ATC Giving Vectors?

[Justin Berry 1388016]

Say for instance, my flight plan is KLAX CYYC

GMN4 EHF LLC REO J537 ONEAL VUCAN THIRD3. As a beginning pilot, I understand that GMN4 will be the departure, EHF intersection then as filed. However, do I need to fly this manually, using the GPS, or will ATC guide me through this with vectors?

[Bradley Grafelman]

GMN4 will be the departure, EHF intersection

Close; it's the EHF transition. The word "transition" is used because there's actually a process involved to get you to that waypoint, e.g. you don't head directly to EHF after departure.

 

However, do I need to fly this manually, using the GPS, or will ATC guide me through this with vectors?

The answer is: always do what you were cleared/instructed to do. So, if the last navigational instruction you received was "Cleared to Calgary International Airport, Gorman Six depature, Shafter transition, then as filed, ..." (noting that GMN4 is out of date), then you do exactly what the "Gorman Six depature" tells you to do, including the instructions for the "Shafter transition."

 

[Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming KLAX is in its normal configuration (departures to the west), you would: "Climb on heading 251° to cross SMO R-154 at or below 3000, then on RADAR vector to LAX R-323 and GMN R-142 to GMN VORTAC. Thence ... From over GMN VORTAC on GMN R-328 and EHF R-150 to EHF VORTAC."

 

(From a practical standpoint... whoever's handling LAX_DEP will likely issue you a climb to 6k over the ocean, turn you northbound (350 or 360 or so) and instruct you to "join the Gorman 328 radial and resume the departure".)

 

TL;DR: Read the chart; it tells you what to do.

[1275389]

TL;DR: Read the chart; it tells you what to do. :P

All US SID/STAR charts come with text descriptions that explain exactly what you have to do based off certain conditions. Usually, it's just what runway/operations are in use, other times you may have different restrictions due to your aircraft type. If the graphical description doesn't make sense -- look at the text one. And if that still doesn't make sense, shoot the controller a PM and I'm sure they'd be more than happy to explain.

[Justin Berry 1388016]

Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it! Still got one question though, can I still request ATC to vector me through the SID?

[Bradley Grafelman]

can I still request ATC to vector me through the SID?

What does "vector me through the SID" mean?

 

One of the main reasons printed procedures like SIDs and STARs exist in the first place is to eliminate the need for controllers to spoonfeed instructions one-by-one and instead place a bulk of information at pilot's fingertips. So, requesting vectors for each part of a SID/STAR seems counter-intuitive at best.

[Nicholas Cavacini]

You shouldn't need vectors for a SID or STAR. You can hand fly them but you should not need vectors if you file a procedure.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

if the reason is you dont know how to fly SID/STARS yet. the answer is simply, do not file the procedures nor accept them if ATC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns you one and let them know you do not know how to fly it. ATC will try and find another way to get you out

 

if its in your flightplan though, ATC expects you to fly it. so never put anything in your flightplan you dont intend to fly or are not able to follow

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Say for instance, my flight plan is KLAX GMN6 EHF LLC REO J537 ONEAL VUCAN THIRD3 CYYC {corrected to update procedure to current, and to list destination at end, as is more customary}. {...} do I need to fly this manually, using the GPS, or will ATC guide me through this with vectors?

There's another choice. This is not an RNAV procedure so it can be flown without GPS. Tune your NAV1 to the frequency of the VOR you're navigating with, and set the OBS ("course") needle to the radial indicated on the chart. Then follow the needle just like flying the localizer on an ILS. Once you get overtop the VOR, flip the autopilot into HDG mode, turn to the new outbound course as indicated on the chart, reset the OBS, and adjust as necessary to intercept the new course.

 

The only differences between following a VOR radial versus an ILS localizer: (1) the VOR course is adjustable, so you can set it to track any radial, whether or not it's one of the ones on the chart; (2) they're reversible, so they can track a course inbound to or outbound from the station; (3) the sensitivity is higher on a localizer than a VOR so it's more precise (same deviation shows greater deflection on the LOC than it does on the VOR).

 

If after all that you're still not comfortable flying that procedure, then don't include the procedure in your filed plan. The first thing in your flightplan should be the first VOR that you plan to fly to. It's good if that VOR is included in several of the airport's departure procedures, because that increases the chance that the Departure controllers can get you safely there without conflicting with traffic outside of their airspace. (In other words, your first VOR out of KLAX would not be OAK, for example.)

 

In fact, a lot of airports include a generic vectored departure procedure that automatically becomes part of your flightplan if you're not flying one of the routed departures. That procedure will include a random-seeming scattering of VORs and intersections, and one of them pretty much has to be your first waypoint in order for ATC to be able to work with it. Look at the PITTSBURGH 2 out of KPIT, or the LOGAN1 out of KBOS, for examples.