Two modest suggestions to improve traffic density

[Orest Skrypuch]

There is nothing more frustrating than getting flight planning done, logging on, getting clearance and so on, pushing back, and then find that all the ATC that was on InfoServ just disappears. I try to note how long someone has been on, and of course the typical times that centers have coverage, but it is anything but foolproof.

 

In frustration, when ATC disappears, I often just Esc and quit the flight. I am writing this because I just had this happen three times in a row in the last few days.

 

Now, DO NOT GET ME WRONG, this is a hobby not a job, and folks only have so much hobby time. I am just suggesting that perhaps we can do something to better co-ordinate the available pilot & ATC "hobby" time. I am sure there is nothing more frustrating for a controller than to log on, spend an entire evening staring at a computer, and have only two flights to ocntrol.

 

 

Here are my suggestions:

 

 

1) I have noticed that many FIRs in Europe post a schedule of when to expect ATC coverage, and what type. This would be marvelous, it would only be a guide as RW often intrudes, but at least there would be something. Helps you plan where to fly, and gets traffic out, which in turn gives a better experience for the controller.

 

I have noticed on some ARTCC sites that there are sections for ATC rosters, but these seem to be always near empty, and not very useful. Probably good to put this in the ATIS as well, (I've seen that occasionally in the US) maybe folks will actually read the ATIS! Is there anything that can be done to encourage this??

 

 

2) Also in Europe, there is a multi-regional High Center (above FL230 I think) that covers areas that do not have local Center controllers active. This sure would improve high center coverage in the US, if there was say a NE high center, and S high center, I guess more or less mirroring the regional nights -- which BTW I think was a super idea.

 

Now, I am sure this would be a lot more difficult as you would have to be proficient with so many more airspaces, and perhaps there are issues with the software, I do not know; no doubt there may be "political" issues as well inter-ARTCC, but golly it sure would be nice, and bottom line, again, it would get pilots out, which would improve the controller experience too!

 

 

Any thoughts on this, or am I all wet?

 

* Orest

Edited April 28, 2006 at 05:00 PM by Guest

[Aaron Flodin 878523]

Coordinating ATC times, sure no problem. High sector enroute controllers, Not thinkin so:)

[Craig Moulton]

I'll get you a towel.

[Ethan Klapper 884347]

Coordinating ATC times, sure no problem. High sector enroute controllers, Not thinkin so:)

 

Yeah, it's a good idea, but the high sector controllers are part of Eurocontrol in the real life. In the real life FAA, we still have ~21 enroute ARTCCs that work independently of each other. The closest it gets to that is intra-ARTCC sector consolidation overnight, when some enroute centers only operate with 4 (or fewer) sectors (at 3 AM of course!)

 

You can also argue that the ARTCCs are unified by the Air Traffic Control System Command Center (ATCSCC) in Washington, but that operation doesn't physically talk to planes. Those are the folks that deal with traffic management, SWAPs, and the playbooks .

 

EK

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

1) I have noticed that many FIRs in Europe post a schedule of when to expect ATC coverage, and what type. This would be marvelous, it would only be a guide as RW often intrudes, but at least there would be something. Helps you plan where to fly, and gets traffic out, which in turn gives a better experience for the controller.

 

VATUSA already has that, but it is hardly promoted at all, and nobody uses it. On the homepage, under the banner on the right you'll see ATC & Pilot Booking. I've used it before, but I haven't in the last few weeks since I haven't had any of my flights set in stone. But it is there, it's just a matter of getting ATC and pilots to use it.

[Orest Skrypuch]

 

VATUSA already has that, but it is hardly promoted at all, and nobody uses it. On the homepage, under the banner on the right you'll see ATC & Pilot Booking. I've used it before, but I haven't in the last few weeks since I haven't had any of my flights set in stone. But it is there, it's just a matter of getting ATC and pilots to use it.

 

Yes, I noticed that before, just clicked it again, it is completely blank.

 

It would seem difficult to encourgage pilots to use it, as they are all individuals for the most part, and there are hundreds and thousands, and really you need the ATC there to attract them, rather than the reverse.

 

Comparitively it would be much easier to get ATC doing this, as they are ALL in 20 or so groups, with a command hierachy. Leave it optional, but officially encourage it through the ARTCC leaders. Traffic will start to appear, and will be encouraging enough.

