ATC Minimum online time ?

[Ismail El Moussati]

Hi guys,

 

I was looking into CoC and Regulations ...etc, I am curious if there is any minimum online time required for ATC.

If none why not to establish new rule for ex: minimum 25 minutes, cause it's very bad behavior from some controllers, forcing act you 2 o 3 times, after 5 or 10 minutes they disconnecting without any advice. Some of controllers connecting for only 5 - 10 minutes giving you restrictions while clearing you for x procedures later on they disconnect ...

 

Looking forward to hearing from you,

[Nicholas Cavacini]

There is no minimum online time required by CoC/CoR, however there are divisions/vACCs/ARTCCs that may have different requirements.

[Sean Harrison]

I think having an expectation is the better way to go.

 

I don’t think you can force someone to stay online, the consequences could include; discouraging members to try sectors, having poor services provided because I can’t handle what I have but I’m not allowed to log off, and reduced atc connection for fear of breaching the rules.

 

I’ve had pilot connections fly through my sector, and been offline more than online. Who cares what the reason is, it’s about enjoyment not forced connection.

 

Lastly, how could you enforce such a rule. ISP drop out?

[Nicholas Cavacini]

What I've seen, is typically phrased to be something like "expected to be online for x amt of time". With these rules, it is usually permitted to log off early but that should be the exception for the member. The rules would typically focus on a consistent pattern for a specific member. These rules which would be in place at a division level or lower would be enforced at the local, not network wide level.

[Johnny Coughlan]

I find it highly unlikely this is a regular occurrence, sounds like you had a bad experience and are bringing it here to vent.

 

No, you can't force ATC to stay connected for a minimum amount of time just as you can't force pilots to do a minimum competence test before they connect.

 

Internet can drop, power can go out, real life issues might come up, end of the day this is a log on, log off hobby, not a real job, things come up in real life all the time forcing people to disconnect early.

[Dan Everette]

I've already invested a significant amount of time in training to be able to log in and control on the network. The amount of my valuable time I donate to provide ATC services is my decision.

 

When there are competency requirements that pilots need to meet, then we can talk about how much time I'm required to provide ATC services once I hit the connect button.

[David Zhong]

The least useful arguments presented on these forums are of the "us and them"-type as it is very often the case that members participate as both pilots and controllers. But nonetheless, it should be clear that for VATSIM to function, it requires both pilots and controllers working for mutual benefit and the nature of our community requires its members to act in mutual respect.

 

I don't think it's in the spirit of this organisation for anyone to be forced to do anything, but just as controllers expect that pilots complete their flights and without trying to avoid ATC (etc.), pilots would expect controllers to be online for a reasonable amount of time to enable them to take advantage of their services. But these are merely general expectations and there may be good reasons why someone cannot meet them on a particular occasion. We also know that there are many people who repeatedly breach these expectations and they should rightly be called out on it.

 

It is certainly possible at the division or subdivision level to provide guidelines to its controllers on these community expectations. And while formal action cannot be taken on controllers that repeatedly flout these expectations, as with any community, there are informal measures that can be taken against members who offend the community.

[Dan Everette]

It is certainly possible at the division or subdivision level to provide guidelines to its controllers on these community expectations. And while formal action cannot be taken on controllers that repeatedly flout these expectations, as with any community, there are informal measures that can be taken against members who offend the community.

 

And who defines what's offensive to the community?

 

OK, let's remove the entire us vs. them flavor of the argument. Here is a much more practical and realistic response:

 

Once I start getting paid by VATSIM to provide ATC services, then we can talk about setting guidelines on how much time I'm required to remain online when I hit the connect button. Until that happens, pilots are going to keep disconnecting when they're sent a .contactme, and controllers are going to keep disconnecting when they no longer wish to provide ATC services (regardless of how much time they've spent online). If that seems offensive to some, then I'd recommend finding another hobby.

[Simon Kelsey]

Interesting views on both sides of this coin.

 

For what it's worth, whilst recognising that of course VATSIM is a hobby, we're all volunteers etc etc - I don't think it is unreasonable to have some minimum expectations about commitment. Just because one is not being paid for something doesn't mean there can be no expectation of commitment. I used to present a show on a little community radio station - I, like everybody else, was a volunteer doing it for free. However, there was still an expectation that I would turn up at the allotted time each week and do the show, and otherwise provide sufficient notice that someone else could do it instead. If I continually didn't show up or only turned up for the first ten minutes, I would have quite reasonably expected the management to take that slot off me and give it to someone else!

 

In the same way, if you are logging on to fly it is reasonable to expect that you will have sufficient time to complete the flight, and if you are logging on to control it is reasonable to expect that you will not be logging off again ten minutes later. Of course emergencies happen and nobody's suggesting that VATSIM demand you log on for four hours at a stretch. But as a general rule is it that unreasonable to say 'if you are going to log on, please think about whether you actually have the time to provide the service'.

 

I don't start a long haul flight at 9pm when I know I have to go to bed to get up the next morning. Likewise I don't log on to control when I know my wife is due back home in ten minutes because it doesn't help anybody - not me, not a pilot who looks at VATSPY and thinks about flying out of my airfield and not the reputation of my VATSIM division.

