING the real world on the ADMIN level. I am a firm believer in real world ATC being trained to VATSIM controllers, but see no purpose in emulating realworld admin of the ARTCCs and training programs. Get these guys who are interested in ATC and teach them ATC as fast and proficiently as you can and we all win.

 

>>>With my new mentor it has taken an additional two weeks to solo at TWR, but the "training" took three ten minute sessions?<<<

 

Just want to clarify and I beck your pardon… but if you are talking about your training at Atlanta Artcc…. What you wrote on these lines is completely incorrect.

 

I took you under my wings on April 8th, 2006. After which I set you up to start training and after discussed your status that day, we agree to start on April 10th, 2006

 

We did one session for one and a half hour that day; then on April 11th, 2006 we did the second session for one hour; finally we did a session of 30 minutes on April 12th, 2006.

 

The true is that it only took 3 days for you to be solo at tower…. You were soloist because you showed you were fine to be solo at Tower and is the way it should be always.

 

Is completely incorrect if you say we took two weeks for you to be solo at tower!

 

Not only I recommended you to be Solo at Tower the April 12th , but because you asked I have even [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned you on April 18th the Approach and Departure test which is usually given to Students 3 which you’re not yet!

 

Moreover I recommended you for the Student 3 OTS, that same day! What else you want?

 

>>>In those two weeks I have over 50 hours controlling ground and delivery<<<

 

This is incorrect too… you only have 36 hours more or less on all facilities at the Atlanta Artcc and few on APP not sure why, because for APP you need to be S3 on Atlanta FIR.

 

Finally I have a strong caiman skin and if you spoke about me, I don’t mind… but I have to raise my voice if with your comments you settle down our training department at the Atlanta Artcc; people knows and my TA too, how a great deal of effort I am giving to the training department.

 

Saying this I will be requesting James to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign you a new mentor/Instructor, because I don’t want to loose the confident the Staff has in me and be once again unfairly judged because of bad comments!

 

Thanks

 

Ariel Maisonet

Ztl Instructor

Ariel Maisonet, C3

Vatsim Member since Satco days

RW PPL Instruments & Multiengines

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I would like to copy a line taken from the main VATSIM website ,

It reads

 

The best part of all of this is that VATSIM brings real people together who share your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for flight and air traffic control.

 

That statement alone for me personally speaking is what it is all about.

All members will need to take into account that there is a wide spread of experience levels in this arena from the complete novice to the veteran member which includes real-world ATC and Pilot members.

 

We all have to start somewhere

 

For what its worth, I personally know of members that started into this arena as long ago as the SATCO days and are now here on VATSIM, have gone on to become real world Controllers and Pilots. That to me speaks volumes of how realistic VATSIM has become over the years and is solely due to the time effort and commitment that the majority of the staff and general membership has put into it.

 

That covers the realism of the arena for me.

 

 

The FUN aspect of this arena is probably better worded for me personally as PLEASURE.

I get as much pleasure from completing both a short haul or long haul flight when piloting.

I get as much pleasure out of flying a route with an FMC or by the VOR/NDB's with a basic panel.

I get great pleasure out of p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing on new information and my knowledge to pilots when controlling on both Domestic and Oceanic Control.

I get great pleasure when flying the circuit for a new controller knowing at the end of the session, I have helped him/her in their progression on the ATC ladder to becoming a more proficient controller.

 

 

 

What I do for FUN has always been kept away from VATSIM and if printed here would certainly be covered by censorship -

 

 

Just one opinion from a member of thousands,

 

Best Regards

as always

 

D Finney

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The post by Ariel will be addressed in private. My position stands. My comments are factual...although the reasons they were made here had nothing to do with him...he's a good person. Anyone taking what I said to mean something negative about him doesn't know the full scope of what happens on a daily basis outside of this forum.

Regards,

JX

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I will not make reference to names, but one very prominent controller in my ARTCC, ZFW, is like that and he is hard to work with. He is also a mentor so it still makes it harder.