 

If I am planning a flight from DEN to SFO, say DEN is up on ServInfo normally I'm logging on quick and keeping fingers crossed. If instead I just click on their ATIS, which shows another 90 min or so at DEN, and SFO isn't up yet, but checking the schedule, they should be up in an hour or so, well, here we go.

 

* Orest

Edited April 28, 2006 at 07:20 PM by Guest

[Orest Skrypuch]

 

Yeah, it's a good idea, but the high sector controllers are part of Eurocontrol in the real life. In the real life FAA, we still have ~21 enroute ARTCCs that work independently of each other. The closest it gets to that is intra-ARTCC sector consolidation overnight, when some enroute centers only operate with 4 (or fewer) sectors (at 3 AM of course!)

 

Yes, I appreciate that it is mirroring RW across the pond. It would be very difficult to do on VATSIM, but would solve a lot of dead zones.

 

* Orest

[Tanner Litowsky 877756]

Check out some of the ARTCC websites some of them have sign ups for controllers to sign up on what position they want and the times.

 

An example is the ZLA, check them out. www.laartcc.org

[Craig Moulton]

The thing with ZLA too, and perhaps some other ARTCC's is that their sign-ups will be shown on what is now called "Euro-book" and is available through ServInfo.

[Orest Skrypuch]

The thing with ZLA too, and perhaps some other ARTCC's is that their sign-ups will be shown on what is now called "Euro-book" and is available through ServInfo.

 

That sounds great. I use ServInfo all the time, but never noticed a Euro-book facility. How does that work?

 

* Orest

[Paul Heaney 879309]

Posting when you'll be on, is fine and dandy, but I won't use it. When I logon, it's when I'm able, and I leave when I have to. I can't predict real world, so it's uncertain when I'll be on and off.

[Orest Skrypuch]

Hmm, found the website, don't see how it works with the current version of ServInfo, maybe needs an update.

 

http://www.euro-book.net/index.php?action=1&menu=2

 

Blank for the US for today. Sure looks like a great facility though.

 

* Orest

[Matthew Horan 901577]

I've found if you fly a sector fairly often, and get to know the controllers, you can tell when they'll be online -- I control most nights of the week, and Saturday mornings on Oceanic -- pilots eventually catch on, and they'll come when the time is right

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Well, the problem is that the U.S. never got itself into the habit of a booking system.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a good idea on paper. But around here in VATUSA, many of us are just too busy to know when we will feel like hopping on and controlling. Availability-wise, there are two kinds of us: Those who like to plan ahead and set aside time, or those of us who are doing other business, and then sit down when we're in the mood to control.

 

Those among us who plan ahead, generally have set schedules and timeframes they wish to control each week or day. They would be best to use the booking system. Those among us (me included), who tend to control on a whim, usually control for two or three hours and then sign off. We stop controlling after we're burned out, or have sat at a blank scope for a few hours . I could never write down ahead of time when I was going to control, and I could never get into that habit. For events it's no problem, but for day-to-day, I just feel it's too much to worry about.

 

Now I dunno, perhaps our sectors would profit from having a scheduled system, but I have a feeling it won't affect it too much in the U.S. Just like many of us controllers control on a whim, I know a lot of pilots who fly on a whim. When they do fly, they immediately check for who's online. They don't go to a booking system to see who will be online, they go right to ServInfo's semi-live data.

 

For those of us who want the option to sign up, that's okay. It would help us as staff members to see how often and for what duration our Centers and facilities are being run (are a bunch of people overlapping? do we have ten hours of Center coverage?). But before we start really encouraging it, two or three things need to happen:

 

1) USA needs to choose its booking system, whether it be its own system, or Euro-book. If Euro-Book, then it would need to be reconfigured for us folks over here. That would probably take a lot more work, and so wouldn't be the path to go. If using the USA system, then the colors really need to be fixed that's a crazy scheme.

 

2) The ATC booking list needs to be promoted and displayed right on VATUSA's website, right in the fore ground somewhere.

 

3) All ARTCCs (not just ZLA) need to know how they can set up their own websites to allow booking entry, and to recall those entries on their website, similar to what LA has done. A big thing around here is that we often just check our local facility's website, and not even VATUSA so much. So, what LA has to insert these entries to Euro-Book is good, we just need to spread that to other ARTCCs. Many more people would make entries and monitor their ARTCC booking if it was on their website, even if they don't care about the rest of the booking system.

