Duplicate CIDs: Asking for Too Much?

[GDPR-removed]

Greetings,

 

While I do have the ultimate respect for VATSIM's policies, I have recently come across some of VATSIM's staff asking me for too much in a recent duplicate account issue. While it was resolved, I came out of it learning that a lot was demanded out of me.

 

When my account was originally banned, it was because my cousin had an account prior to me. After opening a ticket with the Membership Department, I was given a response to provide a form of identification. This was something I didn't necessarily have an issue with. I thought that with my school report card or a student ID it would suffice. Besides, when a private organization like VATSIM asks for ID, I do take it with caution.

 

After the manager working the case basically denied my school report card, I decided to provide him with a student ID. After that, he said "I need something officially issued." He was asking for a driver's license, a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]port, or something similar. This was ridiculous. A student ID should've sufficed. Why dig so much?

 

It wasn't until I provided a state-issued ID that he finally decided to reinstate my account. My question is simply: Why do you demand a state or government issued ID? This isn't real world here. This isn't the RMV, where 3 forms of ID are demanded; it just isn't.

 

Moreover, I was off the network for quite a while during this time. My next question is why do you ban the account without first inquiring, and deal with the situation without having to suspend the account? It would be more beneficial to everyone involved.

 

That's my little rant. I'm posting this because I want no one to have to go through this whole process. Please, post your feedback below.

[Camden Bruno]

A student ID and/or report card is not an official form of identification. Just like any other organization requesting proof of identity, an official form of identification is required. Although this isn't the "real-world", the people using this network and who are a part of this community are real people. We need to ensure that we know the identity of our members for the safety and protection of all members.

 

If we've previously permanently banned a member who was found to be causing major issues and violating the rights of other members, we need to make sure you're not that person posing as another individual. The list of examples goes on.

 

My next question is why do you ban the account without first inquiring, and deal with the situation without having to suspend the account? It would be more beneficial to everyone involved.

I'll let Membership answer this part, as I have a general knowledge of why they go about it this way, but it'd be better hearing it from them and I don't wish to step on their toes.

 

I think you'll find the majority of people find this process reasonable, especially since the Membership department recognizes the need for personal privacy and allows you to redact any sensitive information on your ID. Our Membership department does a fantastic job of ensuring this community is safe from people who may cause problems - and this is one of the many ways they do so.

 

When my account was originally banned, it was because my cousin had an account prior to me.

 

Last but certainly not least, I find this story interesting, considering it directly contradicts the story you gave me when putting a transfer request in to Boston Virtual ARTCC. Perhaps this sheds a little light on why Membership does what they do, because people can so easily twist their stories and openly lie in an effort to try to gain access to a VATSIM account.

 

Regards,

[GDPR-removed]

Last but certainly not least, I find this story interesting, considering it directly contradicts the story you gave me when putting a transfer request in to Boston Virtual ARTCC. Perhaps this sheds a little light on why Membership does what they do, because people can so easily twist their stories and openly lie in an effort to try to gain access to a VATSIM account.

 

Don't take this as an opportunity to jump down my throat on what I thought was a matter between you and I. This incident was completely independent of, and neither contradicts, nor coincides with this matter. If you want to pick a fight with me over this, feel free to shoot me an email, rather than respond to this on the forums. Just because I kept this incident separate of my transfer request doesn't equal a contradiction. This is my one and only VATSIM account. The supposed "duplicate account" belonged to my cousin, but I got that squared away. I'll be happy to tell you more if you want, but that's for an email.

[Camden Bruno]

You had brought the reason for your account suspension onto a public forum, and I simply responded to said post on said public forum stating that your stories were not matching, relating specifically to my experience with you at Boston. You asked for feedback, so I was delivering said feedback.

 

I have no interest in "picking a fight", rather am giving insight on why it's so easy to distrust peoples statements. The same can be said when trusting a school ID or report card. These are not official and can be easily forged, therefore, cannot be trusted.