 

Nobody is saying people should be punished for logging off if the power goes out ten minutes in to a session, or when their child suddenly falls ill and has to be rushed to hospital. But if you are constantly logging on for ten minutes at a time then what value are you bringing to the organisation? As mentioned in another thread - controllers popping up and then disappearing puts pilots off from flying in that area. In places where there is a bit more organisation, traffic levels are higher because people are confident of seeing ATC.

 

I know everyone's got busy lives but I don't think it's unreasonable for an organisation to expect its volunteers to exercise a small amount of time management.

[Johnny Coughlan]

Interesting views on both sides of this coin.

 

For what it's worth, whilst recognising that of course VATSIM is a hobby, we're all volunteers etc etc - I don't think it is unreasonable to have some minimum expectations about commitment. Just because one is not being paid for something doesn't mean there can be no expectation of commitment. I used to present a show on a little community radio station - I, like everybody else, was a volunteer doing it for free. However, there was still an expectation that I would turn up at the allotted time each week and do the show, and otherwise provide sufficient notice that someone else could do it instead. If I continually didn't show up or only turned up for the first ten minutes, I would have quite reasonably expected the management to take that slot off me and give it to someone else!

 

In the same way, if you are logging on to fly it is reasonable to expect that you will have sufficient time to complete the flight, and if you are logging on to control it is reasonable to expect that you will not be logging off again ten minutes later. Of course emergencies happen and nobody's suggesting that VATSIM demand you log on for four hours at a stretch. But as a general rule is it that unreasonable to say 'if you are going to log on, please think about whether you actually have the time to provide the service'.

 

I don't start a long haul flight at 9pm when I know I have to go to bed to get up the next morning. Likewise I don't log on to control when I know my wife is due back home in ten minutes because it doesn't help anybody - not me, not a pilot who looks at VATSPY and thinks about flying out of my airfield and not the reputation of my VATSIM division.

 

Nobody is saying people should be punished for logging off if the power goes out ten minutes in to a session, or when their child suddenly falls ill and has to be rushed to hospital. But if you are constantly logging on for ten minutes at a time then what value are you bringing to the organisation? As mentioned in another thread - controllers popping up and then disappearing puts pilots off from flying in that area. In places where there is a bit more organisation, traffic levels are higher because people are confident of seeing ATC.

 

I know everyone's got busy lives but I don't think it's unreasonable for an organisation to expect its volunteers to exercise a small amount of time management.

 

 

Simon,

 

Nobody is arguing against common sense, if you fly, plan to stay on for the duration, don't log off when a contact me is sent(What Don said) and ATC's should plan to stay in for a 'respectable' amount of time when they do a session.

 

The OP wants a certain amount of time for ATC to stay connected written into the COC, that's the main issue.

[Dace Nicmane]

The amount of my valuable time I donate to provide ATC services is my decision.

In real world, pilots fly because they have to carry people and goods, not for ATC. ATC exists only to provide service to the pilots. In the virtual world, both pilots and controllers do it for their own enjoyment and pilots are providing just as much a service to controllers by flying in their airspace as controllers to pilots. While I appreciate the training and the exams controllers have to go through and while I think ATC is more difficult (just my opinion - I had a controller recently tell me ATC is much easier than flying), it sounds very weird for you to say that you are donating your time as if you're getting nothing in return and the pilots are somehow in debt to you. You get your enjoyment from controlling them just as they get their enjoyment from your service.

 

As for the minimum online time, I don't think anything needs to be changed. It's working fine the way it is, with the occasional disappointment (I had one yesterday, too). Just learn to accept to fly on unicom and the less you make a big deal out of it, the less often it will happen.

[Dan Everette]

While I appreciate the training and the exams controllers have to go through and while I think ATC is more difficult (just my opinion - I had a controller recently tell me ATC is much easier than flying), it sounds very weird for you to say that you are donating your time as if you're getting nothing in return and the pilots are somehow in debt to you. You get your enjoyment from controlling them just as they get their enjoyment from your service.

 

Your [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umption that by my using the word "donate" implies I think pilots are in debt to me is quite in error. VATSIM is a fundamentally volunteer organization. Also, you're drawing [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umptions on what I find enjoyable about controlling, and you don't know a single thing about me.

 

I'm choosing to donate my time to (what I view as) a good cause. Namely the advancement of aviation education and entertainment in the form of an online air traffic network. In fact, I think I owe VATSIM something, as I still feel it played a significant positive role when I earned my instrument rating.

 

I'll try and boil my argument down even more: After 8 hours at work, I have an hour or two available for myself. Do I hop in a real plane and go fly? A virtual one? Do I login to my favorite MMO? Devote some more time to the Honey-Do list? Study for my next rating? Or do I login and provide a service to online pilots?

 

I have a choice, and what I choose to do with my free time is my decision. I agree that there should be some common sense, but in my experience, common sense isn't always common. My issue with the OP's view is that this needs to be codified.

 

Where do you draw the line? If it's time based, there will always be pilots likely impacted by the controller logging off.

 

Again, I'm not getting paid to provide this service, so I don't see how you can codify/regulate how much of my time I'm required to spend online during each session.

[Martijn Rammeloo]

Hi Ismail,

 

Within DutchVACC, it is a common practice to book ATC duties in advance. These bookings are published on several (public) websites. Normally we feel committed to these bookings, even if there is no (interesting) traffic: a promise is a promise. However, real life occurrences may interfere: sickness, children having nightmares, internet issues, last-minute social activities etc. As stated above, VATSIM is not a job, and therefore one's priorities are as such.

 

Martijn