 

I still like ZFW. I know some people just left the ARTCC because of him and I wouldn't do that but I do not like that type.

 

For that there are solutions, and we must work to find them everytime.

 

The person that left the ARTCC was a very top guy and very influential (sp?). He left because he had been fighting this guy for a year and nothing was coming out of it so he departed for ZHU.

Clear Skies,

Isaac Niedrauer

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Comments/complaints regarding a mentor/instructor at any facility should be addressed to that person directly or to the training staff at that facility, not to this forum.

 

Yeah that's my point that no one wants hear me because this is the Day's of our Lives gossip and drama column. This will probably be the 10th time I've said this and it's the last.... The point of this topic is about fun vs. realism, and the things that have happened to me since I've joined Vatsim that have taken the fun out of the experience are what got pointed out in my posts.

 

I had no issues with Ariel until he posted that BS reply. So Jeff, Ariel, Scott, and anyone else who doesn't like my manner of doing things... I joined Vatsim before ALL OF YOU and got no where from being quiet and not wanting to start "DRAMA" or be seen as a "WHINER". Now I'm saying what I see. If you don't want me to say it don't let me see it. I've been called more negative things in the past 2 months than the entire 4 yrs on Vatsim...and guess what...I've controlled and trained about 60 hours now in 27 days, and had never really controlled at all before then. Results are results. Sorry you guys don't like it but my only other alternative is to sit around and wait until ONE of YOU gives a s**t about me.

 

peace,

Joe Caban

844086

 

PS: The only one that did left ZTL not too long ago.

Regards,

JX

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Jeffery,

 

I am not addressing problems on this forum. I am addressing a bigger problem which is the point of this thread. Some people just don't know how to have realism and fun at the same time. And I noticed some people didn't seem to believe that was the case. There is nothing wrong with bringing up an example.

 

- Isaac

Clear Skies,

Isaac Niedrauer

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Jeffery,

 

I am not addressing problems on this forum. I am addressing a bigger problem which is the point of this thread. Some people just don't know how to have realism and fun at the same time. And I noticed some people didn't seem to believe that was the case. There is nothing wrong with bringing up an example.

 

- Isaac

 

I dont think jeff was refering to you

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Comments/complaints regarding a mentor/instructor at any facility should be addressed to that person directly or to the training staff at that facility, not to this forum.

 

Yeah that's my point that no one wants hear me because this is the Day's of our Lives gossip and drama column. This will probably be the 10th time I've said this and it's the last.... The point of this topic is about fun vs. realism, and the things that have happened to me since I've joined Vatsim that have taken the fun out of the experience are what got pointed out in my posts.

 

I had no issues with Ariel until he posted that BS reply. So Jeff, Ariel, Scott, and anyone else who doesn't like my manner of doing things... I joined Vatsim before ALL OF YOU and got no where from being quiet and not wanting to start "DRAMA" or be seen as a "WHINER". Now I'm saying what I see. If you don't want me to say it don't let me see it. I've been called more negative things in the past 2 months than the entire 4 yrs on Vatsim...and guess what...I've controlled and trained about 60 hours now in 27 days, and had never really controlled at all before then. Results are results. Sorry you guys don't like it but my only other alternative is to sit around and wait until ONE of YOU gives a s**t about me.

 

peace,

Joe Caban

844086

 

PS: The only one that did left ZTL not too long ago.

 

>>> I joined Vatsim before ALL OF YOU and got no where from being quiet and not wanting to start "DRAMA" or be seen as a "WHINER". <<<

 

Sorry … once again you are incorrect... check my record on Vatsim statistic, my first entry is July 7th, 2001 while yours is December 6th, 2002; and I am not counting my days back at SATCO.

 

From the Vatsim record I think Jeffery Williams started before you too as well as many others; however that is not a big deal; been a member longer than another is not a license to say “I am the Godfather of Vatsimâ€

Ariel Maisonet, C3

Vatsim Member since Satco days

RW PPL Instruments & Multiengines

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