Ways to start Vatsim?

[Morgan Conington]

Hi,

to start off I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum, I know being new is not an excuse for this

As you can see i'm new to Vatsim and I'm desperate to start flying on Vatsim. However I want to do it correctly

I have watched many videos but have come to the forums to try and ask for some advice or answers....

How did you start VATSIM, did you start flying GA flights or go straight to an airliner... are there any specific videos I should watch? I have read the Pilot recourse centre backwards, but i'm a visual learner

So just any advice or stories that can help me out will be appriciated!

Thanks

Morgan

[Lindsey Wiebe 1101951]

Hi Morgan,

 

Welcome aboard!

 

Check these out for a starter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZI3cqkNuM Matt Davies aka Belynz did a series on starting out.

[Morgan Conington]

Thanks for the reply Lindsey ,

I have watched these videos and they have helped. However i'm looking for some information that's more personal such as what should you start flying first

Thanks again

Morgan

[Nicholas Cavacini]

Hi Morgan! Thanks for coming by and asking. The best advice as to how to start out is to choose a quieter airfield that has a tower or approach online. That way, the controller is more able to help you get started. Don't load up at KJFK or another large airport, espicially during a busy period with only approach online and expect that the controller will be able to help you.

 

As far as aircraft, that is completely up to you, however, since you are new and learning, it would help to fly in a simpler aircraft. Don't load up your first time and expect to be successful flying a complex aircraft that requires all of your attention. VFR or IFR, again up to you. The procedures for each are much different and while VFR is much simpler, IFR is what comprises much of the traffic. Not to say that VFR is discouraged. Just don't expect to fly an airliner on a cross country flight at FL300 under VFR rules.

Edited May 1, 2017 at 06:58 PM by Guest

[Lindsey Wiebe 1101951]

Thanks for the reply Lindsey ,

I have watched these videos and they have helped. However i'm looking for some information that's more personal such as what should you start flying first

Thanks again

Morgan

 

Ahh gotcha, as Nicholas says start small. I'd suggest just using the C172 as it's simple and slow enough to allow you to catch up. As for location, I'm not sure where you are from, but as Nicholas mentioned don't start at JFK, LAX, BOS, ATL, etc as it will overwhelm you and frustrate the controller. The best bet I would suggest is somewhere like KSAN (San Diego California), or KBDL (Bradley, outside Boston), these often have controllers as they seem to be feeder airports for new controllers as well, but aren't horribly busy. They will also get you close enough to the bigger airports to experience it. For instance you could fly KSAN to KSNA (John Wayne, just outside LAX) short enough to get used to it but not too long to bore you. Often you'll talk to the same controller as the pilots going into LAX but not be in their way. If Seattle centre is open you could go PDX, Portland to Seattle, or YVR Vancouver, Canada (where I'm at so partial to it) down to Seattle. You could always look over at www.Vatstar.com and join there, they do vatsim instruction, free of charge; some people like flying, some like controlling, some even like teaching!

[Morgan Conington]

Hi Again Lindsey,

Thanks again for your help, this information has helped m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ively and I will check out everything you mentioned.

Thanks for your time, as a new pilot you don't comprehend how much I appreciate you sharing your knowledge

Morgan

[Morgan Conington]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, I will take your advice to try and get as much experience as possible

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

Hi Morgan.

 

Welcome aboard.

 

The advice given above is excellent. I can add the approach I used when I started (about a year ago).

 

The first thing I'd want to stress for VATSIM is review the basic rules -- about not starting on a runway or taxiway, and what the basic procedures are... For the most part, it's just a little bit of pretty simple reading, and it's really common sense kind of stuff, but you know the old adage: "Common Sense isn't all that common"

 

The second main thing I'd really stress is to know how to fly your particular plane(s) beforehand, offline. You're going to be a little nervous and stressed (initially) with trying to talk to controllers and do things right, so if you're not comfortable hand flying your plane as well, it'll be a daunting experience.

 

At the minimum, know the primary gauges (Altitude, Heading, Airspeed) and be able to consistently fly level, on a particular heading, at a given altitude and airspeed. You'll also need to know how to tune the radio, so you can talk to the right controllers. Then, if a controller says "Lear123 (or whatever your plane is), turn left to 320 degrees, climb and maintain 8000 feet", you should be able to manually handle that -- if you can, you'll be good to go for about 80% (or more) of your initial flying.

 

Again, that's pretty simple stuff that can be handled with a little bit of practice in whatever plane you fly, be it a Piper Cub, a 747-400, or an F18 Hornet. When you decide to fly different planes, be sure to get that practice in on each ahead of time -- it will make everything go a LOT easier for everyone.

 

You *don't* need to know every system on the plane, or be an "expert" on it, but at least be able to do the basics, preferably, manually. Autopilots and FMCs are great for longer haul flights, or complicated / precision procedures, and you'll definitely use them more often as you progress, but they should be add-ons, not substitutes (imho) for doing "some of that Pilot sh*t, Mav".

 

When I started, I made my first 3 or 4 flights in the default FSX Cessna, and since I didn't know how to read Instrument charts, SID's STARS, or any of that fancy-shmancy stuff, I just flew VFR initially, from some mid-size airports... I talked to a couple Center controllers, got "Flight Following" service a few times, spoke with a couple Tower controllers, made plenty of text announcements on Unicom, and generally got my feet wet, so to speak.

 

After that, I started flying some of the specific flights that a couple of the ARTCC's offer (notably Boston) to start working on the pilot ratings. I did the early ones in the Mooney Bravo (a new plane to me, so I practiced with it awhile first), and since those flights *required* talking to controllers, I got quite a bit more experience that way -- without exception, ALL of the controllers I talked to were very helpful and considerate (it probably helped having "Newbie" in my flight plan remarks), and they helped make it a very pleasant (if challenging) experience.

 

After having done several of those flights, I then registered with VATSTAR to work towards the other ratings (although you *can* do most of them with Boston's program as well), and that got me up to speed with all those charts and things I couldn't read or understand earlier.

 

Doing those activities built up a couple dozen hours of flight experience, and earned several of the pilot ratings (P1-P4). At that point, I'd been on VATSIM for 2-3 months, and I felt comfortable enough to start flying some of my own "imaginary projects" and continue moving forward. Just to be clear though, pilot ratings are *not* required. That said, working towards them gave me reasons to fly, reasons to talk to ATC, and helped add both knowledge and experience, both in flying in general, and in VATSIM in particular. They're well worth getting (if you're so inclined).

 

I'm certain that not everyone will approach it that way, but I'm pretty sure that these points will definitely help quite a bit:

 

1> Learn at least the basic VATSIM rules

2> Know how to (manually) fly whatever planes you want to use in VATSIM, at least in the basics.

3> Start simple, and work your way forward as you gain more experience

4> Don't be shy about asking questions

 

Hope that helps!

