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Will there be an Oshkosh event?


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Well I'm sure there are plenty of controllers in VATUSA that would be willing to help with such an event.... however ZAU has decided to lock their doors to visiting controllers for an excess of 90 days.

 

I may be wrong, but reference VATNA's visiting controller policy which is readily available on www.vatna.net:

 

5. No visiting controller policy may arbitrarily suspend visiting controller procedures, except in the following instance:

a. A new facility chief/manager may request a temporary suspension of visiting controllers while establishing new administrative and operational procedures within their new facility. The Division Director may review and approve a temporary suspension request, but such a request shall not exceed 60 days. If a determination is made that more time is needed after 60 days, the request must be approved by VATNA. In no case shall the aggregate of all time [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with the suspension exceed 90 days.

 

On April 5th 2008 Chicago suspended its acceptance of visiting controllers. After 90 days had p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed on July 8th Chicago arbitrarily extended this with no end date, which if the policy above is true, is a violation of VATNA policy. As of today Chicago has not allowed visiting controllers for a total of 109 days.

 

My point is, if Chicago doesn't have the controller force to provide services for this event, why don't they unlock their doors to experienced controllers who can.

Nick

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Well I'm sure there are plenty of controllers in VATUSA that would be willing to help with such an event.... however ZAU has decided to lock their doors to visiting controllers for an excess of 90 days.

 

I may be wrong, but reference VATNA's visiting controller policy which is readily available on www.vatna.net:

 

5. No visiting controller policy may arbitrarily suspend visiting controller procedures, except in the following instance:

a. A new facility chief/manager may request a temporary suspension of visiting controllers while establishing new administrative and operational procedures within their new facility. The Division Director may review and approve a temporary suspension request, but such a request shall not exceed 60 days. If a determination is made that more time is needed after 60 days, the request must be approved by VATNA. In no case shall the aggregate of all time [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with the suspension exceed 90 days.

 

On April 5th 2008 Chicago suspended its acceptance of visiting controllers. After 90 days had p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed on July 8th Chicago arbitrarily extended this with no end date, which if the policy above is true, is a violation of VATNA policy. As of today Chicago has not allowed visiting controllers for a total of 109 days.

 

My point is, if Chicago doesn't have the controller force to provide services for this event, why don't they unlock their doors to experienced controllers who can.

 

I would suggest that Chicargo stop being such a "Dog in the Manger", and at least allow Visiting Controllers in the Oshkosh area.

 

If they are short of controllers, the continuing suspension of Visiting Controllers, will only server to discourge more potentail controls from joining Chicago.

 

Maybe there could be a statement from the Division Director as to why this situation has dragged on for so long. ?

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Geoffrey and Nicholas,

 

While I truly have no idea what's going on in ZAU, or how they have gotten a waiver for over 90 days, you have to remember that the ability to get a waiver is in place for a reason. I know at ZLA, we have had to get that waiver before simply because we had a delluge of of new students, and our instructional team was having a hard time keeping up with training all the new guys, our existing guys, and our visiting controllers. The obvious first thing we had to eliminate (temporarily) was visiting controllers. It's not that we have anything against visiting controllers, in fact quite the opposite, but our own controllers come first, and need the time of the INS/Mentors.

 

You have to remember that it's not just a matter of ZAU opening the doors and allowing visiting controllers. They still have to train all you guys on local procedures, check you out, etc. I know I certainly wouldn't let you guys just jump in and control in ZLA without first being checked out/trained on local procedures, and I can imagine they are the same way.

Bryan Wollenberg

ZLA!

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While I truly have no idea what's going on in ZAU, or how they have gotten a waiver for over 90 days, you have to remember that the ability to get a waiver is in place for a reason.

 

The policy states: "In no case shall the aggregate of all time [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociated with the suspension exceed 90 days." The allowed period is 60 days, with a waiver available for an additional 90 days. The 90 day waiver is not what they are questioning, it's the 109 day period that has p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed...which exceeds any "waiverable" length of time.

 

I should add, I too have no insight as to what the situation in ZAU is, this is just my opinion based on what's been said on the forums.

