Update to VATUSA Policy 07/05 - Senior Controller (C3)

[Brian Sperduto 856560]

My guess here Brian.... And it is only a guess.... He might be asking for one of his students who approached him with the issue. Crazy, I know.....

That is possible but reading his post it leads me to believe otherwise "I sent one in last week, then sent one in again tonight."

[Alex Bailey 969331]

I believe he went from C-1 to I-1 with the new policy, but wants to go ahead and get his C-3 also.

[Brian Sperduto 856560]

I believe he went from C-1 to I-1 with the new policy, but wants to go ahead and get his C-3 also.

Correct that being the case, you would apply for the rating if one wished after that person no longer held a higher rating (I1 etc...). Only time you can apply for the rating is when you presently hold a C1 rating, if you are higher than that then you would apply after you return to C1. Any time accomeulated at a rating higher than C1 also counts toward your 200 hours requirement.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Haha wow... I think I'm going to keep it simple and stick with my C-1 for ZOB controlling.

 

I have an I1, but wanted to apply for the C3 so that I could control as a C3 in ZOB, my visiting ARTCC. Nevermind. I'll stick with the C1 in ZOB, and I1 in ZDV. If you need clarification as to why I wouldn't use the I1 in ZOB, please see page 1.

[Lakhbir Singh 936840]

Benton, thank you for clarifying what I meant. I tend to have trouble putting stuff into words That's why I was hoping my hours could count towards my C3 since I was actually mentoring during that time logged in as an observer. I couldn't login as EWR_M_TWR because I would've had to login as EWR_M_TWR, MMU_M_TWR etc.

 

 

Just on that topic, i will need some clariffication,when i start my training and i get to C1,is there a chance of me being upgraded to S3?if that makes any sense?

 

cheers

 

Lak

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

I'd have to say that it's more important what position you are certified for and able to log in as than what your rating is. Aside from the positions you are able to control - the ratings mean jack.

[Harold Rutila 974112]

Lak, you'll have your S3 before your C1. If you're in VATUSA, you'll take the S3 test after TRACON (Approach) certification by your home ARTCC. Then, you'll be trained for Center and get your C1 after taking the C1 test. After meeting the requirements for the C3 upgrade, you can then submit a C3 upgrade.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

It's like Summer re-runs. I go away for 6 months, return, and I''m still seeing old episodes of I love Lucy!

 

Bottom line is, anyone can instruct. If you know how the game is played, you can take your neighbor, sit as an "obs", or on Team Speak, and teach him/her how to play this Air Traffic Control Video Game, and turn out a good controller. All your neighbor has to do now is go throught the red tape and paperwork to be able to play. Of course they will need the approval from someone that has probably never flown an aircraft, must less controlled an aircraft as a controller.

[Alex Bailey 969331]

It's like Summer re-runs. I go away for 6 months, return, and I''m still seeing old episodes of I love Lucy!

 

Bottom line is, anyone can instruct. If you know how the game is played, you can take your neighbor, sit as an "obs", or on Team Speak, and teach him/her how to play this Air Traffic Control Video Game, and turn out a good controller. All your neighbor has to do now is go throught the red tape and paperwork to be able to play. Of course they will need the approval from someone that has probably never flown an aircraft, must less controlled an aircraft as a controller.

 

And that approval will come from someone who knows exactly what they are doing on this network. Lets not discount the division and the staff you *used* to run. VATUSA does a fine job, whether those who comprise of it have real world experience or not.

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Meanwhile, as I read over some of the above, its true that a lot of members have left and are leaving. The entire video game is now more complicated than ever. As much as I know about VATSIM, it is hard for me to comprehend the new rules. And now there is Pilot Training Academy???

 

What ever happened to the having fun part? What is there to entice new members and not scare them away? If I were a new gamer and ran across this particular piece of software, I think I would have to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]. Remember, it is a Video Game. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't go through nearly as much scrutiny going back to an airline job as I did on VATSIM.

 

Maybe it's because the airline's apporval came from someone who knew exactly what they are doing

 

D

[Norman Blackburn]

Dennis,

 

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from in regards to new rules since none have been created since you were USA1. Pilot training is not yet implimented.

 

Even when it is it will be completely voluntary so as such, that airline job you got must have been a walk in the park

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

It was recurrent and upgrade training. And I wasn't rediculed when my crew made a mistake. But it was very clear what the rules of the game were. It was a whole lot less stressful than VATSIM. No wonder membership is suffering!