 

Regards,

Jim

[Randy Tyndall 1087023]

Welcome to the virtual world that is VATSIM Morgan. We all think you're gonna love it.

 

Excellent advice from Jim Hurst. Being able to control your aircraft and manually responding to controllers' instructions if necessary is critical at the beginning stages of your experience.

 

I myself started out over eight years ago flying, like Jim, the default Cessna from Boise (KBOI) to Twin Falls (KTWF). Both were in Salt Lake Center's airspace and I flew back and forth and back, as Jim said, sometimes talking to Center, every once in a while Approach, and rarely, but once in a while as well, Tower.

 

I stayed with the defaults until I knew them well enough to go farther and then moved on to more complicated freeware and realistic payware. It's been a fantastic eight year ride and it ain't over yet.

 

Again, Welcome.

 

Randy

[Dace Nicmane]

VFR is much simpler

I wouldn't say VFR is simpler, it depends on what you know already and what you're used to. What is simpler is the systems in a light aircraft, but of course you have to be good with manual flying, and what is easier is the slower speed which gives you more time to think. However, VFR in a simulator can be challenging because the view is limited and scenery is not what you'd see in real life (which also makes it much less enjoyable to fly VFR in the first place). Of course, IFR in the same light aircraft with old-fashioned instruments will be more complicated than VFR, but easier in an airliner with an FMS, if you know how to use it. I'd also say, being vectored by ATC is easier than figuring out on your own how to join the correct downwind for a particular runway from where you are now, or flying a VFR departure/arrival based on landmarks that may or may not exist in your scenery. VFR requires understanding of airspace cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es and good situational awareness to not bust them, careful planning and study of charts (VFR sectionals are notoriously the most cluttered and daunting). Also, VFR aircraft have to make rather long calls, stating aircraft type, position, intentions etc. I don't mean to scare anybody or put them off VFR flying, but I've flown VFR (not on VATSIM) and it's not simple and actually requires a great deal of knowledge and practice. Many pilots are more familiar with IFR phraseology and procedures through listening to liveATC, watching Air Crash Investigations, VATSIM controller and pilot streams etc. Of course, you can always find an uncontrolled airport/airspace but that's probably not why you came to VATSIM.

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

Interesting viewpoint, Dace.

 

Personally, I'm with Nicholas in feeling that VFR is much simpler. I do agree with you that it can also hinge a bit upon what you know, but in US airspace, the basic "rules" distill down pretty simply.

 

While simplified, if you follow these you *won't* break anything too seriously... Of course, some of these avoidances (ie Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B) are actually allowed with appropriate clearance, but unless you *need* to go there, you can easily avoid them. Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D you'll need to enter to land or depart most towered airports, but that's pretty easy too. Otherwise, just keep these 5 in mind, and you'll be fine:

 

1. Stay Below 18,000 ft MSL (Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A) and keep your airspeed <= 250 knots below 10,000 MSL

 

2. Above 3000 AGL, use VFR altitudes (On 0-179 degree track = Odd thousands + 500 feet, 180-359 degree track = Even thousands +500 feet). Below 3000 AGL, pick whatever altitude you like (that keeps you from crashing into things)

 

3. Looking at a VFR sectional chart (ie. skyvector.com) stay out of any blue circles (Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B) around major cities (in many cases you can also fly under parts of them), and any blue squares, rectangles, and similar, which mark Restricted Airspace. VATsim for the most part doesn't worry much about the latter (or MOAs either), so those probably are less of a deal than busting Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A or B airspace.

 

4. Fly over, or around, purple or dotted blue circles (Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or D space around airports) most of which don't go up above 10000 ft for C, and ~3000-4000 ft for D. The VFR chart will tell you the actual number. If your destination IS one of those airports, see point #5.

 

5. If there are controllers responsible for your area, or at your airport, you need to talk to them to be cleared to takeoff or land -- that's also true for IFR as well (the VATSIM PRC will help you sort out who to talk to and what to say). For Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C (purple) and Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D (dotted blue) you need to "establish two way communications" with controllers to enter that airspace. If there aren't any controllers responsible for your area, you only need announce your intentions in text on Unicom (ie. taxiing, departing, inbound, landing pattern positions and landing)

 

That's pretty much it -- you don't have to talk to another soul, and as long as you stay in the proper airspace, you can fly wherever you want, by whatever route you feel like. As for scenery, that certainly varies anywhere between non-descript to photoreal. That said, even in default FSX you can navigate just fine using pilotage and a VFR sectional -- certainly, most sizeable cities, lakes, interstate highways, mountains, and similar are visible and identifiable (if not in exacting detail), and if you want to "cheat", nobody is going to say "Boo" if you put your destination in your GPS as a direct route. You still need to skirt any airspace that route might go through that you shouldn't be in, but you won't get lost.

 

You can also, if you want, use VOR's and NDB's if you've learned how to work with them -- or not... it's totally optional (but useful knowledge to have).

 

 

Now, I'll completely concede that IFR *might* be easier if:

 

1> Your scenery, fixes, and navaids are up to date

2> You can download an arbitrary route into your GPS

3> You have (and understand) an FMS and program it properly to execute your flight (of course you might check with the ZLA guys about FMSes and the pesky LOOPx departure)

4> Your aircraft can autoland on an ILS.

 

You still need to deal with all the ATC interaction (much moreso than VFR guys), but if steps 1-4 are ok, the airplane will quite literally fly you to your destination... Of course, a taxi or train would also get you there as easily at that point.

 

If however, you don't have an FMC (as is the case in default FSX), and/or you have only default scenery, you'll need substantially more information to successfully fly IFR -- even in US. Most modern routes won't work in that case (if you update your install with Herve's updates you can mitigate that). You'll need to understand the use of VOR's to remain on airways, and you'll need to know proper flight altitudes, just like VFR needs to know), you'll need to know which airways you can use (Jet or Victor, or Q etc.), and you'll need to understand SIDs, STARs, and at minimum, standard ILS approaches (although even some FSX planes can autofly those down to minimums).

 

So, which is easier does depend on what you have installed in your game, and what you know, but imho, if you're flying vanilla FSX airplanes on vanilla scenery, VFR is a lot easier (I can't speak to P3D or Xplane, not having used them).

 

In any case, that is an interesting question, and one which every virtual pilot will need to consider and answer for themselves.

 

 

Regards,

Jim

[Dace Nicmane]

No need to be sarcastic about FMS-equipped aircraft.

 

You seem to have a wrong idea about how they are flown.

 

You don't fly on LNAV + VNAV all the way from departure to arrival airport. If it's a vectored departure, you fly in HDG mode first and wait for ATC instructions. At the arrival airport, there are even more vectors. You can't fly vectors with FMC.

 

The route can be programmed in the FMC manually (probably in GPS as well, I've no experience with GPS).