Nick Bartolotta - ZSE Instructor, pilot at large

 

"Just fly it on down to within a inch of the runway and let it drop in from there."

- Capt. Don Lanham, ATA Airlines

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Geoffrey and Nicholas,

 

While I truly have no idea what's going on in ZAU, or how they have gotten a waiver for over 90 days, you have to remember that the ability to get a waiver is in place for a reason. I know at ZLA, we have had to get that waiver before simply because we had a delluge of of new students, and our instructional team was having a hard time keeping up with training all the new guys, our existing guys, and our visiting controllers. The obvious first thing we had to eliminate (temporarily) was visiting controllers. It's not that we have anything against visiting controllers, in fact quite the opposite, but our own controllers come first, and need the time of the INS/Mentors.

 

You have to remember that it's not just a matter of ZAU opening the doors and allowing visiting controllers. They still have to train all you guys on local procedures, check you out, etc. I know I certainly wouldn't let you guys just jump in and control in ZLA without first being checked out/trained on local procedures, and I can imagine they are the same way.

 

As you proably well appreciate, controlling at Oshkosh during "Oshkosh Week" is very different to any other other airport in the world. For example, Tower control is purely Visual, and the Tower radio procedues are "unique".

Yes, using a Vatsim "Tower radar" might help a Tower Controller "cheat", but basically, it's a visual control.

 

My point is, that unless specially trained for Oshkosh, I suspect that your "trained" Chicago Controllers are just as unprepared for "Oshkosh Week" as any visiting controllers. However, all the necessary training information and procedures are avaiable in the form a a very comprehensive Air Venture Oshkosh Notams.

 

http://www.airventure.org/2008/flying/2008_notam.pdf

 

Once familar with this, I would have thought that any competent, visiting Vatsim Controller, would be sufficiently prepared to function at the Oshkosh Event.

 

Oshkosh Week has been simulated on Vatsim in past years ... it seems an unfortunate step backwards is now, for whatever reason it cannot.

 

Actually, the biggest hurdle in a Vatsim Oshkosh Event is the education of the PILOTS, and the ability of them to follow the unique procedures that Oshkosh requires.

 

I really miss the posive attitude that created Vatsim.

Back in the early days of vatsim, there was a community spirit, that together, we could achieve anything.

Now all I see is negativity, petty bickering in the forums, and pathetic power struggles.

 

Unfortunaly, I cannot make it to Oshkosh this year, but I am still looking forward to being there in spirit, in some form of Virtual Oshkosh.

If it cannot be on Vatsim, it will be elsewhere

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My point is, that unless specially trained for Oshkosh, I suspect that your "trained" Chicago Controllers are just as unprepared for "Oshkosh Week" as any visiting controllers.

 

They ain't my "trained" Chicago controllers. I'm from ZLA. My point is that on the network, there are still Visiting Controller policies that need to be followed, Oshkosh or not. If it's Chicago's policy that you need to be a visiting controller and get checked out prior to working in their airspace, then that's something you need to follow, period.

 

As far as the actual waiver is concerned, Nicholas and friends, if 109 days has p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed, then yes, there is something wrong. The policy seems pretty straight-forward to me. If they still aren't letting people in, it's probably time to contact USA1 or NA1 or whoever issued the waiver, and see what's going on. My presumption, and I'm just guessing here, is that these waivers (like many policies) are on a gentlemen's agreement. I doubt Gary or Craig mark down the 90 day period on their calendars. In the mean time, things happen, there are bigger fish to fry, and you forget the waiver was in place. It happens. A friendly email reminder might be perfect.

Bryan Wollenberg

ZLA!

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That's crazy! Never knew that much went into it. I'm especially fascinated by FAA Pink Shirts on platforms.

 

It is an amazing week. The Logistics just to organize the event is staggering.

 

see http://www.airventure.org/

 

Especially check out their MultiMedia/Video section.

 

One Video in particular , "OSHKOSH: The Spirit of Aviation" sums up Oshkosh very well.

