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No FMC how do I proceed?


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An FMS isn't required to navigate in an airplane - even using RNAV and SIDs/STARs - so no, I'd recommend you plan out a more sensible route based on your aircraft's navigation capabilities.

 

As for the callsign, it depends. If you're not simulating any specific mission/operation and you're just relocating an aircraft, you could reference some of the examples in AIM 4-2-4(a)(6), using serial numbers or letters/numbers. Otherwise, the 7110.65 (if you'll pardon the ATC materials reference) has a list of options in section 2-4-20(a)(6). For example, you could go with a "pronounceable [word] of 3 to 6 letters followed by a 1 to 5 digit number" and let your imagination go wild.

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The important thing is to be able to actually fly your aircraft and follow instructions. Holding altitudes, following headings, tuning a navaid and flying to and from it, and for a fresh VATSIMer in a fighter jet: Maintaining [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned speeds and realizing that just because its made to go fast, it doesn't mean you can go fast anywhere you like. There is no military priority on this network (barring VSOAs), and if there are someone in front of you in line, ATC will not just tell them to go away because the guy behind wants to fly fast

 

We're here to enjoy ourselves together, and nothing quite ruins a nice session like the guy squeaking about importance and his coolness all while he lost control of his aircraft about two minutes before he even took off. I'm not saying that this is you of course, but this thread might attract the attention of people susceptible to such activities, and compel them to check out https://www.vatsim.net/pilots

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Okay, thanks. I'm very familiar with my F22 and can maintain 250 less/more if need be at 10K or below, etc. I will be flying into cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace so shouldn't I be able to go mach 2.35 like I normally do? When I file my flight plan the IAS would be about 600 knots.

 

Thanks again.

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Okay, thanks. I'm very familiar with my F22 and can maintain 250 less/more if need be at 10K or below, etc. I will be flying into cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace so shouldn't I be able to go mach 2.35 like I normally do? When I file my flight plan the IAS would be about 600 knots.

 

Thanks again.

 

Nope. You can't break the sound barrier over the US Mainland.

Matt Bartels
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Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own and not representative of the official opinion of the VATSIM Board of Governors

 

 

 

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Okay, thanks. I'm very familiar with my F22 and can maintain 250 less/more if need be at 10K or below, etc. I will be flying into cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace so shouldn't I be able to go mach 2.35 like I normally do? When I file my flight plan the IAS would be about 600 knots.

 

Thanks again.

 

Nope. You can't break the sound barrier over the US Mainland.

 

Cant see that on the VATSIM rules?

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

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Okay, thanks. I'm very familiar with my F22 and can maintain 250 less/more if need be at 10K or below, etc. I will be flying into cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] A airspace so shouldn't I be able to go mach 2.35 like I normally do? When I file my flight plan the IAS would be about 600 knots.

 

Thanks again.

 

Nope. You can't break the sound barrier over the US Mainland.

 

Cant see that on the VATSIM rules?

 

Could you point me to the rule that says it IS allowed then, as you are such an expert?

 

What makes you think that something that isn't mentioned in the rules is automatically permitted? Does it say that anywhere in the rules? Where, precisely?

Vice President, Pilot Training

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This is way to serious. I may not even use VATSIM. Good grief.

The idea is that we enjoy flying realistically using the same procedures and policies as the real world. It CAN be and IS fun for those that want to do that. If that's not your cup of tea, there are other multiplayer resources out there.

Cheers,

-R.

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Could you point me to the rule that says it IS allowed then, as you are such an expert?

 

What makes you think that something that isn't mentioned in the rules is automatically permitted? Does it say that anywhere in the rules? Where, precisely?

 

Rules generally are not put in place to allow actions. They dont post a rule at the swimming pool to say swimming is allowed, but they do say no running....

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

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They dont post a rule at the swimming pool to say swimming is allowed, but they do say no running....

 

Yes, but because it doesn't say 'no jogging' doesn't mean you can argue that because you're not sprinting that's allowed. If it doesn't specifically say 'no pouring bubble bath in to the pool', does that mean you can do it? In aviation in particular, the rulebook is generally non-permissive - in other words, just because something is not specifically prohibited doesn't automatically mean it is allowed. Sometimes indeed there are even rules which technically allow you to do something which in practice you really shouldn't: as an example, in the UK Military Air Traffic Zones around military airfields are mandatory for military pilots, but technically do not apply to civilian pilots and therefore you can quite legally fly through them without speaking to anybody if you want. No-one can stop you, but you'd be a bloody fool to do it because the whole point is that they tend to be full of fast pointy things doing unpredictable things.

