Ways to start Vatsim?

[Bradley Grafelman]

b) Fire up Simbrief, take the last route someone entered between your departure and destination, download an FMS file for your aircraft, load it, take off, press CMD A and watch the aeroplane follow the pink string all the way to your destination before setting you up on a nice 10 mile or so ILS final where you press APP and wait for the aeroplane to land itself

Unfair comparison; you're comparing the simulation of VFR flight versus the simulation of a glorified button-pusher. Downloading a pre-made FMS package and pushing some buttons is not a simulation of IFR flight.

 

Yes, VFR flight is more complex than "monkey see, monkey do."

[Dace Nicmane]

This isn't a contest about who has the shortest conversation. People don't come to VATSIM with the goal of having the least possible interaction with ATC. Even so, you're completely ignoring that to have the shortest conversation, you need to know not only what to say, but also what NOT to say and to whom NOT to talk. You already have that knowledge, that's why you say it's easy, but others don't.

I can likewise say that the IFR flight's communications are the most logical and routine: clearance, pushback/startup, taxi, takeoff, climb, descent etc. Whatever the ATC tells you, read back and execute. Piece of cake! But as I said, what is easy for a particular person depends on their previous experience (even indirect experience of watching others etc.).

You're also ignoring the other difficulties I mentioned with VFR flying, like navigating with the whole world squeezed into a 27'' or whatever screen and incomplete scenery. I'm not familiar with VFR in USA, but in Europe, you have to fly specific VFR departure/arrival routes in and out of the airport and report to ATC over mandatory visual reporting points. So if you can't spot or keep track of that railway that you're supposed to be on the South side of when departing, you're screwed, because there are arrivals coming on the North side of the railway in the opposite direction, and you can't report to ATC you're over Mike because you're lost.

Another thing that was mentioned was that in VFR flight it is mostly the pilot who has to initiate communication and he/she has to give a lot of information to the controller. It can be a HUGE problem for a newbie who isn't confident about ATC comms (especially voice) or about what they're doing.

Lastly, your sarcasm is completely uncalled for. There are people who like airliners and will never fly a light aircraft on VATSIM, and they're not required to, so get over it. Your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umptions that they're therefore incompetent are ungrounded and disrespectful.

[Morgan Conington]

Guys, I appreciate all the help that I have been given, and has made me more confident for my first flight on VATsim and has given me a sense of direction and reliable resources. As a beginner these offers and knowledge are extremely helpful, and I thought this has been a very productive forum. Also the tips on flying VFR or IFR have been very helpful, thank you. However if you need to create a new topic, "IFR v VFR" you are more than welcome as I am not sure some of the recent replies have been related to tips and resources regarding starting VATsim.

Anyways, thanks for all the help, I can't wait to get flying

Morgan

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Morgan,

 

Glad you're getting help from these posts...for the most part.

 

Pretty sure now that Andrew has you under his wing you'll do fine. Just don't let him convince you that the "Land of Oz" is the only way to go...

 

The pros and cons to VFR vs IFR are many and you'll seldom see a true consensus here in the forums. Each contributor here has made valid points of their own take on "what is best" and you may seldom find that what is "best" for them is "best" for you. Take each and apply the information to what suits you.

 

Again, welcome to VATSIM. You're gonna love it.

 

Randy

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

Thank you one and all for your responses...

 

I can see I *have* missed a memo. As several folks have clearly pointed out, the easiest course to be a VATsim "pilot" is to program an FMC (in whatever plane you have one in) and let if fly the plane around. Got it... and Dace, as a pilot that *is* incompetent -- in the sense of lacking knowledge, skills and proficiency for flying an airplane.

 

Regarding ATC, it doesn't matter VFR / IFR - both cases you have to know what to say, and to whom you should say it... There's simply a lot less of it with VFR.

 

@Andrew: With all due respect, did you read my example? It was flown in a Cessna...IFR... In my brief VATsim career, I've flown exactly *one* airliner - the default FSX 737. I've flown IFR on VATsim in that (of course), but also in C172, Mooney Bravo, Lear 45 and the F18 -- and *all* of those IFR flights have been /A non-RNAV. I am most definitely *not* making the IFR [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that you seem to think I am. What I am *seeing* here however, is that the bulk of "pilots" seem to prefer the cut & paste route with a programmed FMC, and then sitting back and discovering wherever it is the plane takes them... I've got it, this is a hobby, so as far as it goes, that is just peachy if that is what they think of as "flying".

 

I think a "pilot" is something else entirely. I think it is a person who can actually fly the airplane, not just tell a glorified hand calculator "take me to Denver" and pat themselves on the back for how well they can point and click a handful of buttons.

 

Which brings me to my next point - Dace, the motor skills needed to manually fly an ILS approach in your jumbo jet are the same ones needed to fly a Piper Cub over to the Fly-in Jamboree - simple throttle, elevator, ailerons and rudder skills. There's a big difference insisting they "can't" fly a Cessna vs they don't "want" to fly it. I don't want to drive a Prius, but because I can drive the car I currently drive *also* means I have the ability to drive that Prius ... if need be. So, your point that "maybe they can manually fly their airliner but can't fly a Cessna" simply put, is disingenuous ... unless what you consider "flying" is pushing a handful of buttons, sitting back and just watching your screen for two hours. If you find that insulting, so be it.

