Jump to content

Strange behavoir from ATC


Stacy Krahn 907079
 Share

Recommended Posts

I've only run into this problem and yes it's a problem twice.

 

When doing a flight, aircraft (Commercial usually) will do step climbs to get better fuel economy. I fly a lot on vatsim, and will make these steps as planned in the flight plan. I was on with a controller in Minneapolis center the other night. He didn't want me to make another scheduled step climb coming up because he wanted me back down to my original flight level. That didn't make sense as I needed those steps to make sure I get to my destination with fuel. So when he told me to descend I disconnected and climbed.

 

It goes right along with those controllers that request that I fly direct and miss a bunch of fixes. I would rather keep it real and stick to my fixes. So as for now on, I will disconnect any time a controller request I do something that doesn't keep it real. Sorry guys you might be giving people a cool thing, but they don't do that in the real world.

86648.png]
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a few different things that could've happened but we need more details. What altitude were you at, what did you want to be at, and which direction were you flying.

I suspect you were at the wrong altitude for direction of flight and requested a climb to another invalid altitude.

Josh Glottmann
Deputy Air Traffic Manager
Oakland ARTCC
[email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said "scheduled step climb" -- did you have it as part of your flight plan? In real-world in the U.S., they don't accept that in a flight plan, you just file your initial requested cruise altitude, then when you want higher you simply request it.

 

Then direct routings are done in real-world all the time (and pilots constantly ask for it). When I was a controller, the only time I would ever have a pilot refuse one if it was too significant (like direct a fix 3000nm away as we'd sometimes do on the midnight shift) when they would get to the airport way too early and a gate probably wouldn't be open. But 99.9% of real-world pilots prefer as much as a shortcut as ATC can provide, because many are running late anyway, and it saves fuel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The primary purpose of the ATC system is ... to provide a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of traffic, ...

(emphasis mine)

 

That's from FAA JO 7110.65 § 2-1-1. So, if able, the FAA actually says it's ATC's purpose to expedite the flow of traffic, i.e. send you direct to a future fix to cut out unnecessary mileage. Making you fly all of those extra fixes when neither navigation nor separation require it... that is the "unrealistic" thing to do.

 

Can't speak to what the likely problem with the step climb was, only because I don't know Minnie and can't speak to the traffic picture at the time or the SOPs/LOAs that might have been applicable.

 

Since you apparently will just throw a temper tantrum whenever things don't go as planned in your own world, why not just fly all of your flights offline?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the key as the folks stated above is did you actually ask for it? you have to be cleared to continue the climb, not just do it because your FMC tells you to. always ask prior to doing it if you are with ATC.

 

once you ask for it, theyll check the traffic, and if its clear, youll often have no issues getting it. if there is traffic that might conflict, they wont obviously give it to you until its clear.

 

not sure about the "keeping it real" part in your post cause it sounds a bit like you arent fully away how real world works, which is fine, everyone often has those misunderstandings, but like above there are things you need to do before certain actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I was already at the altitude I wanted to be at, I was at the right altitude for direction of flight, there was no other traffic around to make it un safe, and by the way, if all you guys are going to yell your replies I wont post here again.

 

There is no need to be rude, that's my job.

86648.png]
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no need to be rude, that's my job.

There's no reason for anybody to be rude, yourself included.

Can you provide some more information? It seems like there was a misunderstanding on some part and we can't figure out why what happened happened unless we know more info.

Josh Glottmann
Deputy Air Traffic Manager
Oakland ARTCC
[email protected]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is mine and any other CTR controller's job to help the pilot get to their destination safely, if that means doing something you don't like, then trust that the controller knows what he is doing. If you don't agree on something however, then ask us! We are more than happy to accommodate your flight in our airspace as you (ie. the pilot) is what gives us pleasure when we control. The controller might well have been doing something he thought was right for your aircraft. I trust he would have got you in and out of his airspace without a hitch.

Andrew Ogden | I3
Gander Oceanic OCA Chief
VATSIM Web Developer

Visit us: https://ganderoceanic.com
Contact: [email protected] 

431466725_bannersmall.png.dd3c45679f76aeb32af4d6ff6fb9854a.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is mine and any other CTR controller's job to help the pilot get to their destination safely, if that means doing something you don't like, then trust that the controller knows what he is doing. If you don't agree on something however, then ask us! We are more than happy to accommodate your flight in our airspace as you (ie. the pilot) is what gives us pleasure when we control. The controller might well have been doing something he thought was right for your aircraft. I trust he would have got you in and out of his airspace without a hitch.

