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Darrin Jones 983985
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Darrin, I worked at DAY ATCT as a GS-13, attended the FAA academy in "Ok City" in 1976 AND prior to that was a controller for the US Army at Cairns AAF and I still had to go to the academy. The reason is that is VATUSA's policy. After the academy I had to wait 30 days to take my C1, C3 and then my Instructor tests, again due to policy. If you have the background, the time factor involved in completing the training will be quick but one that ALL must go through.

 

Alan Hensley

Training Administrator

vZME

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I can tell you that it used to definitely NOT be this way. RL controllers were waived to a particular rating once they established that they were ATCOs. It is, in my opinion, pointless to make real world controllers jump through such hoops and unless there is some other issue here we are not aware of, such a policy leaves me wondering what is going on.

George S. Marinakis

VATSIM6, co-Founder, VATSIM

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And since I made the above post, I've found out why we no longer waive RL controllers. We no longer have a way of verifying it and in a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ic case of a few bad apples spoiling the bunch, some members were caught lying about the fact. For that reason, everyone, even real world controllers, has to submit to the testing procedures to advance. Sorry Darrin.

George S. Marinakis

VATSIM6, co-Founder, VATSIM

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Darrin -

 

I don't think it would take you but a single day to show your knowledge to an instructor. I would think VATUSA3 would be happy to run you through if you can p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the writtens.

 

The time you spend trying to avoid the test will be longer than the time you spend taking them... just an opinion.

Richard Green

VATSIM Supervisor

SB Testing & Support Team

VRC Testing & Support Team

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Darrin, I worked at DAY ATCT as a GS-13, attended the FAA academy in "Ok City" in 1976 AND prior to that was a controller for the US Army at Cairns AAF and I still had to go to the academy. The reason is that is VATUSA's policy. After the academy I had to wait 30 days to take my C1, C3 and then my Instructor tests, again due to policy. If you have the background, the time factor involved in completing the training will be quick but one that ALL must go through.

 

Alan Hensley

Training Administrator

vZME

 

 

Cairns huh???? I flew there before, just so you know they are still doing around a 150-200 movements per hour during launch and recovery.

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Well

 

I would think a copy of their CTO or radar liscense would perhaps suffice, as I'm sure it can be sent to one person just to be verified.

 

I think by doing this, you are turning away a potential crowd of people who would be interested in doing this. Honestly, if they didn't know how to do their own job well enough to simulate it, I wouldn't want to be flying into their airport.

UND ATC Major

ZAU MS

GO FIGHTING SIOUX

"Success isn't really a result of spontaneous combustions. You must set yourselfs on fire."

-Arnold H. Glasow

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Alright then, if Darrin (who is an S1) has to be tested, fine. But then why are my S1's being restricted from controlling then until after the academy? Isn't ALLtraining suppose to be conducted at the center / fir level per vatsim code of regulations?

 

Let's consult the ole CoR

 

Region = VATNA

Division = VATUSA

 

I always get confused by those terms. Seems backward to me. In any case, we can safely [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that region and division are interchangeable in these sections.

 

§1.01 Membership

G. Upon acceptance by VATSIM.net of a membership application, for a “Controllerâ€

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Fred Clausen, vZAB ATM

ZAB real life

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Verifying that someone has the prior ATC experience to control is not hard to do. Give me five minutes (at the most) and I can tell. As far as verifying a CTO or ANY airmen's certificate, you can go to the FAA website and get that information.

 

As far as controlling prior to going to the academy. When I started back last May, I was [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to an Academy Mentor, who shall go nameless. He knew my background so he plugged in with me at his ARTCC and I worked un[Mod - Happy Thoughts]isted for around 3 straight hours. However when a staff member from the VATUSA academy found out about it, he was a "tad" upset saying it violated policy. My Mentor was so upset ( I still don't know what they said to each other), he resigned from the Academy Mentor program and instead of fighting any policy, I played by the rules went to the academy for a week, went to Memphis and followed the "time in grade" policy and completed the training. Yeah it irritated me at first then I thought about it this way: I knew how to control and all the phraseology but if I had to take a little time to follow the procedures all others must follow because of some past problem or "bad apple", then I will. And I did.