 

Autoland or not, doesn't depend on flight rules. ILS doesn't equal autoland. And in the USA, controllers give visual approaches to IFR aircraft whenever the weather permits.

 

Other than that, nice tips. I'll have to do some VFR flying, just for a change.

[Morgan Conington]

Thank you so much for your reply Jim, you don't understand how much I value your effort into each of your posts, as a new pilot every word counts I agree with everything you say and have taken in every thing you said into consideration. As I'm a new pilot I thought I would stick to IFR now in my little A2A C172 dreaming about every A320 as I go past one But in all seriousness do you know any sources (apart from the recourse centre and VATSTAR) where I can find out basic things like an IFR flight in a Cessna or how to fly sids and approach charts manually using VORS and ADF dials. Also without being cheekey do you know an alternative to Navigraph? I am a student and just simply can't afford the amount they are asking for but still need charts to fly?

Thanks again for your help I appreciate it m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ively.

Morgan

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

Thank you so much for your reply Jim, you don't understand how much I value your effort into each of your posts, as a new pilot every word counts I agree with everything you say and have taken in every thing you said into consideration. As I'm a new pilot I thought I would stick to IFR now in my little A2A C172 dreaming about every A320 as I go past one But in all seriousness do you know any sources (apart from the recourse centre and VATSTAR) where I can find out basic things like an IFR flight in a Cessna or how to fly sids and approach charts manually using VORS and ADF dials. Also without being cheekey do you know an alternative to Navigraph? I am a student and just simply can't afford the amount they are asking for but still need charts to fly?

Thanks again for your help I appreciate it m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ively.

Morgan

 

Hi Morgan.

 

Sure. How does "free" sound to you? If you're flying in North America, it's pretty easy.

 

Obviously, you need the VATsim software (vPilot is great, and Ross Carlson is actively keeping it updated and improving).

 

For Charts & Navigation: skyvector.com is a piece of cake, and you can see just about everything you need, from VFR charts, IFR Enroute Charts, Airport Diagrams, Approaches, SID's and STARs ... the works. The basic VFR & IFR charts cover the world, but the airport stuff is (mostly) for USA. I think UK is in there now as well, but I've not ventured there (online) as yet.

 

I also like airnav.com for (easier to read / use - imho) US airport charts & procedures.

 

For Canada, fltplan.com has the charts for their airports (it does require you to register, but using it is free).

 

For making flight plans that you can import directly into FSX there is vRoute, or a PC program that I like Plan-G (which will let you use all the existing navaids in FSX). It's simple to use, and you can easily export and load the whole plan into your FSX GPS, and off you go...

 

Many of the ARTCC's have updated (& free) scenery for many of the airports they control, but you can also find freeware scenery (of varying quality) on several sites (avsim, simviation, etc.). Again, most of that is free, but they usually require a registration.

 

There's also a gracious fellow out there (Herve' Sors) who updates navaids, fixes and such for FSX, if you decide you do need / want to update FSX to be more current -- I don't have the link handy, and I've not updated my FSX with them yet, but it's pretty easy to find in this forum if you look, and everything I've heard about it is encouraging.

 

If you want to see RL routes being used (mostly by airliners), skyvector.com and flightaware.com can help you there as well... These days, they're often RNAV routes, which are problematic in the default FSX, but it's not too hard to adapt them to non-RNAV flying (or, use them directly if you've applied Mr. Sors' updates to your FSX).

 

There are several choices to see who's on in VATsim, notably VATspy, VATaware, and vattastic (among others) if you want to find out where the controllers are lurking.

 

As far as *learning* all those procedural things, I mentioned two in my first post -- Boston's ARTCC has "pre-canned" flights that you can do at your own pace and leisure, under watchful eyes of controllers. Each of those flights has briefing material you can read to learn the various pieces that are important to that particular flight. As previously mentioned, you can also qualify for VATsim's various pilot ratings by doing them as well.

 

VATSTAR is a full service ATO that offers courses and instruction for ALL the currently available pilot ratings (P1-P5), and an additional course for Oceanic operations. Their material is more in-depth than the flights that Boston offers, but they both cover the material you need. Both are free, but registration is required.

 

There are also numerous publications on the web covering that material as well -- but keep in mind there are some significant (and potentially confusing) differences between RL aviation and VATsim aviation (most notably the Top-Down ATC coverage model VATsim uses - by necessity, and Unicom text for nearly everything else).

 

FSX itself also has a number of missions / lessons that cover a lot of the basics of flight, VFR & IFR procedures and techniques as well. That's actually a pretty good place to start as you don't require *anything* else to do them. They can certainly be a helpful introduction to the concepts.

 

Finally, of course, there are all of us desk-jockey pilots who are also happy to answer questions as well.

 

In short, the virtual sky is your oyster (once you find some tools to help crack it open).

 

 

Regards,

Jim

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

No need to be sarcastic about FMS-equipped aircraft.

 

You seem to have a wrong idea about how they are flown.

 

You don't fly on LNAV + VNAV all the way from departure to arrival airport. If it's a vectored departure, you fly in HDG mode first and wait for ATC instructions. At the arrival airport, there are even more vectors. You can't fly vectors with FMC.

 

The route can be programmed in the FMC manually (probably in GPS as well, I've no experience with GPS).

 

Autoland or not, doesn't depend on flight rules. ILS doesn't equal autoland. And in the USA, controllers give visual approaches to IFR aircraft whenever the weather permits.

 

Other than that, nice tips. I'll have to do some VFR flying, just for a change.

 

Hi Dace,

 

I wasn't trying to offend. If it came across that way, please accept my apologies. It was really more "tongue in cheek".

 

Afaik, you can also go direct to fixes with most FMS's I'm aware of - and then resume your programmed automatic route from there again. Additionally, flying vectors (manually) and then switching to the automated flight plan takes little more than two or three clicks -- even in the default FSX planes ([Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming the plan is already in your GPS), and switching between auto mode and manual mode is only one click after that.

 

One of your points about VFR was the need for "manually flying" the plane with some proficiency. Well, imho, manually flying an ILS approach is distinctly trickier than simple level, altitude, and heading flight under VFR rules, so, while I concur that autoland is *not* a requirement of ILS rules, I submit that if a pilot struggles with manually flying under normal VFR, I don't like their odds of manually flying an ILS properly or a Visual approach either.

 

In any case, the topic can certainly be debated in more depth, if need be, but the point I was trying to make that VFR flying is really pretty simple in the US, if you stay out of Restricted, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A or B airspace, and be sure to talk to a controller (if online) should you need to deal with a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C or D towered airport. For non-towered ones, you don't even *need* to talk to a controller at all -- just announce appropriately on Unicom and go.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

PS> Obviously, the P3 covers quite a bit more than that, mostly in the areas of weather rules, METARS / TAFs, fuel planning, VFR sectional charts and some additional navigation concepts, but in the essentials, it's pretty straightforward.