 

I was just reading another 5 page thread about TAXI instructions. And thats before the guy even puts the key in the ignition! Tell the pilot to taxi to runway whatever, and possibly hold short. Then, cleared for takeoff pretty much sums it up. If he doesn't fly in the right direction, the tell him to turn right or left. After he gets on his way, then leave him alone if it looks like he is not going to hit anything.

 

Oh, and the question about having the correct scenery. What is the difference??? The answer is is same. "What's the difference?"

 

 

But on another note, you mean to say that nothing was changed (Accomplished) since I was fired for not rapidly pushing the new rules through ?

[Andrew Doubleday]

How fantastic to see you back Dennis... sure do miss the good old days under your leadership at Chicago...

 

And you're right... who really cares? Fudging statistics and molding VATUSA into something that nobody wanted surely proved your stance there... I wonder why you're [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istance was "no longer necessary."

 

Hey, I've got an idea, (since you're back and all)... lets turn Chicago Center into playground for EC testing... that sure would bring back some great memories to share around the campfire...

 

 

Great to have you back,

 

AJ

[Norman Blackburn]

Dennis,

 

My words are chosen carefully so it would be a little silly to let you try and put words into my mouth. To reiterate, I said no rules had changed, in much the same way as I still don't play ping pong on the forum.

[Jeff Turner]

 

in much the same way as I still don't play ping pong on the forum.

 

I like ping pong... Not on the forum though... Does that mean or count for anything?

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

I wouldn't expect anything else Norm. You are a "Virtual Lawyer"

 

It's pretty simple. Customer satisfaction! If you were to purchase a shirt, and decided to return it, then have to fight all day long, fill out a ton of paperwork, go back and forth from department to department,, would you go back to the same store again?

 

Reading (ping ponging) throught the forums, I still see new members being told "read the manual" The really long Ambiguous manual that is necessary to play this game.

 

As far as the new ratings, it would take a virtual lawyer to explain it. Or 5 pages of a thread!!!

 

D

[Alex Bailey 969331]

Nobody is forcing you to be here, Dennis, so you must enjoy something?

 

There is no pilot training academy, and as Norman said, it will be completely voluntary. We have completed an entire new PRC which is a great tool for our new members to learn some material and enhance their experience. With this new PRC will come voluntary pilot ratings, which will start out as exams for the rating and then we have plans to allow "live" instruction or allow VA training programs or the ZLA Pilot program to issue ratings as well. Again, all voluntary.

 

I think it is a great accomplishment and I enjoy putting in the time and effort to make it everything it can be. I know Mike Bevington shares the same viewpoint as I do.

 

You hinted at there being no progress since you have left. I noticed that the new VATUSA1 doesn't ridicule his staff, and I noticed Gary includes the opinions of all of his staff (including ATMs, DATMs, and TAs) in his decisions. I think he is doing an amazing job, and I look forward to his continued success since he really does enjoy making progress for the benefit of the division. I wasn't an ATM under him for very long since you ruined the hobby for me, but I enjoyed every second of his (Gary's) leadership.

 

My .02

Edited May 20, 2008 at 05:35 PM by Guest

[Andrew Doubleday]

Dennis,

 

 

As slow as progress may be with VATUSA... do you actually think the way you were going about handling it was better? I mean common... lets not forget "Plan Can Chicago Center" and the all-so-important VATUSA mascot and the removal of FNO... That was extremely productive stuff!

 

I've got a question for you - why are you all of a sudden digging your nose back into this now? Especially how negative you appear to be coming across... Hell man... go back to whatever hole you crawled out of... took long enough for you to be removed for your actions as is. Are you honestly surprised at how scrutinized you were?

 

Oh yeah, might want to have Karen start spell checking your posts again, she might be able to help you better organize your thoughts and get the main points out more clearly.

 

For now, let Gary and his crew deal with VATUSA's happenings...

 

 

-AJ

[Paul Byrne]

Guys,

 

Don't feed the troll. He can do no harm anymore. Just ignore it otherwise you're giving him exactly what he wants.

 

Cheers!

Paul.

[Eric Shank Van Eenige 9979]

As slow as progress may be with VATUSA... do you actually think the way you were going about handling it was better? I mean common ... Oh yeah, might want to have Karen start spell checking your posts again, she might be able to help you better organize your thoughts and get the main points out more clearly.

Ironic, A.J. - you pick on Dennis for spelling, and in your post you wrote "common" instead of "come on".

 

Hee hee... I couldn't resist.

[Andrew Doubleday]

Thanks Eric... guess I'll eat me words on that one.

 

Point being, I've never met an individual on this network I've loathed so much...

 

I've said my piece - been waiting to do that since last July... I'm done now.

 

 

-AJ

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Oh pleze dont tel me that spellink is now on the controller test.....