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Still, it would be an advantage to the network if we could establish a method of verifying the status of real-world controllers and provide an effective means of fast-tracking those individuals who are so identified. It is not to our benefit to risk frustrating anyone with that experience and knowledge, and I have to say I think it a little bit frivolous to mandate the full academy training regimen for them. Certainly there is need for familiarization with the peculiarities of controlling over the VATSIM network, but beyond that, is the rest of the training really necessary? Maybe it would be prudent to explore the possibility of establishing a different path for such members, while ensuring fairness to all.

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If they can provide real world credentials, give them a few OTS's and how to operate the client and get them on the scopes. We could amend the policy that anyone taking this avenue and presents themselves fraudulently will get banned with no second chance. Should be a smaller number of unhappy fraudsters vs a large® number of RW controllers.

Kyle Ramsey

 

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Still, it would be an advantage to the network if we could establish a method of verifying the status of real-world controllers and provide an effective means of fast-tracking those individuals who are so identified. It is not to our benefit to risk frustrating anyone with that experience and knowledge, and I have to say I think it a little bit frivolous to mandate the full academy training regimen for them. Certainly there is need for familiarization with the peculiarities of controlling over the VATSIM network, but beyond that, is the rest of the training really necessary? Maybe it would be prudent to explore the possibility of establishing a different path for such members, while ensuring fairness to all.

 

 

Tom, thank you for seeing our side (RL controllers). I work with Darrin at ROC and compared to the time that I have in the agency, he has a lot more (19years + us army time). There is nothing more frustrating then being told that you have to take a basic atc 101 cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] when we have to abide by the 7110.65 everyday. I could see where an intro course to just the controller clients would be beneficial for us RLer's, but the rest (whats currently covered in the academy) is wasting what free time we are trying to donate for the benefit of the FS community.

 

 

Aaron Crawley

 

Zau's TA INS 3

 

ROC ATCT FAA

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A little suggestion Fred...if you are going to quote rules, it's always a good idea to make sure you use a current copy. What you are quoting is language which was changed way back in early 2003. Here is how Article I. §1.01 (G) and (H) currently read:

 

ARTICLE I. MEMBERSHIP

§1.01 Membership

 

G. Ratings: Upon acceptance by VATSIM.net of a membership application, a member will be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned a rating of Pilot/Observer. If a member wishes to provide air traffic control services, he or she must contact the region to which they have been [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned for details on training, testing and promotion to the appropriate rating. Notwithstanding any rules adopted by the VATSIM.net Board of Governors (as created herein by Article II.) to the contrary, VATSIM.net will employ the following ratings system, listed highest to lowest:

 

1. Administrator (ADM)

2. Supervisor (SUP)

3. Senior Instructor (I3)

4. Instructor (I)

5. Senior Controller (C3)

6. Controller (C1)

7. Senior Student (S3)

8. Student (S1)

9. Pilot/Observer (OBS)

 

Only members of the VATSIM Board of Governors (as created by Article II. hereunder), Founders of VATSIM.net (as designated in Article IV. hereunder) or other individuals designated by vote of the Board of Governors may hold an Administrator rating.

 

H. Advancement: Members of VATSIM.net are encouraged to apply and test for advancement of their rating. The rules and requirements for application, testing and advancement are to be determined and adopted by the various divisional directors, regional directors and ARTCC/FIR chiefs, subject to the general guidelines adopted by the VATSIM.net Board of Governors and its Vice President of Training. [Emphasis added]

 

And from the Code of Conduct:

 

C. CONTROLLER’S CONDUCT

 

3. When logging onto VATSIM as an observer, an individual should have a callsign which ends as follows: “_OBSâ€

George S. Marinakis

VATSIM6, co-Founder, VATSIM

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George,

So if I read what you have written, I should be able to train and certify on certain positions with out the academy. Without clarifying certain positions, it becomes very vague and can be interpreted differently than the original intent.

 

Honestly, I can see how I should have some experience with the software of choice for controlling, and maybe by some form of demonstration that I can use the software efficiently. I believe that this could be done efficiently without having to attend the Academy. And proceed through position certification at an accelerated rate.

 

I also can see where a demonstration is needed where someone can handle the positions, but to over restrict is doing a disservice to VATSIM community. Discouraging those that want to “volunteerâ€

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From what I read the part GSM is reffering to as not kosher is the granting of an S3, not the academy itself. Many BoG members have said they think its a great idea.