 

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid626910413?bclid=1369819620&bctid=1381694270

 

Looking at the AirVenture Website should make you want to go to Oshkosh, or at least fire up your Flight Sim, and take a flight on Vatsim. !!

 

 

FREE -- FSX Photorealistic Scenery and Addon Scenery available for Download from

 

http://fs-mp.com/oshkosh/scenery/oshkosh3.zip

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I attempted to obtain permission in writing from Jason Vodnansky to visit and was denied. I talked with him on team speak as I did not fully understand his reasoning and it was pretty clear that they have no training staff in place to handle visitors at the moment. The way I read the policy is that I needed to obtain written approval from the ATM in order to control if I wanted to visit - which I figured no problems for someone like me. Little did I know... The laywer-like terminology of that VC policy sure had me floundered...

 

I can sympathize with the limited training staff, but some of the individuals who would like to get in there and visit again (myself included) are very experienced with the airspace and likely wouldn't create any sort of issue for their limited training resources... I was informed this should all be changed by early-mid August.

 

I'm no longer privy to the on-goings of ZAU, but Jason runs a pretty tight ship and is fairly secretive about things behind the scenes... I have no doubt something is being worked on.

 

However, it does bother me how long this has all taken over there though... I've already expressed this concern to VATUSA staff back when I left in March, but it appears little has taken shape over there over the past 3-4 months. All of the training material myself and members of the previous staff had created does not appear to be available for public use - which is still beyond my understanding to this point... what IS currently in place policy-wise there is limited at best.

 

Just disapointing to see this happen at a facility I once really loved being a part of... many of us put a lot of heart into that place to make something good out of it. Seeing it in its present state hurts... again, I know little of the on-goings there, however. It would be nice for someone to fill us in on the plans though... being left in the dark does nobody any good.

 

 

Regards,

 

AJ

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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We all have to take responsibility for our actions. For people whom clam to love our airspace so much, they seemed to leave in a hurry not caring that they may not be let back in.

 

What do I have to do to get this post locked? It's way off topic and the original intent of this post was answered way back on page 1!

Matt Bartels
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Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own and not representative of the official opinion of the VATSIM Board of Governors

 

 

 

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We all have to take responsibility for our actions. For people whom clam to love our airspace so much, they seemed to leave in a hurry not caring that they may not be let back in.

 

What do I have to do to get this post locked? It's way off topic and the original intent of this post was answered way back on page 1!

 

 

Don't even get started with me, Matt... agreed. This can probably be locked.

 

 

-AJ

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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We all have to take responsibility for our actions. For people whom clam to love our airspace so much, they seemed to leave in a hurry not caring that they may not be let back in.

 

What do I have to do to get this post locked? It's way off topic and the original intent of this post was answered way back on page 1!

 

As long as you're contributing to the off-topicness, then I'll pitch in some sentiment as well. I don't know what the situation is, so I can't comment on it. However, there are several moderators of these forums that know how to do their job and when. When they come around to checking these posts they'll take the appropriate action that they see fit.

 

Your continuing to defend something in this post that a lot of people don't know about is simply going to fuel the discussion. Whether it be you are embarr[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed, dismayed, upset, or angry about some of the content in this thread, it is not yours to decide if it should be locked or not.

 

The Oshkosh event would certainly be a difficult to pull off. Personally, I think that the tough part would be organizing the pilots, and whether the pilots be up for exactly the type of maneuvering and responsiveness that is necessary. And considering the current level of detail with the network, it would more be a show for the controllers than the pilots. Actually, it could kind of work out that way. We could have pilots compete on their Flight Simulator handling skills (I don't want to say on their "flying skills" because this is not nearly the same thing). A couple people could supervise the action at different points and evaluate pilots on their communications, responsiveness, and ability to handle Flight Sim/Xplane.

 

It wouldn't be an Oshkosh event directly comparable to what happens real-world, but it would be an adaptation on the theme for VATSIM.

Steve Ogrodowski

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Wow.... I just got caught this thread and this is all that I'll say...