[Trent Hopkinson]

I'd submit for discussion that the standard airliner "point to point" type flying in A B & C cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] airspace is easier than the ATC interactions lower altitude, smaller airport flights have in D, E and G airspace (ok, G airspace is the easiest of all, but leaving G to enter other cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es needs different interactions, some of which are quite complex, and need to be done while airborne, and where there is often a time/distance/altitude limit you need to initiate the contact by which wasn't explicitly told to you)

 

Point to Point in CTA to cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C and above airspace in Radar coverage is simply as easy as asking for an airways/flightplan clearance while your engines are off and you are sitting on the ground, then reading back and complying with all the instructions till you are once again, sitting on the ground at your destination. Every ATC interaction after the initial contact is instructed to you by ATC ([Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming it's say, an event and all positions are manned without any Unicom arrivals etc).

 

"Delivery, ABC123 requesting clearance to destination" and from there on every frequency change and clearance limit is given to you.

 

However departing a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G CTAF to fly through C (or even B) cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] airspace to a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D tower... VFR, especially if you only contact ATC to enter the controlled airspace, then leave controlled airspace again before heading to the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D tower? yeah, that requires a lot of Pilot initiating the initial contact with the controllers while airborne. And often times there's a requirement to obtain a clearance to proceed past a certain area the pilot needs to have checked/planned in advance. ie: At 5500ft, you need to contact _APP before proceeding past 45DME (example only, based on Sydney YSSY in Australia)

 

or, the VFR Lane of Entry starts at such-and-such visual reporting point, and you need clearance from _APP to proceed beyond that point (and if you don't get clearance before then, circling may be required).

 

But knowing how to use your aircraft, especially to change the route to add/change SID/STAR's, track direct to waypoints both on and off the flightplan, fly an approach, fly a heading, descend and climb both with the VNAV and off the VNAV profile, change speed both with the FMS or without it as a mach number or knots (and how to change between those units) and how to turn the autopilot off and remain in stable flight, or land with the yoke/rudder/throttle (mouse? ) are where you want to be regardless of the type of flying you are doing. Of course if you're flying VFR, then knowing where to get, and how to read, visual navigation charts (Skyvector has the USA covered) and what kind of requirements there are to traverse different areas, when to contact ATC and what info they will need... and possibly how to make time estimates for distances based on speed/distance.

 

 

Each type of flying builds skills in flight planning, chart and resource gathering/understanding and radio telephony, and ideally we'd all learn a bit of both. But I'd suggest starting out trying to concentrate on being sure you are able to fly your aircraft - and navigate it on the fly (literally) and then add the ATC elements in once you are at least comfortable turning, and tracking the flightplan you file.

Also understand that "Track direct to [place on your flightplan] is relatively common and often used as a separation tool by ATC (to give you a shortcut, means the guy behind you doesn't have to slow down etc)

[Dace Nicmane]

One of your points about VFR was the need for "manually flying" the plane with some proficiency. Well, imho, manually flying an ILS approach is distinctly trickier than simple level, altitude, and heading flight under VFR rules, so, while I concur that autoland is *not* a requirement of ILS rules, I submit that if a pilot struggles with manually flying under normal VFR, I don't like their odds of manually flying an ILS properly or a Visual approach either.

It may be that a pilot knows how to fly airliners only (including manually). And if you're flying an airliner, your flight rules are pretty much decided.

Not everyone who is new to VATSIM, is new to flight simulation in general.

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

It may be that a pilot knows how to fly airliners only (including manually). And if you're flying an airliner, your flight rules are pretty much decided.

Not everyone who is new to VATSIM, is new to flight simulation in general.

So, you're telling me that he can *only* handle a 75 TON airplane well enough to hand fly an instrument or visual approach manually, but he can't handle a 1500 pound Cessna ??? Really ??? You don't suppose that 10 minutes of offline practice could solve this little conundrum? Okie Dokie. I can see we're done here (and this time, I believe some sarcasm *is* warranted)...

 

@Trent

We're getting more than a little far afield here considering we're discussing a new pilot (to VATsim), and we could certainly debate all the nuances of VFR vs IFR starting with the simple point that VATSIM has *one* VFR course / rating, and *two* IFR ratings, but perhaps a simple example will illustrate my point and then we can (hopefully) leave it there.

 

Additionally, kindly take my original post's [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umptions into consideration: 1> USA 2> NO Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A or Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B. I don't purport to know Australian airspace cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ifications (having never flown there), and in fact, I don't know where the OP does his flying -- hence the reasons for my qualifying disclaimers previously.

 

Now, with all that in mind, let us plan a couple simple flights and examine the ATC interaction required (further disclaimer) -- I am not a qualified VATsim controller, though I've interacted with several, so hopefully, I can get their piece of the conversation close enough for illustrative purposes, if not 100% C1 worthy.

 

So let's fly a Cessna 172 (N123EG) from Santa Barbara, CA (KSBA) to San Luis Obispo, CA (KSBP). KSBA is a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C towered airport and KSBP is a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D towered airport. The distance is about 63 nm and should take ~40 minutes or so. [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume the weather is "nice" - say 140 @6 kts, 10 SM, Clear, A30.04, and let's say Los Angeles CTR is the only controller online, on 127.50 and ATIS Yankee (Y) is covering the weather I outlined above.

 

Further [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming the flight is straight forward and there are no unusual circomestances, here's what I'd expect the basic ATC interaction for this VFR flight to be:

 

N123EG: Los Angeles Center, Good Afternoon. Cessna 123 Echo Golf is at Santa Barbara, Signature (the FBO), with information Yankee, ready to taxi for VFR departure, to the North.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Taxi to runway 1 5 left via Charlie.

3EG: Taxi to 1 5 left via Charlie, Cessna 3 Echo Golf.

...(a couple minutes later)...

3EG: Center, Cessna 3 Echo Golf is at 1 5 left, ready for departure.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Cleared for take-off, altimeter is 30.04.

3EG: Cleared to take-off, Cessna 3 Echo Golf

...(~30 minutes later)...

3EG: Center, Cessna 3 Echo Golf is approximately 10 miles SE of San Luis Obispo, with the field in sight.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, make left traffic, cleared to land, runway 11. Altimeter is 30.04.

3EG: Left traffic, cleared to land, runway 11, Cessna 3 Echo Golf

...(a couple minutes later - after CTR has noticed the landing -- 3EG could also make a clear of rwy call)...