 

My questions are still:

Why are you hesitant to go to the academy? you can do it as FAST as you want provided you have the background

 

What is it about the academy that you dislike?

 

Why should an ARTCC that has people coming from the Academy who have wished to do things that were asked of them take the extra time to teach you the software?

 

There is no longer any facility for RW people to byp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] training other than your obvious ability to "bust through" all the testing quickly since you already know the material.

 

Please understand I am not trying to imply anything, these are honest questions.

Richard Green

VATSIM Supervisor

SB Testing & Support Team

VRC Testing & Support Team

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George,

So if I read what you have written, I should be able to train and certify on certain positions with out the academy. Without clarifying certain positions, it becomes very vague and can be interpreted differently than the original intent.

 

Honestly, I can see how I should have some experience with the software of choice for controlling, and maybe by some form of demonstration that I can use the software efficiently. I believe that this could be done efficiently without having to attend the Academy. And proceed through position certification at an accelerated rate.

 

I also can see where a demonstration is needed where someone can handle the positions, but to over restrict is doing a disservice to VATSIM community. Discouraging those that want to “volunteerâ€

Richard Jenkins

richard(a)vatsim.net

"It's all fun and games until the cops show up."

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Posted: 21 Feb 2007 22:02 Post subject:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

My questions are still:

Why are you hesitant to go to the academy? you can do it as FAST as you want provided you have the background

 

What is it about the academy that you dislike?

 

 

 

Hesitant, No

 

Time restricted yes..

 

Again Free time is limited, due to RL commitments.

 

What I dislike is the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es that have to do with all the rules and Regs that I am already familiar with. Honestly, I can tell you that I personally would not pay any attention anyways, so that is a waste of time for the instructor and me.

 

As for the Training on the software of choice…..

There are Volunteers that I know, who are instructor rated that are willing to do this, but because of POLICY wont.

 

So I personally believe that the Policy of attending the Academy is over restrictive and demeaning.

 

This is not RL but Simulation!

 

As for testing through, there are no policies set for this.

 

Policy is Take a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], wait for instructor to sign you up for test. Take test. Wait for next available cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], take cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], Take test.

 

Very Time consuming, and overly restrictive IMHO.

 

So I hope this clears some questions for you..

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Hesitant, No

 

Time restricted yes..

 

Again Free time is limited, due to RL commitments.

 

What I dislike is the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es that have to do with all the rules and Regs that I am already familiar with. Honestly, I can tell you that I personally would not pay any attention anyways, so that is a waste of time for the instructor and me.

 

As for the Training on the software of choice…..

There are Volunteers that I know, who are instructor rated that are willing to do this, but because of POLICY wont.

 

So I personally believe that the Policy of attending the Academy is over restrictive and demeaning.

 

This is not RL but Simulation!

 

As for testing through, there are no policies set for this.

 

Policy is Take a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], wait for instructor to sign you up for test. Take test. Wait for next available cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], take cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], Take test.

 

Very Time consuming, and overly restrictive IMHO.

 

So I hope this clears some questions for you..

 

Just talk to VATUSA3 explain you are RW, and I sure he would allow you to just take the tests, if you are in fact RW then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

If time truly is an issue perhaps another region might work better for you that doesn't require an Academy.

 

At the end of the day, policy is policy. If you want to control in the US, you have to do the Academy. Based on your experience I am sure the training staff would accomidate you. I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume you have emailed [email protected] to ask for [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istance?

 

But saying you dont want to do it in the forums won't help you so as suggested contact the training director.

Richard Green

VATSIM Supervisor

SB Testing & Support Team

VRC Testing & Support Team

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What I'm confused about is the following:

 

IVAO Transfer Policy

Since VATUSA does not recognize ratings issued by the IVAO network, any current IVAO or former IVAO member requesting [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment in the VATUSA Division will be handled as any other new Division member. This means they will be required to undergo basic ATC training at the VATUSA ATC Academy prior to joining an ARTCC. However, IVAO members with a Student3 rating or higher are eligible to accelerate their training by performing an Over the Shoulder test via Sweatbox with an Academy instructor and by completing the Academy Final exam via the VATUSA Certification Center. From there, the member will be promoted to the Senior Student rating and will be asked to choose an ARTCC to be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned to. This can be accomplished by contacting a member of the training department. Current IVAO or former IVAO members with a rating lower than Senior Student will be required to complete the ATC Training Academy in full before being allowed to select an ARTCC to control at.