 

 

If there is a logical reason for skipping fixes and lowering altitudes I will do it, but when it's to save time for the controller, then I will not fly on vatsim, it's stupid.

 

I spend a lot of time talking to a real pilot, he flies in the real world, they don't have you skip fixes, and unless there is a good reason, they don't call you up and have you lower your altitude just because of what ever reason.

 

There are some really good controllers and then there are people that just want to do what ever. I think those that really do go out of there way to do it more real make it more fun for us. I know of at least one that has real world experience and I've never had him tell me to do something that doesn't make sense.

 

sorry to be going on about this, but I've been thinking about it for a long time, and once they get a good client I'll be switching over to pilots edge, at least I know they have real world experience or have been trained at it.

 

I've had vatsim controllers make mistakes, that's one thing I understand that, I make them myself, but to do stuff that is just plan stupid, that's different. I'm not calling anyone stupid, just the short cuts after I just added 10 fixes or just because the controller wants me to exit their airspace faster, who knows. I been doing vatsim sense 2012 steady, and seen all kinds of things...

 

anyway, enough said, this is now dead, I wont respond here again.

86648.png]
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there is a logical reason for skipping fixes and lowering altitudes I will do it, but when it's to save time for the controller, then I will not fly on vatsim, it's stupid.

 

thats their primary job, no you dont have to take it if given, but clearly you do not understand how the ATC system works. just tell the controller youd like to continue as filed.

 

not sure what this real world pilot is telling you but clearly you are either misunderstanding him or misinterpreting what his advice is, because if hes telling you they dont do it, hes absolutely wrong and id go even further to question said credentials and/or experience level at that point. a pilot that hasnt experienced being given a direct at some point? rarity these days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It goes right along with those controllers that request that I fly direct and miss a bunch of fixes. I would rather keep it real and stick to my fixes. So as for now on, I will disconnect any time a controller request I do something that doesn't keep it real. Sorry guys you might be giving people a cool thing, but they don't do that in the real world.

Keep it real

 

Last year in the real world, a Lufthansa airbus had to request a few extra laps in the Oslo TMA (arriving ENGM) because they'd been rotued direct so much that they'd wound up above MLW. They're planes, they don't need roads, spending extra dollars on unnecessary trackmiles is as unrealistic as you get (though I am aware the FAA doesn't do direct routings as much as us silly Europeans). If they can go direct to everyone's benefit under the supervision of an ATC, off they go. In Europe, FIRs (ARTCCs) often have extensive Letters of Agreements with neighbouring FIRs, providing agreed-upon direct routings across borders that does not require prior coordination. For example, at ENOS CTR, I can send aircraft that've filed certain ATS routes through about 200nm of foreign airspace (different agreements with both Sweden, Denmark, and the UK). That usually adds up to about 400 or 500nm of direct routings, accounting for my own airspace.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Disclaimer: citing US regulations here, may not apply in ICAO-areas)

 

From the AIM as of 11/10/16, section 4-4-10, "Adherence to Clearance" paragraph g:

 

g. The guiding principle is that the last ATC clearance has precedence over the previous ATC clearance. When the route or altitude in a previously issued clearance is amended, the controller will restate applicable altitude restrictions. If altitude to maintain is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, those altitude restrictions are canceled, including departure procedures and STAR altitude restrictions.

 

And from FAA 7110.65 section 4-3-2, "Departure Clearances" note at the end of the section:

 

NOTE− Considering the principle that the last ATC clearance issued has precedence over the previous, the phraseology ’maintain (altitude)’ alone cancels previously issued altitude restrictions, including SID/STAR altitude restrictions, unless they are restated or modified.

 

So, in summary, if ATC told you to climb and maintain FL270 for whatever reason and your cruise was FL350, and you had a step climb coming up, hate to sound harsh but you're not going to make it. You're going to have to wait until ATC gives you the next climb instruction, because you were told to climb and maintain the stated altitude, which means you get to it and stay there until your next instruction, and that is the way it works in the real-world. You can't see the blips on the scope, he can. For all you know if you had started your step climb you could have busted separation.

Brad Lee

spacer.png

ZJX ARTCC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To echo and add to the other people that have already responded, I don't understand why you're complaining? A route shortcut is a very common sequencing tactic, one I used last night while controlling an event. We shortcut the first aircraft in line, and the bends in following aircraft''s routes will increase separation. As well, it allows you to go quicker and more direct. Honestly, shortcuts are really nice, and most pilots appreciate them. It's very realistic, and actually makes our job harder when pilots say they are unable shortcuts and request to continue on their route.