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited April 30, 2006 at 04:27 PM by Guest

[Craig Merriman 834118]

The booking system on the VATUSA web site ties into Eurobook (top nav 'ATC and Pilot Booking'). That has been in place for quite some time now. I believe Scott Bickford got that up and running at least a couple years ago.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the staff not caring? Generalizations about the staff do no good (which these forums are famous for), if you have specifics, then we can address that. If you're saying that system is broken or not functioning as expected, I'll look at it and see what's wrong.

 

We're also tied into the pilot booking system (www.euro-book.net). The plan going forward is to integrate those two systems and they will definitely be a more prominent part of the site.

[Andras Kiss 888081]

The big problem with booking is that a lot of people never know when they can actually get on. I might get up on a wed and say "I want to control today" and plan for it, but lo and behold my teachers decide to dump about 20 hrs of homework on me. A lot of people who don't have set schedules will find booking a near impossibility.

 

What I do support is putting in the approx time of departure aka "Open till XXXX Zulu" and try and actually stay open that late +-10 min or so.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Well that was what I was unaware of. I've never, ever heard mention of the booking system or its usefulness, from anyone. Ever. I don't mean that the staff is doing a bad job; I just mean to say that it's not apparently near the top of anyone's interest lists, whether it's mine or anyone elses.

 

I did not know that the USA system is already tied to the other systems. As such is the case, just out of curiosity, why is ZLA's website specifically forwarding/sending its booking data only on the Euro-Book board?

 

In the mean-time, would there be any way to enter data into VATUSA's system from our website, or could you lead me to that? I would be interested in seeing if I could get this up, as I just redesigned our website. It would work well in our new members section, and we could see if it would be useful or not.

[Craig Moulton]

To get Eurobook info from ServInfo, what you need to do is first open ServInfo.

 

Note that at the top there are 3 icons. VATSIM, IVAO, and a greyed out ICON with two computers on it. That 3rd icon has up/down arrows on the right side. Click the up arrow twice and it should show Eurobook. Clicking on that icon now will show all the data currently stored in Eurobook.

 

I don't often use it, but it is there for those that wish to.

 

Note that this will allow you to view the info, but will not allow you to schedule a flight or ATC session.

[Craig Merriman 834118]

There are a handful of people who do use that system fairly consistently. I agree until recently it probably wan't on the top of anyone's list. I'm with Andras in that I can't nece[Mod - Happy Thoughts]arily schedule time far enough in advance. That doesn't mean that we can't take the 2 minutes it takes to fill out the booking when you do hop on, at least then you have some inkling of how long you might be on for.

 

We can definitely talk about exchanging data between sites. I see web services as part of the future for the VATUSA site.

[Orest Skrypuch]

Scheduling ATC sessions the next day or further in advance is one thing, but just having in an ATIS (or elsewhere) how long you expect to be controlling that afternoon is quite another thing, and much easier to do -- and probably more useful.

 

As I mentioned, InfoServ will let you know who is online and I consult it often, but it is even more important to me how long you are going to continue to be online.

 

When I see a couple of adjacent ARTCCs manned, I think about flying, if I knew that they would be both online (likely) for at least an hour or two, I'm there. I don't think I'm alone in this.

 

* Orest

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

ZSE uses the Eurobook booking system. However, I've noticed that it is mainly used for OTS's and those kinds of things. I think it started out being used pretty regularly, then controllers realized they couldn't make it and felt guilty/frustrated. It's much less stressful to just see if a position is open and take something for a couple of hours.

 

Personally, I don't have the endurance to stay on and control for more than a couple of hours unless it's really busy. (I get bored easily) I can't just walk away from the computer like I can if I'm flying. I do think that most controllers at ZSE will do their best to give others plenty of warning that they're leaving, and allow another controller to jump on to ensure seamless service.

 

I know that many people have expressed the desire to see an "Online until XXXXz" in the atis. I will try to encourage that to others, and do it myself.

[Samuel Hudis 954070]

so what about instituting a eurocontrol-like system in the US?

 

why not?

[Fred Clausen]

so what about instituting a eurocontrol-like system in the US?

 

why not?

 

Because its not realistic.

[Samuel Hudis 954070]

its still more realistic than unicom

[Brandon Grchan 925585]

its still more realistic than unicom

 

No actually its not....