 

We have a policy - just recently enacted I might add - that states we can technically "fast-track" IVAO controllers through the program...

 

Why can we not create some sort of policy for the academy to expedite real world controllers? Verify there certificate - search it on the FAA site, get some sort of quick "test" in place for them to go through to prove there ability - then let them loose... I would think it would be blaintly obvious if they are lying about it or not after doing something like this - then do as others have spoke of in this thread... enforce some type of punishment if they are found to be lying.

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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Andrew the ability to verify a controller's credentials apparently has changed post 9/11 from what I gather.

 

I also told Darrin that he should contact VATUSA3 one post ago and [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ured him that I saw no reasons he couldn't be fast tracked provided he could p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the tests (which if he is in fact a real controller should have no difficulty in doing).

 

As GSM has pointed out in numerous threads, the auto C-1 was abused as VATSIM has email folders full of "real" controllers who proved to be bogus.

 

I can't see it being an issue with Darrin, but if it is, I will personally volunteer a few hours of my time to help him if VATUSA3 can't himself.

Richard Green

VATSIM Supervisor

SB Testing & Support Team

VRC Testing & Support Team

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Hesitant, No

 

Time restricted yes..

 

Again Free time is limited, due to RL commitments.

 

What I dislike is the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es that have to do with all the rules and Regs that I am already familiar with. Honestly, I can tell you that I personally would not pay any attention anyways, so that is a waste of time for the instructor and me.

 

As for the Training on the software of choice…..

There are Volunteers that I know, who are instructor rated that are willing to do this, but because of POLICY wont.

 

So I personally believe that the Policy of attending the Academy is over restrictive and demeaning.

 

This is not RL but Simulation!

 

As for testing through, there are no policies set for this.

 

Policy is Take a cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], wait for instructor to sign you up for test. Take test. Wait for next available cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], take cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts], Take test.

 

Very Time consuming, and overly restrictive IMHO.

 

So I hope this clears some questions for you..

 

DEMEANING??? Wow, what an attitude Darrin! Like I said in my original post, I came to VATSIM last May. I too thought it was "demeaing". Here I was. A fully trained retired REAL WORLD (want my autograph?) Air Traffic Controller. And I had to go through this demeaning academy. My gosh, I had attended the REAL academy for crying out loud. 30 of us started that January back in "The day" and come June ONLY 8 of us went on to the dream career we all wanted. So I've got to put up with these demeaning individuals who want to treat me like I am some kid who has no clue what ATC is much less how to do it? ALL this taxpayer supplied training I had received and I am being DEMEANED AND have to lower myself to do what EVERYONE else had to do. They had to be kidding? NO Way I had to go through that?? Well, NO they were NOT kidding and NO they didn't bend the rules for little ole me. No I did not get to go to the head of the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and byp[Mod - Happy Thoughts] their policies. When I started meeting everyone at that demeaing stupid wanna be academy, I started seeing something I did not expect. I saw dedication. I saw people who admitted they were in a lot of cases, "wannabee's" I saw people who, even though this ain't "RL BUT A SIMULATION", want to make it as realistic as possible. The few days I "wasted" at the academy allowed me to learn the radar simulation. It more importantly showed me there were many folks who maybe would never get the chance to do what ME, YOU and Aaron have been blessed to do, but who LOVED ATC as much as I did, mayble more. Yeah, I didn't need that "wannabe" academy nor did I need to wait the 30 days in grade to go from S3 to Instructor. But they were the RULES. And until those who started this decide to change the rules back, I decided not to fight it but rather work within it. My goal here is to help these"wannabee's" experience something they more than likely will never get to do in the RL WORLD. After all THEY did not knock on our doors and beg us to join this. Darrin, why not adopt the attitude that just get it done? I ended up teaching more than being a student at the VATUSA academy. I changed my whole atitude towards those here and decided to help them rather than feel "demeaned". After all, looking at it from their prespective, maybe THEY were the ones being demeaned by ME and my atitude. Please quit wanting perferred treatment like I did at first and hell, JUST GET IT DONE........

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