7.07(b) - Limitations on training for "Restricted" airports

[Dhruv Kalra]

35 minutes ago, Matthew Bartels said:

@Dhruv Kalra Let me tell you a little story about Don Fiveash.

 

Which happened an eon ago. “It happened this one time with this one guy, so that means it’s infinitely repeatable.” VATSIM loves its edge cases.

Edited July 24, 2021 at 10:37 PM by Dhruv Kalra

[Matthew Kramer]

I'm not sure how Don comes into play. He had to be checked out to work SMO at all, and SMO is smack in the middle of really busy, fun, and complicated airspace. It took weeks to build to that, anyway, and the debate in general over how visitors and new transfers are restricted has to do with getting them to traffic sooner. It's going to take 4 weeks to build steady traffic if you control regularly (and are even good enough people want to come back) or less than a single week to check out for and run wild on more than a single airport, and in the process the educators have an opportunity to educate. That's a win for everyone, pilots, students, instructors, since you get someone who can work more areas with higher quality. 

[Alexandra Robison]

9 hours ago, Matthew Bartels said:

@Dhruv Kalra Let me tell you a little story about Don Fiveash.

 

No disrespect to FH, as he was a valuable member of VATSIM and his name and legacy will live on forever, but you CANNOT keep referring to something that happened in 2005 as substantial evidence for 2021. The network is COMPLETELY different now than it was then. Seems your one crutch throughout this entire discussion is "once upon a time in 1878." Are we writing a policy for 10, 15 years ago? Or a policy for now?

[Alexandra Robison]

...

Edited July 25, 2021 at 07:18 AM by Alexandra Robison

[David Kirchner]

23 hours ago, Martijn Rammeloo said:

And this all implies that you cannot get a higher rating at a restricted airfield? Because a CPT would be needed to achieve that.

Martijn

 

I think you misunderstood this. There cannot be a practical examination for a restricted minor - just a little bit of training (to be specified by the division as well). That is correct. But of course ATC training for a rating can be done at a major airfield. This is also somehow stated in 6.05(h)(iii). It will be subject to our VATEUD Training Policy.

So what is possible: Introduction to TWR controlling --> introduction to controlling at e.g. EHAM --> training sessions --> solo phase EHAM plus more training sessions --> practical exam to achieve S2.
What is not possible: Training up to CPT at minor airport --> practical exam to achieve S2 at minor airport --> training at restricted minor --> another practical exam for this restricted minor.

PS: Of course there are other possible ways to structure the training. These are just two examples to make clear what to VATEUD's interpretation would be fine and especially what would not be possible. We think that's very reasonable.

Edited July 25, 2021 at 12:51 PM by David Kirchner

[Matthew Bartels]

45 minutes ago, David Kirchner said:

There cannot be a practical examination for a restricted minor or major endorsement

This is not 100% correct. A Major Endorsement can have a practical exam. It’s the restricted that as currently written is written only.

The thought process on all of it is that you should be able to get a student signed off sooner if you’re not training all the complexities of the  restricted or major right out of the gate.

[David Kirchner]

8 minutes ago, Matthew Bartels said:

This is not 100% correct. A Major Endorsement can have a practical exam. It’s the restricted that as currently written is written only.

The thought process on all of it is that you should be able to get a student signed off sooner if you’re not training all the complexities of the  restricted or major right out of the gate.

With restricted you mean restricted minor?

[Thimo Koolen]

1 minute ago, David Kirchner said:

With restricted you mean restricted minor?

In the latest draft it's no longer called restricted minor but restricted airspace / aerodrome. But the meaning is basically the same.

[David Kirchner]

Meaning it's even less restrictive than my initial interpretation. Allright then - leaves even more flexibility to the divisions/sub-division.