 

When ZJX fell on its face prior to me taking over, everyone bailed like the house was on fire. I came in, put the fire out, and commenced the rebuild. I too asked to for a waiver and an extension for VC's. Suddenly, it was as if I had the coolest piece of real estate on the VATSIM map, and everyone wanted back in. Not to participate, or help rebuild, mind you but to "see what I was up to" and to "help" with making policy. When offered a staff position, or a position of accountability, I was politely rejected. Add in the accusatory "elitist environment" and "exclusive, and exclusionary" remarks, and viola! Instant drama! See the resemblance here?

 

Not a single person who is griping wants to actually participate in the rebuild, but you want to have a voice in the rebuild. Garbage. And I've said it in other mediums as well. If you want to participate, then do so. If you want to sit around and complain about being excluded, but not do anything, you're better off saying nothing, and remaining at your high traffic, high operation facilities.

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Thanks Bo.

My sentiments exactly

Matt Bartels
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Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own and not representative of the official opinion of the VATSIM Board of Governors

 

 

 

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Bo, we've had this discussion on team speak with regards to Chicago and my experience there (most of these sly remarks towards jumping ship early and what not are obviously being directed at me). I spent a good 8 months developing training material for the facility (with others) which still has yet to see the light of day... I asked the questions I needed answers to when new management stepped back in March and was given answers I was flat-out unhappy with. So I left. I was tired of waiting. I played that game far too long. "Jumping ship" early is an extremely false accusation to make.

 

Yes - I'm obviously sour about the situation there (Regardless of what any of you say, I really did care for that facility and airspace, and still do - so yes, it hurts me to see in its present state)... long story short - very sticky area which I've already expressed my concerns about to VATUSA staff... at this rate, even if I'm not welcome back (as Matt has hinted at), I'm perfectly fine with that. And as Bo has stated... I've already moved and the situation is now out of my hands unless I go back - which is also true. But I still care about the place, regardless of the fact that I moved.

 

As I've also stated before, I'm in a facility with highly motivated and open-minded individuals who want to learn as much as they can and they, at least, appreciate my enthusiasm and effort - a far cry from ZAU. It's not simply about the "high traffic/operations" that keeps me here at ZLA. It's the motivation of the people here that keeps me here more than anything. And again... please don't start with me on this (Matt or Bo)... too much of my time wasted there...

 

 

Best Regards,

 

AJ

Andrew James Doubleday | Twitch Stream: Ground_Point_Niner

University of North Dakota | FAA Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI) GraduateGPN_Horizontal_-_Tertiary.thumb.png.9d7edc4d985ab7ed1dc60b92a5dfa85c.png

 

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Not a single person who is griping wants to actually participate in the rebuild, but you want to have a voice in the rebuild. Garbage. And I've said it in other mediums as well. If you want to participate, then do so. If you want to sit around and complain about being excluded, but not do anything, you're better off saying nothing, and remaining at your high traffic, high operation facilities.

 

It's kind of hard to do that when an ARTCC doesn't allow visiting controllers beyond which VATNA policy states.

 

AD - You did the best you could with what you had. It's unfortunate that the majority didn't want to jump on board and get the ship in the right direction. I applaud you for leaving, I would have done the same thing. I'm happy that you found somewhere where your motivation and organizational skills will be found welcome.

Nick

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well OSHKOSH 2008, one of the biggest aviation Events in the world, came & went, and Vatsim Pilots ( and Controllers) completely missed out on what could have been a fantastic experience. During the week of Oshkosh, traffic on Vatsim, in and out of Oshkosh was minimal.

 

Instead of making up excuse why it could not be done, at least one other Online Flying Community ( No names mentioned) went ahead, and held a most successful week of flying and controlling. 3949 Oshkosh Airport movements, with most of those aircraft & pilots flying the official Real World Ripon-Fiske arrival.

