Jump to content

Strange behavoir from ATC


Recommended Posts

If I wanted to fly the shortest route I'd file that.

And because it makes it immensely difficult (if not impossible) to predict separation (maybe that changes if NextGen comes to VATSIM ), you'd likely not receive a clearance for it. If, however, you plan a sensible route, various controllers along the way can look ahead within theirs and neighboring sectors once you're airborne and see if MOAs are cold, separation exists, etc. and then remove unnecessary bits of the route (based on LOAs, navigational capabilities, etc.). I wouldn't expect the DEL controller on the ground at KMIA to predict the future and know whether airspaces and MOAs are clear such that a DCT clearance makes sense, nor would I expect Albuquirky Center to be able to immediately and accurately picture how "KMIA..DCT..KLAX" bisects their sectors when they see that flight strip.

 

Wanting the easiest/most-direct path doesn't mean an intelligent pilot will plan it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Taking several of the arguments provided above, does this imply that you would prefer us to submit a FP like KMIA DCT KLAX?

 

No, that actually doesn't work in your behalf, but as a terminal controller, once you're airborne, and traffic permitting, I'm may be inclined as a friendly and expiditious gesture to give you direct to the first waypoint outside of my airspace. I'd encourage to listen to LiveATC, especially later at night and you would see how commonplace this is. With enroute controllers the "direct to" can and will extend even further. Is it because you feel you've invested so much time entering waypoints? Is it because you really wanted to see the Grand Canyon from the air that makes this inconvenient? There is a cool one word statement afforded to all pilots for any circomestance. Ready for it..."unable"

Link to post
Share on other sites

With respect there is a huge difference between "unable" and "prefer not to".

 

I'm a C1/O, and it is my personal belief, I cannot understand why Controllers need to "recleared direct... then planed route!" I honestly cannot see why, unless it is for separation, sequencing etc.

 

I see it the same as going to a salesperson at any shop, asking for something, and the salesperson saying "sure, I'll give it to you without.....". What the?

 

As mentioned it is just one of the strangest most unbelievable things I have every experienced. I know it happens in the real world, but on VATSIM I'm not paying for fuel, or have timetables that I get penalised if I don't keep. BUT even if I did, wouldn't I say "request track shortening!"

 

Please don't get upset, it is something that I cannot see any sense in. I guess though if given "recleared direct Xxxxx, then planned route!" Is the preferred response "unable!" even though it is a lie.

Sean

C1/O P3

spacer.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unable is just unable. In real life, could I make a LAHSO landing? Probably; but do I necessarily want to chance it depending on the circomestances? So I'll either accept the instruction or say "unable". It's perfectly acceptable. I guess, if it feels better, then you can say, when cleared direct, "If able, request planned route." In most cases, there isn't any more reason to deny that request than there is clear someone direct. It's to the pilot's benefit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Nick,

 

in this context "unable" means that you are technically unable to follow an instruction, or weather or fuel burn (max landing m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] at destination). If you do not want to use a shortcut because you just don't want to, then rather use the phrase "request to follow filed route". ATC will understand this and not think "bloody noob has no idea about his/her FMC"

Link to post
Share on other sites
Taking several of the arguments provided above, does this imply that you would prefer us to submit a FP like KMIA DCT KLAX?

 

No, that actually doesn't work in your behalf, but as a terminal controller, once you're airborne, and traffic permitting, I'm may be inclined as a friendly and expiditious gesture to give you direct to the first waypoint outside of my airspace. I'd encourage to listen to LiveATC, especially later at night and you would see how commonplace this is. With enroute controllers the "direct to" can and will extend even further. Is it because you feel you've invested so much time entering waypoints? Is it because you really wanted to see the Grand Canyon from the air that makes this inconvenient? There is a cool one word statement afforded to all pilots for any circomestance. Ready for it..."unable"

 

Agreed. There have been times where I've heard controllers at ZLA (real world) give a pilot "Cleared direct CRL" to a pilot who's filed STAAV7.DVC J146 GIJ J554 JHW J106 LVZ.LENDY5 KJFK. This not only took out a number of northeastbound segments along their route, but put them directly on their STAR into KJFK. For those not in the know, CRL is in Michigan. This was someone just outside of Las Vegas giving them clearance to a VOR almost 2000 miles outside their airspace.

 

I was taught this back when I was a student roughly 17 years ago: Filed flight plans, while taken seriously, aren't etched in stone as the be all/end all of a flight. In short, just because a pilot wants it, doesn't necessarily mean that the pilot is going to get it, especially in clear conditions. You may get deviations. You may get shortcuts. But one of the biggest reason for a filed flight plan is for lost comms. Should something happen, the pilot has his instructions for what he/she should do in case of NORDO.

 

Regardless of that, let's also put this in the real world. Which would be better for an airline: Stay in the air along a filed etched-in-stone flight plan to get their p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers to their destination, hopefully on time, and spend the proper amount of money on equipment and fuel...

 

.. or take a shortcut, get their p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]engers to their destination ahead of time, and save fuel for their next flight, which would be an even lesser expense for the airline to have to purchase?

 

BL.

Brad Littlejohn

ZLA Senior Controller

27

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Brad,

 

in general I agree with what you wrote, but also keep in mind that the shortest routing (distance) is not necessarily the shortest routing time-wise, don't forget the upper level winds that can be quite different when flying 100NM or 200NM off track, jetstreams can be quite narrow. Our navigation programs normally try to find the lowest time track and a small detour can actually be beneficial.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
Ok, I was already at the altitude I wanted to be at, I was at the right altitude for direction of flight, there was no other traffic around to make it un safe, and by the way, if all you guys are going to yell your replies I wont post here again.

 

There is no need to be rude, that's my job.

 

Perhaps, it is fine to ask "can I stay on my current altitude?" "I'd prefer rather fly through all fixes". Did ATC say no impatiently?

 

I am a noob in online flight, but I listen to Live ATC, I often hear pilots request something they want other than what ATC initially instructed and they often describe why they want to do so as well.

 

And always, there is a chance the request to be approved, as well as chance to receive "unable". That's the realism. Always something could be out of our expectation, that's why there is a need to have ATC to monitor and give instruction lively. Find solutions while pilots are right on the sky (instead of preplanned for every second they will spend).

 

By the way, I don't think people were "yelling" at you. (I belive they didn't mean to make you angry either) They were talking about their opinion and with standard respect just like talking to any other people.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...