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Welcome to San Luis Obispo, taxi to parking, your discretion

3EG: Taxi to parking, thanks for your help today, Cessna 3 Echo Golf

 

Now, let's look at the same flight as a filed IFR flight -- for that, let's make it simple with the Santa Barbara 4 Departure, then GVO V27 AVILA as the route to KSBP. The highest MEA is 6400, and he's going NW, so let's pick 8000 as the cruise altitude... Again, [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming nothing out of the ordinary, here's how that one might go:

 

N123EG: Los Angeles Center, Good Afternoon. Cessna 123 Echo Golf is at Santa Barbara, Signature (the FBO), with information Yankee, requesting IFR clearance to San Luis Obispo.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Cleared to San Luis Obispo via the Santa Barbara 4 Departure, vectors to GAVIOTA, and then as filed. Fly runway heading, climb and maintain 3000 ft, Departure is with me on 127.50, Squawk 2243.

3EG: Cleared to San Luis Obispo via the Santa Barbara 4 departure, vectors to GAVIOTA, and then as filed. Fly runway heading, climb and maintain 3000 ft, Departure is with you on 127.50, Squawk 2243.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, read back correct, report when ready to taxi.

3EG: I'll contact you when we're ready to taxi, 3 Echo Golf.

(...a couple minutes later...)

3EG: Center, Cessna 3 Echo Golf is ready to Taxi, IFR to San Luis Obispo.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Taxi to runway 1 5 left via Charlie.

3EG: Taxi to 1 5 left via Charlie, Cessna 3EG.

(...a couple minutes later...)

3EG: Center, Cessna 3 Echo Golf is at 1 5 left, ready for departure.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Cleared for take-off, altimeter is 30.04.

3EG: Cleared to take-off, Cessna 3 Echo Golf.

(...a couple minutes later...)

3EG: Cessna 3 Echo Golf is climbing through 600 for 3000.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Radar Contact. Turn right to 300 degrees, proceed direct GAVIOTA.

3EG: Turn right to 300, proceed to GAVIOTA, Cessna 3 Echo Golf.

(...a couple minutes later...)

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, climb and maintain 8000. Proceed on course.

3EG: Up to 8000 and proceed on course, Cessna 3 Echo Golf.

(...several minutes later...)

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, descend at pilot's discretion to cross AVILA at 3000. Expect vectors for ILS runway 11.

3EG: Descend to cross AVILA at 3000, expect vectors for ILS runway 11.

(...a couple minutes later...)

3EG: Center, Cessna 3 Echo Golf is leaving 8000 for 3000.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, copy, thank you. The visual approach for runway 11 is also available if you would like.

3EG: Center, I'll like to take the visual, thanks, Cessna 3 Echo Golf.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Roger. The airport will be 6 miles at your 2 o'clock when you cross AVILA, report the field in sight.

3EG: I'll report the field in sight, Cessna 3 Echo Golf

(...a few minutes later...)

3EG: Center, Cessna 3 Echo Golf has the field in sight.

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Roger. Cleared for the visual runway 11.

3EG: Cleared for the visual, Cessna 3 Echo Golf.

(...a couple minutes later...)

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, cleared to land, runway 11. Altimeter is 30.04.

3EG: Cleared to land, runway 11, Cessna 3 Echo Golf

...(a couple minutes later - after CTR has noticed the landing, or 3EG has made a "clear of runway" call)...

CTR: Cessna 3 Echo Golf, Welcome to San Luis Obispo, taxi to parking, your discretion

3EG: Taxi to parking, thanks for your help today, Cessna 3 Echo Golf

 

While we might certainly debate which flight is more interesting, I think there is little doubt which one was easier, for both parties.

 

Now let's examine a couple minor tweaks.

 

First, if LA CTR was not online, neither pilot has to talk to anybody, but both would be responsible for their UNICOM announcements.

 

Next, if the fields were both uncontrolled (say SANTA YNEZ and OCEANO CO for example), the VFR guy would not have to talk to a soul -- only UNICOM announcements are required. Not so, the IFR guy as he still needs IFR clearance from CTR and he then falls under the "1 in, 1 out" IFR procedures for uncontrolled airports.

 

Then, let's say the VFR guy spots an interesting building in his scenery enroute and wants to check it out. So, he drops down to 500 AGL and circles it a couple times and then climbs back up and continues on his merry way. Who does he need to talk to? Nobody. Nada. Zip. Even though he just transitioned from Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E to Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] G airspace, and then back to Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] E again, he doesn't have to make a single peep about it - to CTR, OR on UNICOM. If the IFR guy encountered turbulence, and wanted to change altitudes, he'd need to request it from CTR and be cleared for it. Additionally, in our example he is also required to report leaving cruise altitude at Top of Descent (due to the AVILA crossing clearance).

 

Finally, let's toss a couple more controllers into the mix. Let's say that TWR is staffed at both KSBA & KSBP. In that case, the VFR guy has to talk to both of them (for take-off and landing clearance), but he doesn't have to say a peep to CTR. Obviously, the IFR guy is required to speak to all 3 of the controllers.

 

So, opinions and mileage may vary, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that (in general) if you avoid Restricted, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A & Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airspace, VFR flight is significantly easier to deal with, from an ATC interaction point, than IFR if you're doing your flying in the USA.

 

I think, at this point, we may have terrified our OP with this debate, so I'll bow out of it from here, with the hope that his eyes didn't completely glaze over, he found it at least somewhat helpful, and that he can apply it to whatever (and wherever his) flying adventures take place.

 

Best of luck with your VATsim career, Morgan. Sorry for this thread jumping the rails to a side track -- hope it didn't confuse you, or deter you from proceeding -- it really can be an interesting and fun pastime.

 

Regards,

Jim

Edited May 3, 2017 at 09:16 PM by Guest

[Dace Nicmane]

So, you're telling me that he can *only* handle a 75 TON airplane well enough to hand fly an instrument or visual approach manually, but he can't handle a 1500 pound Cessna ??? Really ??? You don't suppose that 10 minutes of offline practice could solve this little conundrum? Okie Dokie. I can see we're done here (and this time, I believe some sarcasm *is* warranted)...

No need to get upset, maybe they're not interested in GA flying. Nobody's obliged to fly GA or VFR on VATSIM (unlike real life).

[Simon Kelsey]

Jim,

 

I agree with you that flying slower and lower in theory permits a bit more thinking time. However, for an inexperienced solo pilot you would be surprised how high the workload can get.

 

For a start, your suggested route immediately makes the supposition that a new VATSIM pilot:

 

a) Knows about airspace cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es and what they all mean to the VFR pilot

 

b) Knows where to find a suitable VFR chart for their locality (I know in the USA Skyvector provides good quality sectional charts - in the UK I certainly wouldn't want to try and navigate by the Skyvector VFR chart -- my (paid for) CAA 1:500,000 chart is great but the default scenery bears little relation to it, though Orbx England is fine. I couldn't even start tell you where to look for VFR charts for the rest of the world).

