TNT waypoint

[Marc Sieffert]

Hi, I used DAYN2A approach on EGCC and the Controller when mentioning the first waypoint TNT did not say Tango November tango but something like trends... I could not really understand.... Is there a special name for TNT?

Thanks!!

[Andreas Fuchs]

Yes, maybe have a look at your Operational Flight Plan, at the STAR chart or at your enroute charts (e.g. Skyvector): TNT = Trent VOR.

[Mike Sweeney]

TNT vor name is listed as TRENT on:
-- DAYNE standard arrivals EGCC
-- Low enroute chart
-- High enroute chart.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 at 06:42 PM by Mike Sweeney

[Koen Meier]

Majority of the VOR, NDB and DME has a name which can be seen on the charts either low airway,  high airway or procedures charts.

Edited February 10, 2021 at 07:52 PM by Koen Meier

[Robert Shearman Jr]

The lesson here probably is that in conjunction with programming a route into your FMC, one should always also refer to the charts for the routes and procedures.  In addition to the location names, the charts contain a plethora of additional information critical to proper execution. 

[Andreas Fuchs]

No, I don't think that this is the main lesson. Yes, have your charts for departure and arrival readily available. But enroute I do not do this here at VATISM, nor in the real world.

The lesson here is rather that you have to ask ATC for clarification: "say again (direct to waypoint)" - most likely the controller will then spell the point for you to understand. Happens to us all frequently in the real world and we the pros with 20+ years of experience. Try pronouncing some VOR names in Italy, France, Eastern Europe, Asia or the Middle East without being prepared and without having spoken these names several times beforehand, good luck!

As a virtual ATC I am used to this in Germany. In my sector I have a lot of traffic that has to go to DKB VOR at some point and as often as I can I send people there directly. Guess what, like in the real world we do NOT say "proceed direct DELTA KILO BRAVO", but we say the name of the VOR: "proceed direct to Dinkelsbühl". I am used to spell it after being asked to say again, but slowly and surely frequent fliers on that route know it already.

Edited February 11, 2021 at 10:55 AM by Andreas Fuchs

[Marc Sieffert]

Hi Andreas, actually you are perfectly correct, I asked "please say again"... and he spelled TNT Tango November Tango...  So I new exactly which waypoint he meant but was not sure about the name TRENT... The thing is that I am using little Navmap where I checked after the flight but nothing about TRENT... See below...

So my lesson is little Navmap is great but sometimes also have a look at the actual charts... 🙂

[Marc Sieffert]

Hi, I flew EGNX to EGKK today. Originally I planned to use the STAR KIDL1G and entered the route DTY UM605FINMA DCT KIDLI. But the Controller in EGNX asked me to take another road first DTY DCT WCO DCT MID  then he changed and asked me to take DTY UM6085 WOD UL612 MID. 

Since MID is the second waypoint of the STAR I selected STAR KIDL1G he asked me to change the STAR and take MID IX. That looked OK but when I got in contact with London Center he told me that my road is not valid and to fly direct to HOLLY after MID and not to follow the STAR MID IX. 

So was my first route I selected DTY UM605FINMA DCT KIDLI with STAR KIDL1G actually the correct route or do you have any other idea about this what is the correct route between EGNX and EGKK?

Thanks a lot!!

[Tobias Dammers]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:54 AM, Andreas Fuchs said:

Guess what, like in the real world we do NOT say "proceed direct DELTA KILO BRAVO", but we say the name of the VOR: "proceed direct to Dinkelsbühl". I am used to spell it after being asked to say again, but slowly and surely frequent fliers on that route know it already.

Meanwhile, the Dutch seem to have given up... making foreign pilots say "Schiphol" and "Spijkerboor" would just be too cruel, so it's just "Sherra Pappa Leema" and "Sherra Pappa Yankee" 😆

[Alistair Thomson]

48 minutes ago, Tobias Dammers said:

Meanwhile, the Dutch seem to have given up... making foreign pilots say "Schiphol" and "Spijkerboor" would just be too cruel, so it's just "Sherra Pappa Leema" and "Sherra Pappa Yankee"

:) The Dutch got it right!

[Koen Meier]

5 hours ago, Marc Sieffert said:

Hi, I flew EGNX to EGKK today. Originally I planned to use the STAR KIDL1G and entered the route DTY UM605FINMA DCT KIDLI. But the Controller in EGNX asked me to take another road first DTY DCT WCO DCT MID  then he changed and asked me to take DTY UM6085 WOD UL612 MID. 

Since MID is the second waypoint of the STAR I selected STAR KIDL1G he asked me to change the STAR and take MID IX. That looked OK but when I got in contact with London Center he told me that my road is not valid and to fly direct to HOLLY after MID and not to follow the STAR MID IX. 

So was my first route I selected DTY UM605FINMA DCT KIDLI with STAR KIDL1G actually the correct route or do you have any other idea about this what is the correct route between EGNX and EGKK?

Thanks a lot!!

Could be something todo with the UK standard routes. The MID1X is an Star to move traffic from midhurst to timba.

[Marc Sieffert]

yeap... but the pb is that the Controller of EGNX seems to have other expectations  than the Controller around EGKK which makes it difficult... The Controller from EGNX did not accept my route which was actually the route requested by EGKK... So I was wondering which is the proper route from EGNX to EGKK... My route included a DCT KIDLI which also seems not so nice... so if anybody has a better suggestion for a route between EGNX and EGKK  please let me know -). THANKS!!

[Koen Meier]

12 minutes ago, Marc Sieffert said:

yeap... but the pb is that the Controller of EGNX seems to have other expectations  than the Controller around EGKK which makes it difficult... The Controller from EGNX did not accept my route which was actually the route requested by EGKK... So I was wondering which is the proper route from EGNX to EGKK... My route included a DCT KIDLI which also seems not so nice... so if anybody has a better suggestion for a route between EGNX and EGKK  please let me know -). THANKS!!

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=186&Itemid=258.html Simbrief should check this and pfpx is able to check them as well if they are adapted to pfpx format.  sadly there is not usually a form of communication happening between two airport controllers. 

[Connor Faulder]

The 'correct' route, per the Standard Route Document (SRD) that @Koen Meier has linked to, is DTY DCT WCO DCT MID. Then join the KIDLI1G at MID.

 

I think this is just a case of one or both of the controllers not being familiar with this route and getting confused because it's not very common. It's also a bit awkward as you join the STAR at MID, not KIDLI.

I wouldn't worry about it. Controllers and pilots make mistakes and airborne re-routes will be given from time to time.

The SRD lists all the 'preferred' routes for flights within the UK so if you consult that, 99% of the time you should be fine.

[Martijn Rammeloo]

14 hours ago, Tobias Dammers said:

Meanwhile, the Dutch seem to have given up... making foreign pilots say "Schiphol" and "Spijkerboor" would just be too cruel, so it's just "Sherra Pappa Leema" and "Sherra Pappa Yankee" 😆

I pick one based on my guess about the pilot's proficiency.

[Andreas Fuchs]

3 hours ago, Marc Sieffert said:

The Controller from EGNX did not accept my route which was actually the route requested by EGKK

Where did you source your flightplan route? Simbrief suggests (DTY3N) DTY WCO MID KIDL1G as its first pick.

[Marc Sieffert]

Actually based again on Littlenavmap... and on the experience of my previous flights between EGCC and EGKK... Next time I will use the SRD file or Simbrief! Thanks to all of you for the valuable support!!

[Andreas Fuchs]

LNM is great, Simbrief is greater 😄