 

Anyway, I am back because I have the right to be back. I wanted to join in just like you guys were doing 6 months ago. However, it seems that the pack loyalty has shifted.

 

As I was saying before all of the personbal shots, why has it gotten even more complicated for the newcomer and the older members. I can hang in there with most of the controllers. But now, I will have to start at the bottom and work my way back up. Not that recurrent training is a bad thing, but it is a Video Game that I do know a lot about. And this was the point we tried to get across a year ago. It is wayyyy too complicated, thus, causing a loss of membership.

 

It's taken me reading the above posts several time to try and grasp the structure. If it were that simple, the then the opening thread of this post wouldn't have grown to 5 pages.

 

BTW...Paul, you never got back with us on the statistics you promised about complexity and traffic data. I was so looking forward to that!

 

So, I have question to address. Now that I might control again, can I just plug in at any old (Non Major) facility and control? That's a pretty simple one that there should be a simple answer for.

 

D.....Troll ??????

[Harold Rutila 974112]

This unnecessarily political discussion is really quite stupid. It's pretty disappointing that a simple C3 policy topic is being treated as a rant-and-bash session against things that happened a long time ago. Aren't we done yet?

[Nicholas Bartolotta 912967]

Aren't we done yet?

 

Nope, if you don't mind, I've just got a few comments.

 

...why has it gotten even more complicated for the newcomer and the older members.

 

It's only as complicated as you make it.

 

Starting out as a new controller, you are trained in an ARTCC in Delivery/Ground/Tower operations, and once promoted to S-1, are able to control the 'smaller' Towered facilities. If you want to control the advanced/busier facilities, you get a bit of additional training for that. Same applies for Approach, then you get your S-3. Then you are trained in Center operations, and move toward your C-1.

 

The problem is when people don't want to learn, don't want to succeed, and don't want to put in the effort - but somehow are able to find excuses to claim that they're entitled to control whatever they want.. Every ARTCC has their own opinion on where they set the balancing point on the scale of realism vs. game. If you pick an ARTCC that is too far toward realism in your opinion, then either shape up, or move out and find an ARTCC that more suits your level of interest in this hobby.

 

Now that I might control again, can I just plug in at any old (Non Major) facility and control? That's a pretty simple one that there should be a simple answer for.

 

You're right, that is a simple question! And it's answered right on the VATUSA policies page:

 

10) Roster Removal and Reinstatement

 

A. Controllers who do not provide air traffic control services within their [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned ARTCC for a specified period of time may be removed from that ARTCC’s list of active or visiting controllers. Facility ATMs should retain information on these controllers’ certifications for a period of one year after the last recorded date of their air traffic control service activity.

 

B. Controllers who are dropped from an ARTCC’s controller roster, or from their list of approved visiting controllers due to inactivity, and who return to control at that facility within six months of the last recorded date of their air traffic control service activity, may return with the same rights/certifications as when they left, and shall not be required to re-certify on the position before providing air traffic control services. Such controllers should however notify the ARTCC ATM of their intent to return, and familiarize themselves with any SOP/LOA changes that have been put into place since their last air traffic control services activity.

 

C. Controllers who leave a facility for more than six months but less than one year may be required, at the discretion of the ARTCC ATM, to undergo OTS evaluation(s) to demonstrate that they have retained the ability to provide air traffic control services in that airspace before being allowed to return with the same certifications as before.

 

D. Controllers who leave a facility for more than one year lose the automatic right to control at that facility and if they return, will retain their controller rating (S1/S3/C1/C3), but may be required by the ARTCC ATM to undergo the same certification process required of visiting controllers to again control at that facility

[Dennis Whitley 952478]

Nick, Thanks for the answer. I think it was "yes" . We'll see how long I can remain on Atlanta Center when I sign on before somebody boots me for not having all the little green boxes in my "Binder" filled in Guess I'm glad I didn't trust the person that stated "Nothing has changed in the rules".

 

Harold, I apologize for the behavior of all VATSAM members. but it will never end. I've been away for a while and it was like coming back to an old re-run of I love Lucy. The same old players with the same old agenda. It is rather embar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing and I understand your frustrations. But if you think this forum is bad, you should see the private VATUSA ATM Forum. They even get to call each other names because it doesn't fall under the VATSIM R&Rs!!!

 

It is a shame that more time is spent in the Forums than on line controlling. Yes, I have the stats to back that up too.

 

In the words of the Dog Whisperer. Stay calm and submissive, not aggressive behavior. , Shhh, shhh, shhh.

 

Umm, the "VAT Whispere" Now theres an idea Rehabilitate controllers, and train pilots.

 

D