 

As far as step climbs go, most people will be ok with you needing to climb. However, the key is it needs to be commanded or approved through a controller first. Your previous instruction to your original cruise altitude was 'Climb and maintain XXXXX,' and thus you are not cleared to climb higher until told to do so. It's pretty simple, "Minneapolis Center, ABC123 request FL380" and most of the time they'll give you the climb. But if you climb without a clearance you could run into other traffic and pose a problem.

 

Overall, I don't think anyone's being rude to you, we're trying to explain why the controller actually did nothing wrong and shouldn't be criticized. Use this as an opportunity to learn and continue to grow your knowledge of air traffic control, we all have things we can improve on.

Logo.png

 

Krikor Hajian (HI) - 1283146

Deputy Air Traffic Manager | Instructor

[email protected]

VATUSA ACE Team Member | VATSIM Supervisor

- - - - - - - - - -

BVA is on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said "scheduled step climb" -- did you have it as part of your flight plan? In real-world in the U.S., they don't accept that in a flight plan, you just file your initial requested cruise altitude, then when you want higher you simply request it.

 

I file flight plans into the NAS all the time with speed and altitude changes enroute. It is accepted on domestic flight plans and with the FAA moving to full ICAO in the very near future (keeps getting pushed back, now it's tentatively April 7th), ICAO flight plans support step climbs in the routing as well. So it is used in the NAS.

 

---

 

Short cuts are definitely used real world and on VATSIM. I've used them both rw and on VATSIM to break ties versus playing vectors games with both of them and save the pilot some fuel. I shaved 5 miles off a guy's route by giving him direct, ensured he was #1, and put him on the ground a few seconds early. Had I not done a short cut, I'd have to vector him around to create that gap. It saves me time, and it saves the pilot time. What is faster for you, the pilot, and me? "Proceed direct IAF" then "Maintain 3000 until IAF, cleared ILS runway 2L approach" or "Turn 20 degrees right, vectors for sequencing" "turn left heading 110" then "Turn left heading 050, maintain 3000 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 2L approach". There are dozens of reasons for short cuts, not just to save the pilot time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way I understood the problem from the original post was that the ATC asked the pilot to descend to his/her original level because that's what he/she'd filed. For example, the pilot filed FL330, then climbed to FL350 in uncontrolled airspace or with another ATC, and then asked for FL370 from MSP_CTR, but was told to descend to FL330 because that's what the flightplan says. That, however, sounds extremely unlikely.

 

He didn't want me to make another scheduled step climb coming up because he wanted me back down to my original flight level.
KntU2Cw.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I find most likely is that the pilot didn't request the climb and started to climb on his/her own. It's actually an easy mistake to make because it seems logical you have to fly what you filed, both the route and altitude. Just like with STARs where people think they're required to descend as the chart says and don't realize they need a separate clearance for that.

KntU2Cw.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

most likely is that the pilot didn't request the climb and started to climb on his/her own.

That was my read on it as well. Is that different in ICAO versus FAA environments? The pilot says this took place within KZMP so a specific request for the new altitude would need to be verbalized, regardless of how it was filed. Is that also true outside the US?

 

As far as the shortcut, though, I'm still at a loss as to how a 6000+-hour pilot doesn't know that's common practice, both VATSIM and real...

Cheers,

-R.

fvJfs7z.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sorry to be going on about this, but I've been thinking about it for a long time, and once they get a good client I'll be switching over to pilots edge, at least I know they have real world experience or have been trained at it.

 

Oh to know when to pull the recording from when you get cleared "direct" on Pilotedge.

 

Maybe the biggest thing you need to take time to visit, is your attitude. From your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ertion that you disconnect when you haven't gotten your way, and will continue to do so, to your general demeanor in this discussion. I pretty much have come to the conclusion that you just feel that it's really all about you. You posted a statement in this forum, which was very politely and constructively addressed even by those with "real world experience". Yet because it wasn't what you wanted to hear, you disconnected yourself from the discussion as you do during your flying experience. I don't know how old you are, but I can tell you how old your acting. So, bye

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Taking several of the arguments provided above, does this imply that you would prefer us to submit a FP like KMIA DCT KLAX?

 

That then is the shortest possible route to save time, fuel, and h[Mod - Happy Thoughts]le. As a controller and a pilot when I see a flight plan KXXX DCT KXXY I think about the issues and extra work load.

 

I have posted about this before, but I still don't understand why (apart from a separation tool) ATC think that a pilot doesn't want what they filed. If I wanted to fly the shortest route I'd file that.

Sean

C1/O P3

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...