 

Lets hope Oshkosh on Vastim is open to Guest Controllers by Oshkosh 2009

 

Geoff

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I was at Oshkosh for the whole week. It is a marvel that everything goes so smoothly with so many aircraft operations. With that said, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to REALISTICALLY simulate OSH on VATSIM. For one, controllers merely use their eyes to identify traffic. Radar is not used. In other words, something we don't have on VATSIM. Even with VRC tower view, the resolution on most computer monitors is not adequate enough to see individual traffic (without data tags on) at a normal zoom 3 miles away or more. Secondly, there are many experimental aircraft (planes that you have never heard of) flying into OSH, and those aircraft will appear as a "paper airplane" to both controllers using tower view, and other pilots. Thirdly, (and unfortunately true), the operating environment is unsuitable for the average vatsim pilot. On the radio, only the controllers speak, no pilot communication. Pilots acknowledge instructions by rocking their wings (another that that is impossible to simulate). Which ties into the fact that both the data and voice servers would be unable to accommodate the traffic and voice data issues at this time. Everyone knows that there is sometimes a small to substantial delay in voice and data transfer. Imagine pilots trying to say "say again (only to get stepped on)" because the controller's transmission was broken up. And of course, there would always be those pilots who do not follow instructions at all, or do not read the NOTAM.

 

Above is just some of the challenges that we face to implement a realistic OSH event on VATSIM. But maybe with better data/voice servers coming our way (Please?), OSH 2009 might be possible.

Scott Mulhollan - ZAB Instructor

ZAB Training Administrator

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I was at Oshkosh for the whole week. It is a marvel that everything goes so smoothly with so many aircraft operations. With that said, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to REALISTICALLY simulate OSH on VATSIM. For one, controllers merely use their eyes to identify traffic. Radar is not used. In other words, something we don't have on VATSIM. Even with VRC tower view, the resolution on most computer monitors is not adequate enough to see individual traffic (without data tags on) at a normal zoom 3 miles away or more. Secondly, there are many experimental aircraft (planes that you have never heard of) flying into OSH, and those aircraft will appear as a "paper airplane" to both controllers using tower view, and other pilots. Thirdly, (and unfortunately true), the operating environment is unsuitable for the average vatsim pilot. On the radio, only the controllers speak, no pilot communication. Pilots acknowledge instructions by rocking their wings (another that that is impossible to simulate). Which ties into the fact that both the data and voice servers would be unable to accommodate the traffic and voice data issues at this time. Everyone knows that there is sometimes a small to substantial delay in voice and data transfer. Imagine pilots trying to say "say again (only to get stepped on)" because the controller's transmission was broken up. And of course, there would always be those pilots who do not follow instructions at all, or do not read the NOTAM.

 

Above is just some of the challenges that we face to implement a realistic OSH event on VATSIM. But maybe with better data/voice servers coming our way (Please?), OSH 2009 might be possible.

 

The above, "controllers only talking", "rocking wings", is only used at Oshkosh when it is really busy.

I think it is reasonable to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that it will never get that busy on Vatsim, and that the Vatsim Tower would be able to "be [Mod - Happy Thoughts]isted" by Radar, refer to aircraft by their callsign, and be able to use 2 way Radio Communications.

 

Only a small proportion to total Vatsim membership are "active". This number of Active pilots & contrlollers do not seem to "overload" the servers, so why should that be an issue if some were flying at Oshkosh. You seem to be implying, that is there was a Vatsim Oshkosh, all those remaiing "Dormant" pilots would sudenly decide to log into Vatsim, and overload the servers. NOT going to happen -- athough it would be nice to see some of them return.

 

Vatsim is a "simulation", and certain allowances and compromises have to be accepted, because of the limitations of the simulation environment. One learns to live with that limitation, and not obsess over it.

 

Rather than being negative and finding reasons why it cannot be done, it might be more productive to discuss how it CAN be done. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this year it was Simulated by another Online Community, and it worked very well.

With 3949 Aircraft movements over 10 days, it was quite workable. Even at 4 times that, it would still have been workable.

 

It would be nice to think that one might one day see 16,000 airport movements at a single airport, over 10 days on Vatsim

 

One can dream, but at the end of the day, it would seem that it is up what the Vatsim controllers want, and what they are willing to do. With some reasonable planning and information made availabel to pilots, I know that most vatsim Pilots could handle an Oshkosh arrival, and those that initially have difficulty, would end up flying like a pro by the end of the week,

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Good I'm glad you had your fun little oshkosh event on another network. Maybe if they cater to you so well you should praise them on their own forums and not brag about non vatsim events on the official vatsim fourms.