 

c) Knows how to interpret said chart in three dimensions

 

d) Knows how to navigate using stopwatch, comp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and visual references and maintain situational awareness of the airspace around them

 

d) Knows what the VFR weather minima are and can make a sensible go/no go decision

 

e) Is prepared to adapt their plan and route at short notice in the event that a clearance through some controlled airspace is refused

 

IFR, you don't have to worry about a lot of this stuff: you're almost always in CAS, you don't have to worry about avoiding those invisible lines in the air and you don't have to be able to see where you're going.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ive proponent of GA and 99% of my VATSIM flying these days (around 5 hours a week) is in the right hand seat of a C172 teaching P2/P3 students all of this stuff. But I disagree that for the average flight simmer with no real world experience of light aircraft flying that it's automatically easier: a lot relies on local knowledge of landmarks (which aren't always in the scenery), awareness of location and navigation skills. Most of my students are used to flying IFR jets on VATSIM and they are invariably quite surprised to discover just how much goes in to planning and executing a VFR flight; plus most really struggle to pick out landmarks and navigate to or from the local flying area until they've had quite a few lessons. Then the cross-country flights are even more challenging!

[Andrew Ogden]

I have had extensive correspondance with Morgan through PM on the forums, and I have offered to give a few hours sometime on the weekend to help him get started, which he gratefully accepted. This will include basic phraseology, VFR vs IFR, IFR flying in a light aircraft using radials and VORs/NDB's, manual flying vs autopilot and other things such as reading charts and flying SID's and STARS.

[Jim Hurst 1353723]

@Simon

 

Ok. I give up.

 

Unless I missed a memo that the "expected" VATsim career path for all the cool kids is to buy an Airliner with FMC and program it to do the flying, I'll submit that for every one of your "issues" a new pilot has to "overcome" and learn to fly simple VFR, there's one or more parallels that the new IFR pilot needs to learn to fly IFR (again, barring the memo I evidently missed):

 

a> IFR -- has to know about Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace, RSVR / No-RSVR, and in Europe, certainly, the various transition altitudes if he's flying there. Probably a bit easier, but in VFR (again in USA), if it isn't a solid blue circle or rectangle, and it isn't a purple circle, and it's not above FL180, then it's every bit as easy -- it's essentially free fly space until you come to an airport (or ocean)... which is why that was my *first* Rule of Thumb.

 

b> IFR has to know where to find suitable enroute (High or Low) charts, SIDs & STARs charts, ILS charts and be able to read them and fly them. That's at least two or three more charts for every flight than the VFR pilot needs (ie. a VFR sectional).

 

c> same ... IFR pilots still need to know ToD's, crossing restrictions, and how to fly SID's & STARs. (again, or don't learn them, and just program them into the shiny toy).

 

d> patently false - there is zero need to use a stopwatch for 99.99% of VFR flight -- pilotage by simple landmarks works just fine -- even in the default FSX... not to mention *any* other navaids... There is zero *requirement* to hit your interim ETE's to the second, or even the *hour*, provided your fuel quantity is sufficient for your expected flight time (+ reserves -- which IFR requires also).

 

d2/e> This point, I'll give you - they do need to know if it's a nice sunny day, or if it's raining cats and dogs and they can't see the neighbors house across the street (albeit, in IFR, they have to know MEA minimums and ILS minimums - particularly DHs, RVRs etc.)

 

e/f> What "refusals"? If he follows my first point, there won't BE any refusals... That can *only* happen in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C, MoA's & Restricted airspace -- the things I said to *avoid* initially... and, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C/D refusal is a huge stretch on VATsim, unless it's in the middle of a swamped Event.

 

Refusals / Holds and Clearance / Route amendments are far likelier for IFR pilots into, and out of, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports than they would be for VFR guys with C/D airports, and for E/G airports, it can't happen at all...

 

g> IFR, pretty much by definition, has a LOT more ATC interaction, with much more complicated directives and procedural requirements, so there's a lot more phraseology to learn, as should have been obvious by the actual flight examples provided earlier.

 

In summary, I guess that's why *every* flight school on the planet starts their RL flight courses with Airliners, FMC's, SID's & STARs ... because those things are a piece of cake to fly ... oh, wait... they don't...

 

I have no idea why folks are adamantly touting IFR as "easiest" when it clearly isn't, but I totally get that a PMDG 777 is much cooler than a vanilla Cessna, so I guess that's the real answer...

 

Sorry to make a case for simple, gr[Mod - Happy Thoughts] roots, stick and rudder VFR flying -- I see it is clearly not in vogue here.

 

Best of luck Morgan.... I change my advice -- buy and fly your favorite airliner -- I have it on good authority from folks with a lot more VATsim experience than I that it's much easier to do.

 

...and on *that* note, I'm definitely out of here... and out of the "advice" business ...

 

Besides, I need to go purchase a stopwatch for my next Cessna flight...

 

 

Cheers,

Jim

 

 

PS> @Simon. Sorry for the tone, but truthfully, the "IFR is easier than VFR" argument is logically ridiculous, and I find it extremely frustrating that that point isn't clearly obvious (like 1 + 1 = 2 obvious)... The analogy for Dace's airliner over a Cessna is like saying "I can drive a Big Rig 18 wheeler semitruck out on the interstate freeways, but my wife's Honda Civic is too much to handle... Ludicrous...

[Andrew Ogden]

Unless I missed a memo that the "expected" VATsim career path for all the cool kids is to buy an Airliner with FMC and program it to do the flying, I'll submit that for every one of your "issues" a new pilot has to "overcome" and learn to fly simple VFR, there's one or more parallels that the new IFR pilot needs to learn to fly IFR (again, barring the memo I evidently missed):

From what I gather reading this and other sections in this forum Jim, is I think you are missing the fact that light aircraft such as a Cessna 172 or a Piper Cherokee can do IFR quite easily (even handflown, which I always do) and you are [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociating IFR with big airliners, as I will explain for each of your statements below. Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is just the impression I am getting.

a> IFR -- has to know about Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace, RSVR / No-RSVR, and in Europe, certainly, the various transition altitudes if he's flying there. Probably a bit easier, but in VFR (again in USA), if it isn't a solid blue circle or rectangle, and it isn't a purple circle, and it's not above FL180, then it's every bit as easy -- it's essentially free fly space until you come to an airport (or ocean)... which is why that was my *first* Rule of Thumb.

A light aircraft can fly IFR without having that knowledge as it usually wont fly above 6000-8000ft. I totally agree with knowing about the ICAO airspace cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es, and that should be one of the first things you learn, so I don't see a problem.

b> IFR has to know where to find suitable enroute (High or Low) charts, SIDs & STARs charts, ILS charts and be able to read them and fly them. That's at least two or three more charts for every flight than the VFR pilot needs (ie. a VFR sectional).

A light aircraft equipped for IFR shouldn't need those Enroute charts, as you can navigate from VOR to VOR, or VOR to NDB using ADF and VOR frequencies. You can use the ILS in a light aircraft, but frankly its more work that isn't needed, so there goes that chart. SIDS and STARS arent necessarily needed as the light aircraft is realistically only going to do a visual departure and would use a published Visual arrival/departure displayed on the VFR chart for the airport.

c> same ... IFR pilots still need to know ToD's, crossing restrictions, and how to fly SID's & STARs. (again, or don't learn them, and just program them into the shiny toy).