 

Likewise, there's nothing stopping a brand new PPL holder on day one taking off with the weather right on the VFR minima in an unfamiliar aeroplane to fly several hundred miles across country, but nobody would suggest that would be a good thing to do.

 

Rules rely on the application of common sense. On VATSIM, it is generally considered that pilots are expected to make their best effort to comply with the normal rules of the air, which over the continental US means no flying at Mach 2. There's no specific rule that says I can't 'beat up' Heathrow in an F18 either, does that mean we should encourage everybody to go out and do it on the basis of "oh, well show me the rule that says I can't, so yah boo sucks to you".

 

At the end of the day, you can look for and pull out as many loopholes as you want. The only result will be that sooner or later things will end up being written in that end up overly restricting everybody to cover the 'loopholes' and protect the enjoyment of the majority of those who just want to play sensibly.

 

Ultimately life rule #1 applies: don't be a twit.

Vice President, Pilot Training

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The rules of the air are loosely followed on VATSIM, it's not a requirement.

 

The purpose of VATSIM is to create an environment where people can do things they would not normally do in the real world.

 

Flying a 777 at the age of 13

Landing at Kia Tak

Putting 600 planes across the pond in a 6 hour window, exceeding the normal ratio of planes to controllers by about 200%

Doing a 2 hour OTS exam to be signed off on Heathrow tower, A process that would normally take a full year.

Flying a 747 under the Sydney Harbour Bridge at the end of worldflight.

 

It is permissible to fly at an accelerated speed, in controlled airspace with permission of the controller, or in uncontrolled airspace with permission from no one.

 

The reason the rule exists in the real world is because of the impact of the nose made by supersonic jets p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing over residential areas, albeit at the speed a supersonic jet travels, the impact would be small, as no one lives in the vatsim network, the impact is null and void.

 

If you want to beat up in an F/A18 at Heathrow, no one can stop you, as long as, if its controlled you have permission from the controller, or in uncontrolled environment, you are not negatively impacting the enjoyment of others.

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

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Go ahead and pull this nonsense online. Then come crying on the forums when the founders ban ALL military aircraft from the network. I was there on SATCO and at the start of VATSIM, and can tell you that was a distinct possibility because of foolishness like this proposal. The SOA was created to prevent that from happening.

Or go be a fool, and ruin it for everyone because you wanted your two minutes of fun.

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Please reread Kirk's last paragraph and pray tell what impact supersonic speeds have on other users? Other than the manifestation of noise (not applicable to what we are doing) what is so special about Mach 1 to our operations?

David Zhong

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Because VATSIM is a training environment, not a free-for-all, and it follows actual regulations when applicable?

14 CFR 91.821 - Civil supersonic airplanes: Noise limits.

"Except for Concorde airplanes having flight time before January 1, 1980, no person may operate in the United States, a civil supersonic airplane that does not comply with Stage 2 noise limits of part 36 in effect on October 13, 1977, using applicable trade-off provisions."

Or, we could go with 14 CFR 91.817 - Civil aircraft sonic boom

"(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft in the United States at a true flight Mach number greater than 1 except in compliance with conditions and limitations in an authorization to exceed Mach 1 issued to the operator under appendix B of this part.

 

(b) In addition, no person may operate a civil aircraft for which the maximum operating limit speed MM0 exceeds a Mach number of 1, to or from an airport in the United States, unless -

 

(1) Information available to the flight crew includes flight limitations that ensure that flights entering or leaving the United States will not cause a sonic boom to reach the surface within the United States; and

 

(2) The operator complies with the flight limitations prescribed in paragraph (b)(1) of this section or complies with conditions and limitations in an authorization to exceed Mach 1 issued under appendix B of this part."

 

As a reminder, VATSIM isn't a "place where we can do stuff we normally couldn't", it's

an environment which is fun and, at the same time, educational and a realistic simulation of procedures followed by pilots and air traffic controllers everyday around the world.
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Because VATSIM is a training environment, not a free-for-all, and it follows actual regulations when applicable?

 

No it isn't, it's a hobby environment, for entertainment, and gaming.

 

Yes it is, Any one can sign up and join the network and start flying, as long as they follow the code of conduct.

 

No it does not, VATSIM aims to follow procedures, not regulations, they are different.

 

As a reminder, VATSIM isn't a "place where we can do stuff we normally couldn't", it's

 

It sure is,

In what normal environment can you, without any flight training, pilot a 747?