 

Take care,

[Callum McLoughlin]

You had brought the reason for your account suspension onto a public forum, and I simply responded to said post on said public forum stating that your stories were not matching, relating specifically to my experience with you at Boston. You asked for feedback, so I was delivering said feedback.

 

The general desire to police VATSIM really comes through in your posts. Anybody would think that you didn't want any more controllers in your area. I think the staff on this network can go very much over the top of what is reasonable for an organisation such as this. I understand that there are some bad eggs amongst a very large group of members, however the Supervisors and Membership Departments deal with that quietly, behind the scenes and confidentially.

 

In the capacity you write your replies, you volunteer as an ATM at the local level, your job is to welcome and facilitate new members in your area - not to start discrediting them publicly. When I fly, I'd like to see more members online flying and controlling. Irritating them by calling them out, no matter how valid (I don't know - but it's not the point I am making) should never be accepted. Especially from a Supervisor.

[GDPR-removed]

You had brought the reason for your account suspension onto a public forum, and I simply responded to said post on said public forum stating that your stories were not matching, relating specifically to my experience with you at Boston. You asked for feedback, so I was delivering said feedback.

 

I have no interest in "picking a fight", rather am giving insight on why it's so easy to distrust peoples statements. The same can be said when trusting a school ID or report card. These are not official and can be easily forged, therefore, cannot be trusted.

 

Take care,

 

So much for confidentiality on transfer requests. While I now have a better understanding because of what you noted outside of that statement, that last part was uncalled for. No one in the VATSIM community needs to know about a transfer request that I never even brought up in this topic. These were two different statements relating to two different situations, neither of which is false. It's that simple.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

to go back on topic, end of the day, its for your safety and ours. simple as that. anyone can create an account freely, but when those accounts get flagged, a little extra security is taken and as Camden mentioned, when providing such info there are parts you can black out that are sensitive. they dont need your social security number for example if its on a docomeent. but they do need an official ID to prove its you. anyone can fake other types of ID if they wanted to. official ones arent that easy to fake.

 

if simply protecting users is too much to ask, honestly there are plenty of other services available on the net one can enjoy just as fine

 

this isnt the only time a user may be asked for ID, but certainly one of the more common ones.

[Camden Bruno]

Jarid,

 

If you read my statement again, you may see that the transfer request was being used as a way of proving my overall point. I did not give any further information for a reason. Perhaps my attempt at answering your questions and providing feedback strayed off a tad too much and I apologize for any offense you may have taken.

--

Callum,

 

Thanks for your feedback. I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you that my overall desire is not to police VATSIM, as you claimed. I'm not sure how my posts reflected a lack of desire for more controllers in my area, no where did I state anything even close to that - feel free to clarify.

 

The "bad eggs" are just one example of why it's necessary to maintain the true identities of the individuals on this network. And the only way to confirm identity is through an official form of identification. The very nature of this post was revolving around identity and duplicate accounts, therefore, my example was meant to provide guidance on why it's handled that way. Again, for the safety and security of those who use this network. Or would we rather have a network filled with individuals using false identities?

 

I'm confused where you're coming from and what you feel is unreasonable. Your post seems to be focused more-so on me and my post, so i'm having trouble identifying whether you're responding to the question/concern presented by Jarid, or simply responding to me.

--

Ernesto, well said and thank you.

 

Regards,

[Andreas Fuchs]

I think that the OP's post just "smelled funny", especially in context with this transfer request. It puzzles me why some people find it so hard to provide some kind of positive identification. VATSIM is a little aviation club of honest people. We welcome everyone who has good intentions.

When an account gets flagged as a duplicate, then we investigate and make sure that we don't get our legs pulled. We are not interested in your p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]port number, size, religion, marital status. If you think that you still don't want to provide our membership department with the required docomeent, then fine, but you'll need to look for another club, it is your choice.

 

You are welcome for this honest explanation. Let's go flying or controlling instead of whining on the forums.

[Kyle Ramsey 810181]

As is so often the case there is more here than is seen in this post. I don't fault the OP, it probably looks that way to him and he uses language in imprecise ways that folks who have been around VATSIM for a while will infer differently. All that happened was this new CID was flagged as a duplicate to an older one.