I still see here the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that all IFR aircraft are big jetliners like a B777 or a B737. Almost none of that is required for light aircraft flying IFR.

d> patently false - there is zero need to use a stopwatch for 99.99% of VFR flight -- pilotage by simple landmarks works just fine -- even in the default FSX... not to mention *any* other navaids... There is zero *requirement* to hit your interim ETE's to the second, or even the *hour*, provided your fuel quantity is sufficient for your expected flight time (+ reserves -- which IFR requires also).

d2/e> This point, I'll give you - they do need to know if it's a nice sunny day, or if it's raining cats and dogs and they can't see the neighbors house across the street (albeit, in IFR, they have to know MEA minimums and ILS minimums - particularly DHs, RVRs etc.)

I've never used a stopwatch, and one is not required for a satisfactory VFR or IFR flight, I'll give you that one Jim, but navaids are your best friend in light aircraft IFR flight. A cessna 172 flying IFR doesn't need to know about minimums, you just don't require it.

e/f> What "refusals"? If he follows my first point, there won't BE any refusals... That can *only* happen in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C, MoA's & Restricted airspace -- the things I said to *avoid* initially... and, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] C/D refusal is a huge stretch on VATsim, unless it's in the middle of a swamped Event.

Refusals / Holds and Clearance / Route amendments are far likelier for IFR pilots into, and out of, Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B airports than they would be for VFR guys with C/D airports, and for E/G airports, it can't happen at all...

Sudden change in traffic amount than previously predicted? I have refused aircraft p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]age into Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B and C airspace because of this. I agree with that last sentence though, but provided the pilot isn't stupid, there is no problem there.

g> IFR, pretty much by definition, has a LOT more ATC interaction, with much more complicated directives and procedural requirements, so there's a lot more phraseology to learn, as should have been obvious by the actual flight examples provided earlier.

And? Isn't that part of the fun? I am not [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that every pilot comes in knowing exactly what to do, but before long they have everything down pat and have no problem with the phraseology and ATC interaction.

In summary, I guess that's why *every* flight school on the planet starts their RL flight courses with Airliners, FMC's, SID's & STARs ... because those things are a piece of cake to fly ... oh, wait... they don't...

The sarcasm all over this forum post makes you sound like a prick who's opinion is always correct to be perfectly honest.

Sorry to make a case for simple, gr[Mod - Happy Thoughts] roots, stick and rudder VFR flying

Stick and rudder IFR flying is entirely possible, as I have explained. Easier than not quite frankly.

 

TL;DR - Stick and rudder IFR flying in light aircraft is entirely possible, and the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that IFR is always flown in big airliners is wrong.

 

Anyway, that's my two cents worth. You don't even have to do what I have suggested in this post, but those are my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Trent Hopkinson]

a> IFR -- has to know about Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace, RSVR / No-RSVR, and in Europe, certainly, the various transition altitudes if he's flying there. Probably a bit easier, but in VFR (again in USA), if it isn't a solid blue circle or rectangle, and it isn't a purple circle, and it's not above FL180, then it's every bit as easy -- it's essentially free fly space until you come to an airport (or ocean)... which is why that was my *first* Rule of Thumb.

 

IFR doesn't NEED to know about any airspace beyond "Controlled, and uncontrolled" If you are on a published airway above FL245, you're in "Controlled" If you are on the ground wanting a clearance, you're either at a Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]-G CTAF or you have a controlled position. (Unicom is different) - On vatsim it's even easier. Look at the controller list and see if there's a _DEL _GND _TWR _APP or _CTR in range with a login callsign similar to the airport you are sitting at. Regardless of who is there "Hello, ABC123 is at (airport) request IFR to (destination)" From then on, every move you make has been told to you.

Should you change frequency? Answer: If the ATC told you to.

Should you take off? Answer: If the ATC told you to.

Should you climb? Answer: If the ATC told you to.

Should you descend? Answer: If the ATC told you to.

Should you land? Answer: If the ATC told you to.

Yes "Good" IFR is more involved, but noobs are looking to get by without disturbing anyone or sound silly. You can get away with stuff in IFR by being a parrot and letting the FMS fly you. I don't see why people think that's enjoyable... but it's a possibility.

 

b> IFR has to know where to find suitable enroute (High or Low) charts, SIDs & STARs charts, ILS charts and be able to read them and fly them. That's at least two or three more charts for every flight than the VFR pilot needs (ie. a VFR sectional).

I'll challenge you to find 50 pilots during a large event like FNO that are doing that stuff, and aren't just opening PFPX, pluging in 2 ICAO codes and an aircraft type, and then plugging whatever it spat out into the FMS without even opening 1 single chart. Bad, but with things like the PMDG 777 running the Flightplan/Wind forecast uplink, the VNAV will descend right on profile [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming the ATC give out the descent clearance on time, and the pilot inserted the SID/STAR/Approach properly without any double-ups. The 777 auto-tunes the ILS with the right course as soon as it's been selected in the FMS. DH defaults to 200ft with 1 click. It's quite easy to fly the whole shabang without even opening a pdf reader nevermind actually read a chart.

 

c> same ... IFR pilots still need to know ToD's, crossing restrictions, and how to fly SID's & STARs. (again, or don't learn them, and just program them into the shiny toy).

FMS's have TOD's (The 777 one even has weather uplink from ActiveSky/PFPX as an option so it will actually get it right 99%+ of the time) and the TOD shows up as a nice handy green circle with the letters T/D right next to it. If flying a PMDG bird, you fly a STAR by selecting it in the APP/DEP page of the Boeing aircraft CDU, then selecting the STAR (which PFPX told you to plan via when flying in USA, or which the ATC told you, that you were cleared for, before top of descent, without your prompting! if in other parts of the world where STAR isn't filed) - You say just program them into the shiny toy... well yes. The FMS/Autopilot VNAV/LNAV will fly the SID and STAR if you programmed it in, regardless of wether you read the chart or not. The FMS can't read your mind to make sure you understand what you just told it to do, and then decide to be a spiteful little ghost in the machine and "throw a curveball just for fun".

PFPX told me to fly the JERSI4A Arrival? Cool. *Presses DEP/ARR button on the CDU, Selects "Page Dn" a few times, selects the line select with the words "JERS4A" next to it, Presses "EXE"

Now the aircraft will fly the (LNAV) portion of the JERSI4A arrival.

Rolling the MCP Altitude Select window down to the clearance limit given by ATC "ABC123 when ready descend to FL210" means the VNAV portion is armed too. Milage may vary on DH8D, A3xx etc aircraft, but for a 777, that's literally all you need till ATC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign you an approach.