Matt Bartels
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Good I'm glad you had your fun little oshkosh event on another network. Maybe if they cater to you so well you should praise them on their own forums and not brag about non vatsim events on the official vatsim fourms.

 

What a sad attitude from the Chicago ARTCC (NON) Events Director.

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Ok. If you want make a full slam against my ability to man position then that's your prerogative. I'm sure that the events director for the other Chicago has plenty of events up his sleeve and is doing his job.

 

Try putting together events for every little thing happening IRW and having 4 center controllers and 2 approach controllers . ZAU is rebuilding. Trust me, there are about 10 events up my sleeve that I can not put on because we plain don't have the staffing.

 

Maybe you should look into the reasons why some events cant go on before all out slamming a guy for not doing his job. There are bigger fish to fry in ZAU right now. If you were around VATSIM during the Oshkosh event you would have seen that it was staffed for the first and last day of the event. Wait, you were too busy enjoying the services of another network. I did appreciate the report though in the VATSIM forums of how great one of their competitors was.

 

For those of you that want to have the ZAU experience on VATSIM. I welcome you all to join us for FNO tomorrow night! We will be staffing ORD and MDW. We'll see you there!

Matt Bartels
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## vpmkt (at) vatsim.net
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Unless otherwise stated, opinions are my own and not representative of the official opinion of the VATSIM Board of Governors

 

 

 

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I was at Oshkosh for the whole week. It is a marvel that everything goes so smoothly with so many aircraft operations. With that said, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to REALISTICALLY simulate OSH on VATSIM. For one, controllers merely use their eyes to identify traffic. Radar is not used. In other words, something we don't have on VATSIM. Even with VRC tower view, the resolution on most computer monitors is not adequate enough to see individual traffic (without data tags on) at a normal zoom 3 miles away or more. Secondly, there are many experimental aircraft (planes that you have never heard of) flying into OSH, and those aircraft will appear as a "paper airplane" to both controllers using tower view, and other pilots. Thirdly, (and unfortunately true), the operating environment is unsuitable for the average vatsim pilot. On the radio, only the controllers speak, no pilot communication. Pilots acknowledge instructions by rocking their wings (another that that is impossible to simulate). Which ties into the fact that both the data and voice servers would be unable to accommodate the traffic and voice data issues at this time. Everyone knows that there is sometimes a small to substantial delay in voice and data transfer. Imagine pilots trying to say "say again (only to get stepped on)" because the controller's transmission was broken up. And of course, there would always be those pilots who do not follow instructions at all, or do not read the NOTAM.

 

Above is just some of the challenges that we face to implement a realistic OSH event on VATSIM. But maybe with better data/voice servers coming our way (Please?), OSH 2009 might be possible.

 

The above, "controllers only talking", "rocking wings", is only used at Oshkosh when it is really busy.

 

Only a small proportion to total Vatsim membership are "active". This number of Active pilots & contrlollers do not seem to "overload" the servers, so why should that be an issue if some were flying at Oshkosh. You seem to be implying, that is there was a Vatsim Oshkosh, all those remaiing "Dormant" pilots would sudenly decide to log into Vatsim, and overload the servers. NOT going to happen -- athough it would be nice to see some of them return.

 

 

With regards to when it is "really busy", I was at OSH for the whole week, and during the arrival periods it was ALWAYS "really busy".

 

About the server overload, have you ever flown into a major event? Specifically the MITRE event at ORD in January. Planes were skipping all over the place. That's why I mentioned for us to pull off a REALISTIC OSH, there needs to be server upgrades.

 

 

Of course....everything of what I said above are the challenges of pulling off a REALISTIC Oshkosh. Of course, we could do it your way or the another networks way, but it simply wouldn't be realistic.

Scott Mulhollan - ZAB Instructor

ZAB Training Administrator

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