 

When this occurs and the member says they haven't had an account before we are left with a few options, one is to ask for an official government ID and we do two things there; ask that any personal information beyond the name be hidden, and we don't keep a copy of it. As was the case here once the ID was provided, the discrepancy was cleared up and the account reinstated.

 

Way too often the duplicate account turns out to be a real duplicate so no, we think this very simple procedure provides us with the proof we need to ensure an individual isn't gaining a duplicate account.

 

And to be clear no account involved was ever banned, the system just detected a possible duplicate of an existing account and if it had been the member would have been directed and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]isted to re-establish their original account. This is the most common duplicate reason; member has been gone for a while, can't recall their old account so they make a new one. Membership detects that and helps them get their old account stood up again.

 

This is everyday business in VATSIM, nothing to see, move along.

[GDPR-removed]

Gents,

 

I want to say thank you for all of the information. Now, I have a much better understanding of the process of resolving this kind of issue.

 

"Whining" isn't the way I view this; rather, an opportunity to get this kind of issue addressed. I can truly understand the safety of all of VATSIM's members is a top priority. Things happen, but in the end we will get a resolution which will be in favor of all of VATSIM's existing membership.

 

From someone the likes of a supervisor, it can be hard that someone else doesn't know the identity requirements, which are just that easy to understand. From the outside looking in, it's difficult to understand, but now I get the idea.

 

I was speaking as a concerned member of VATSIM. By making the process more clear to me and the expectations set in place for everyone else, you've all given me what I was looking for.

 

All drama aside, I have gotten the answer I was looking for, and I thank you all for your input.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Fine then, Jarid. Welcome (back) to VATSIM and enjoy your time online with us all. I hope you will have a terrific time simulating aviation with great people all over!

[Removed]

The public forum, though I understand that there is an interest in gaining and sharing information, is not the best location to discuss personal membership related matters. There are avenues to discuss these matters in private, usually via e-mail with the responsible department staff.

 

Every member contacting the Membership Department seeking [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istance is helped to the furthest extent possible and over the past several months the Membership Department has become very active and responds to member help requests usually within less than 24 hours.

 

Apart from helping literally several hundred members each month, the Membership Department is further tasked with ensuring member compliance with membership related sections of VATSIM policies.

 

As VATSIM President Kyle Ramsey stated, this is everyday business on VATSIM.

[Christopher Flett 1349312]

Sounds a bit like Extortion to me

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Under the Common Law, extortion is a misdemeanor consisting of an unlawful taking of money by a government officer. It is an oppressive misuse of the power with which the law clothes a public officer. Most jurisdictions have statutes governing extortion that broaden the common-law definition. Under such statutes, any person who takes money or property from another by means of illegal compulsion may be guilty of the offense.

 

Even under the "broader" definition, what property was taken, because certainly no money was taken?

 

Another definition you might be interested in...

 

New York Times Co. v. Sullivan Decision. Even when all the statements in a publication are factually correct and, at least standing alone, are not defamatory, courts have treated the publication as actionable under the rubric of "implied libel".

 

Randy

[Christopher Flett 1349312]

Extortion is the means of obtaining something (usually money) through force or threats.

 

In this case a user is pretty much being threatened that if they don't present the right identification then they won't be able to use the network. Identification that, that user feels may be stolen or misused inappropriately even though there may be a policy on privacy and use of confidential information.

[Nicholas Cavacini]

No, it is nowhere close to extortion. This is a private network. You agree to the policies and procedures or you simply are not permitted to participate. Simple as that.

 

In the US, many states say that driving is contingent on agreeing to a blood sample if asked. Again, that is not extortion. It is a requirement in order to exercise a privilege.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

lol back to virtual law school you go

 

while you are at it, reread the terms of service, which by the way are required reading BEFORE you join. not after. same as all those other contracts, etc.. people dont bother reading then complain later that they didnt know. duh cause they dont bother reading.

[Norman Blackburn]

Given the armchair lawyers have woken, its time to sing a lullaby and close the door gently.