 

d2/e> This point, I'll give you - they do need to know if it's a nice sunny day, or if it's raining cats and dogs and they can't see the neighbors house across the street (albeit, in IFR, they have to know MEA minimums and ILS minimums - particularly DHs, RVRs etc.)

80% of ILS approaches in the USA have an ILS DH of 200ft.

(Also 75% of statistics are made up)

This is why the Boeing 777 (both PMDG and the one that Boeing make at Seattle) "DH" button defaults to 200 (RA) when selected (1 push of the button) It then takes some time to move the twisty knob to select anything that isn't 200ft. It's quick dirty and less fun if you don't look at the chart, but the autopilot will happily cat III land the plane, even with these things set to the default/wrong/not at all. The ATC and other pilots won't be able to see that this pilot is being lazy. His ACARS isn't connected to anybody that can "Sack" him or put him on performance review. And newbie PMDG 777 owner can live in bliss without even knowing he wasn't doing it "right" - unless one day he posts a screenshot or video on facebook... at which point the sharks will come to feast.

 

g> IFR, pretty much by definition, has a LOT more ATC interaction, with much more complicated directives and procedural requirements, so there's a lot more phraseology to learn, as should have been obvious by the actual flight examples provided earlier.

And all the ATC interaction is instigated BY the ATC except for the very first request. (and the occasional descent clearance request if ATC was busy somewhere else/not paying attention and forgot to issue one on time.)

 

In summary, I guess that's why *every* flight school on the planet starts their RL flight courses with Airliners, FMC's, SID's & STARs ... because those things are a piece of cake to fly ... oh, wait... they don't...

Real life flight school has an instructor sitting right next to the n00b telling him what to do. The instructor knows when ATC needs to be interacted with, where the airspace restrictions are, and how to navigate.

Vatsim has ATC who can tell you what to do and help you navigate ie give the correct STAR and Runway at the appropriate time so the n00b can plug away in the FMS so the Autopilot knows where to fly the plane to.

 

Is it fun to make the autopilot fly you without even knowing where you are because all you did was pop in 2 ICAO codes in PFPX, click "ok" 20 times to auto populate all the fields, then export the flightplan to the vatsim prefile page and the PMDG 777's FMS along with correct and current weather profiles, then just insert SID's, Runways, STAR's and Approaches into the FMC when the ATC told you to without so much as looking at a chart? Probably not. But it's possible to "Get away" with that and even appear competent on the radio as long as nothing "interesting" happens (like a requirement for a re-route off the filed plan, or getting to "Descend via the arrival"). People do this every day on this network.

I agree it's not "The right way", but it's not a disaster if they do it. (The people who do it are usually teenagers - they will grow out of it eventually, either by improving because they want more variety in their flying (when you get your first flight lesson in the real world, you probably want to start using an aircraft similar to the one you just did your TIF in for some flights) or by leaving flightsimming entirely because it's "boring".

[Simon Kelsey]

Hi Jim,

 

The problem is, which of these is easier:

 

a) Find a VFR chart, plan a route avoiding various bits of airspace, then hop in your aeroplane and fly it by looking out the window for those imaginary lines and relating the FSX default scenery to the features on the chart, or:

 

b) Fire up Simbrief, take the last route someone entered between your departure and destination, download an FMS file for your aircraft, load it, take off, press CMD A and watch the aeroplane follow the pink string all the way to your destination before setting you up on a nice 10 mile or so ILS final where you press APP and wait for the aeroplane to land itself

 

I don't disagree with you that a) is more fulfilling, but b) is the sort of profile the average new Vatsimmer is used to flying: they buy their PMDG 747, follow the tutorial which tells them how to do precisely that and they get quite proficient at it. They may have used the default FSX ATC, or they may have used ATC software such as Radar Contact, and/or they may have listened to LiveATC or YouTube videos of airline flights with ATC overlaid.

 

Whilst I wholly agree with you that a proficient IFR pilot certainly does need to know about MEAs, OCAs, minima and so on, if you follow the pink string then 99% of the time you don't need to know it and I will put it to you that most of even the most proficient VATSIM IFR pilots probably don't know this stuff. If you did a quick straw poll asking random pilots on VATSIM what cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] of airspace they were flying in I suspect most would not have a clue -- when you're IFR it doesn't really matter because you can go anywhere! VFR, however, you have to know where you can and can't go, whether you need a clearance and what you can expect from ATC (in many cases - very little).

 

In the same vein as your point about MEAs and minima, I could argue that a VFR pilot needs to know the VFR minima for each different cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] of airspace they might fly in to. I'd also suggest that map, comp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and stopwatch are the three essential items to carry out basic VFR dead-reckoning navigation -- it's just all distance/speed/time.

 

I could also suggest that to be a proficient VFR pilot you would need to understand drift and how to use a flight computer to work out your headings to fly and/or the wind if unknown. But, a bit like flying IFR by plugging things in to the FMC, as you quite rightly point out you can generally get away without the above items

 

In summary, I guess that's why *every* flight school on the planet starts their RL flight courses with Airliners, FMC's, SID's & STARs ... because those things are a piece of cake to fly ... oh, wait... they don't...

 

No, they start their flight courses with C152s because they're cheap! I guarantee you that if it only cost $100/hr to run a B737, airline cadets would never darken the door of a C152 -- the flight schools (and airlines) would far rather teach guys how to fly gl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and operate the FMC from the get-go; it would significantly reduce training costs and time. We're already seeing training move in this direction with the MPL.

 

Arguably the real-world IR contains a lot of stuff that the average airline pilot is never going to have to do outside of the IR test. How many times has the average 737 pilot hand-flown a single-engine NDB hold on raw data on the line, do you suppose (or even an AEO NDB hold on raw data!). Holds, procedure turns, partial panel flying, raw-data SIDs -- all stuff which a good instrument pilot should be able to do and I would encourage anyone reading this who's never tried it to learn -- and it is definitely worth starting out doing that stuff in something a bit slower and more manoeuvrable than an airliner -- but let's be honest, the average VATSIM pilot can achieve all of that stuff if they're competent in the use of the FMC, which, again, is most people's starting point. You can read and follow a PMDG tutorial on how to set up the FMC and flying that profile will work pretty much everywhere in the world. There's not really a universal equivalent for VFR flying where the rules and expectations vary significantly from country to country.

 

As I say, almost all of my flying now is with students doing the P2/P3 course. Many of them are very experienced and competent IFR airline flyers capable of handling almost anything on the network up to and including the very biggest events. But put them in a C172 and ask them to point out a town, or tell you where they are, or where the base of the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A is, or do a standard overhead join, or request a zone transit, and many of them do not know where to start. The good news is that most of them have a lot of fun learning, come away from the course with a new appreciation for VFR flying and go on to do much more GA flying on the network!