 

@Bradley: Thank You -- That is exactly my point. If a pilot wants solely to be a button pusher, that is indeed pretty simple, and in this environment, it's perfectly fine and acceptable. If they actually want to learn about piloting - that's a different thing altogether. Once a person gets to *that* point, they will almost certainly discover that there's much more to learn for IFR than VFR aviation.

 

What I'm discovering here however, is that apparently, that isn't what the bulk of pilots actually do, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming Trent's 50 guys (who can't be bothered to pull up a chart, but rather just push a bunch of buttons) are as representative of the community as he appears to believe. Frankly, if that's true, I find that rather disappointing.

 

So, as I said in my first line - Thanks for the responses. I think I may have learned more here than Morgan has, insofar, as what appears to constitute the average "pilot" on the network...

 

Regards,

Jim

[Dace Nicmane]

I can see I *have* missed a memo. As several folks have clearly pointed out, the easiest course to be a VATsim "pilot" is to program an FMC (in whatever plane you have one in) and let if fly the plane around. Got it... and Dace, as a pilot that *is* incompetent -- in the sense of lacking knowledge, skills and proficiency for flying an airplane.

 

Well, first, I don't recall ever saying that programming the FMC is the only thing the pilot should do. I already explained to you that it doesn't work that way. Just programming the FMC is not enough to fly an airliner, so please stop repeating that nonsense.

 

Second, contrary to your idea about the FMC as a "toy", using it requires knowledge. If somebody is able to correctly program the FMC and take full advantage of its capabilities, it means he or she is competent, at least in this regard. Whether you like it or not, FMC is part of a modern airliner's systems and it was developed for a reason. How else are you supposed to find the fixes, if you don't program the route? As much as you hate those buttons, they're there for pushing, not looking at. Perhaps you should get one of those planes you moan about so that you see just how much information is in the FMC and how much knowledge is actually required to use it successfully.

 

Third, your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that owning a PMDG 777 and knowing how to use its FMC means the pilot can't fly manually (this aircraft or another one) is just plain ridiculous. How do you know they can't?

 

And even if some people can't, what do you care? Everyone learns in their own way and at their own pace, but people need to start somewhere. So what if somebody's pushing buttons only? Does he hurt you? You don't have to deal with him, so mind your own business.

 

Which brings me to my next point - Dace, the motor skills needed to manually fly an ILS approach in your jumbo jet are the same ones needed to fly a Piper Cub over to the Fly-in Jamboree - simple throttle, elevator, ailerons and rudder skills. There's a big difference insisting they "can't" fly a Cessna vs they don't "want" to fly it.

 

And flying an airplane isn't just the motor skills of manipulating the yoke, pedals and throttle, either. Knowing how to fly a plane means knowing the whole of the plane (including the autopilot and FMC, if it has one). If the airliner pilot has never sat in a Cessna cockpit and isn't familiar with the instrument layout, doesn't know how to start it, doesn't know about the torque effect, doesn't know its takeoff/landing/flap speeds, doesn't know what the autopilot can or can't do, doesn't know how to handle the mixture controls (or what it is, indeed), doesn't know the gear doesn't retract, doesn't know how to use the CDI, and so on, then no, he "can't" pilot the plane, as simple as it may be. But more importantly, it doesn't matter whether he "can't" or "doesn't want to". What matters is that he doesn't fly it, and it's his choice that you don't want to respect for some reason.

[Ernesto Alvarez 818262]

as you can see, nobody agrees on whats easier for newbies. some of us have our own opinions, but end of the day, go with whatever is easier for you. all we ask is you be prepared accordingly

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

as you can see, nobody agrees on whats easier for newbies. some of us have our own opinions, but end of the day, go with whatever is easier for you. all we ask is you be prepared accordingly

Indeed. That point has become painfully clear.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Andrew Ogden]

Ok, Morgan and I are going to be doing some flying and I'll be teaching him basic VATSIM stuff at 9am Saturday BST. Should be a lot of fun!

[Camden Bruno]

I just wanted to thank all of those who have supported programs like Boston's within this thread. And, of course, props to Morgan for reaching out for advice to ensure you're ready to fly. Pilots such as yourself who are interested and excited to learn are who make this network what it is.

 

If anyone has any questions regarding the programs at Boston, feel free to reach out to me directly at [email protected].

 

Best,

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Whilst I wholly agree with you that a proficient IFR pilot certainly does need to know about MEAs, OCAs, minima and so on, if you follow the pink string then 99% of the time you don't need to know it and I will put it to you that most of even the most proficient VATSIM IFR pilots probably don't know this stuff.

As someone who has been coaching VATSIM pilots through Pilot Rating curriculum for two years now, I can attest that this is true. At VATSTAR we were initially surprised at how many pilots with hundreds or even thousands of hours of successful flight hours simulating commercial airline flights didn't know many of the basics of flight theory or procedure. It now surprises me when I find a virtual pilot who knows what angle of attack and turn coordination mean.

As I say, almost all of my flying now is with students doing the P2/P3 course. Many of them are very experienced and competent IFR airline flyers capable of handling almost anything on the network up to and including the very biggest events. But put them in a C172 and ask them to point out a town, or tell you where they are, or where the base of the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A is, or do a standard overhead join, or request a zone transit, and many of them do not know where to start. The good news is that most of them have a lot of fun learning, come away from the course with a new appreciation for VFR flying and go on to do much more GA flying on the network!

Hear here!