In what normal environment can you control at multiple airports around the world without doing years or training or moving house???

In what normal environment can you fly in and out of closed airports, that no longer exist?

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

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Jim,

 

The regulations you cite (which of course applies only in the USA or USA operators) talks about civil aircraft and refers to noise limits in the title.

 

Clearly the F22 is not a civil aircraft. And surely you don't advocate for everyone learning all of the complex noise restrictions around the world?

 

I would make two points: noise restrictions are definitely not "applicable" and there are a plethora of rules that we don't need or want here.

 

There are plenty of people who say we have too many rules. Do we really want more rules on what we can/can't do in this hobby? Remember, we are not talking about people trying to disturb others' enjoyment. We are simply talking about going fast. Similar effect can be had by airliners cruising at Mach 0.8 but with 4x time acceleration, which is a practice that is accommodated.

David Zhong

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Clearly the F22 is not a civil aircraft. And surely you don't advocate for everyone learning all of the complex noise restrictions around the world?

 

But as I am sure Kirk will be quick to point out, the CoC specifically states that members are free to participate in civilian flight operations and military operations must be conducted under the auspices of a vSOA. So using 'I'm flying a military aircraft' does not apply.

 

It's really very simple. If you want to fly F22s around at Mach 2 with no route and no navigation capability, there are better places to do that than VATSIM, like the Microsoft Zone.

 

The majority of people just want to enjoy their flights in a sensible environment without dealing with this sort of nonsense.

Vice President, Pilot Training

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Its not the aircraft that is restrected under the VASO policys, its the activity. You are free to fly any military aircraft you like whereever whenever. As soon as you engage in military style activity, flying in formation, carrier landing, air to air refueling then and only then is it a vatsim restricted operation.

 

No it does not, VATSIM aims to follow procedures, not regulations, they are different.

 

 

Thanks for your co consrructive input. What, if any, is wrong with my statement?

Kirk Christie - VATPAC C3

VATPAC Undercover ATC Agent

Worldflight Perth 737-800 Crew Member

956763

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Simon, you are certainly right that is says that, but we are quickly mixing different contexts together. The drafters of US aviation law had a certain thing in mind when they referred to "civil aircraft". We know from comments made by senior VATSIM officials that point-to-point flights are not considered to fall under VSOA rules.

 

I still really don't get why you are getting so hung up on this issue of speed. The original poster did not say that he had no navigation capability. He simply wants to fly from A-B on a direct route at a particular speed. That the speed is greater than Mach 1 doesn't have any adverse consequences to ATC (they can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign slower speeds or an amended routing if traffic is an issue) or other pilots (as long as he doesn't do anything crazy) that I can see. If someone's actions are not detrimental to others, why should we say that his idea of fun is any less valid than ours?

David Zhong

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Why shouldn't it be permissible to fly supersonic over land? We are simulating here, nobody will suffer from broken windows or heart-attacks because there is not sonic boom. In the real world this is the reason why you cannot fly supersonic over land, unless you are a military aircraft that is on a mission. We still get those sonic booms every now and then, when a jet goes supersonic to intercept a sleeping crew on an airliner - just last week I witnessed one in the area north of Munich.

 

To continue on this off-topic topic, there's no VATSIM-rule about NOT flying supersonic over land. As has been mentioned before, you can basically do "anything" as long as you do not negatively impact the enjoyment of others who are online at that time. To fly supersonic you will normally fly well above all other aircraft, so nobody should be impacted there. As an ATCO I also do not care whether you p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] through my enroute-sector in 15 or in 5 minutes, why should I?

 

Those who feel that their enjoyment is negatively impacted by someone else flying at M2.3 about 10,000ft above them I have no comment, I simply cannot understand it. Even if this pilot flies to the same airport as you, he won't be in your way, because - yes, you got it! - he will be there way before you. Or are you angry, because he overtook you "unlawfully", are you taking it personally? Do you think that this pilot did it especially, because he saw your callsign/name and decided to annoy you?

 

Again: as long as you do not negatively impact the online experience of others, you can fly as fast as you wish. Time acceleration wouldn't be allowed otherwise.

 

 

So, can we please come back to the topic "No FMC how do I proceed?".

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So, can we please come back to the topic "No FMC how do I proceed?".

 

Yes, to the point. You want to fly a high performance, military jet from and to primary Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] B civil fields with no concept of navigation or planning. Ummm, how about just don't. Or do; whatever. If you choose to do so, might I recommend doing it during a FNO. It will be much better received then.

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