Difference in terminology - UK and US...

[James Harvey 959593]

I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences in terminology between the UK ATC and US ATC? I am training for my S1 in the UK but am considering joining an ARTCC as a visiting controller.

 

Main things I would like to know about:

Takeoff procedures

Landing procedures

Handoffs

 

and anything else that varies from the UK terminology...I would of course take a practice session despite being S1, just to get used to the terminology But anything I can learn now would be ace.

 

Cheers

James

[Justin A. Martin]

In the US there's "Position and hold" instead of "Line up and wait". The zeroes in callsigns and wind speed are not spoken. For example, "Speedbird 0 2 4" would be "Speedbird 24". Also, "Wind 090 at 09" would be "Wind 090 at 9". Callsigns are spoken in groups. For example, "Virgin three five five" would be "Virgin three fifty-five". Some minor stuff. There's much more, but these are just some I could think of.

[David Klain 874106]

Justin..not quite.

 

Position in Hold is being replaced by Line up and Wait in the U.S.

 

Leading zeros in callsigns ARE called out (big discussion on this in these forums and the reference was cited...do a forum search to see). There were many people who argued U.S. doesn't call out leading zeros until they were shown the ref. For example, if a United flight is 091, controller would call him "United zero nine one"...most U.S. carriers just don't use leading zeros in their callsigns.

 

There typically are NOT leading zeros in wind speeds, hence those aren't called. On the other hand, headings/directons DO have leading zeros (a controller will never say "turn left, fly heading ninety"...he will say "turn left, fly heading zero nine zero".

 

Best place to see US Phraseoogy will be in one of the ARTCC training pages.

 

all the best,

Dave

[James Harvey 959593]

Cheers both of you, I will take a look David

[Alex Bailey 969331]

The VATUSA training page includes a very nice reference section with plenty of information on US procedure.

 

http://www.vatusa.net/training/reference.html

[Davor Kusec 990407]

Line up and wait sounds unprofessional

[Mat Lawrence 965555]

And as always, there is a difference between the published standards (both sim and real) and what people say in reality.

 

Should I start a thread on the validity of the phrase "with you" again

[Wyatt Najaro 839595]

Best place to see US Phraseoogy will be in one of the ARTCC training pages.

 

go to the source for some accurate information

 

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/ATC.pdf

 

it's "position and hold"

 

reference:

 

FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-9-4, TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD

Edited July 21, 2008 at 01:49 AM by Guest

[Matt Bromback]

And as always, there is a difference between the published standards (both sim and real) and what people say in reality.

 

Should I start a thread on the validity of the phrase "with you" again

 

well said...

[David Klain 874106]

Actually Wyatt last March the FAA FSDO's put out guidance that the US is going to transition to the international phraseology "line up and wait" instead of "position and hold" in an effort ot reduce runway incursions. There are a number of references to this decision on their website including Fact Sheets and FSDO safety announcements. The reference you cite is the February version of the 7110 and was published prior to this announcement.

 

While the transition is not yet complete, I'm hearing "line up and wait" more and more in my real-world flying.

 

Dave

[Scott Johnston 890281]

While the transition is not yet complete, I'm hearing "line up and wait" more and more in my real-world flying.

 

Dave

Where?

[Benton Wilmes]

Just for everyone's reference, the changes to the 7110 become effective July 31st. You can download the changes that are made at this link:

 

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/CHG1ATC7-31-08.pdf

 

So that is the most up to date publication of the 7110. While there was a TIPH change made, it doesn't have anything to do with the phraseology, just the weather. So not saying you are wrong Dave, but the FAA hasn't required its controllers to start using that phraseology just yet (and trust me, there is no rush).

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Here's a couple of the fact sheets Dave was talking about. One from March, and another from last week (July 14, 2008):

 

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=10133

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=10166

 

The point(s) of interest are if you scroll way down to Air Traffic Procedures. If you read the first one from March, you'll see that they started another study of the phraseology for several different phases of flight. Obviously mentioned there is transitioning from our current phraseology on TIPH to the ICAO "Line Up and Wait."

 

Then in the most recent one from last week, they report that they have completed said study and determined with definition that procedures need to be adjusted. The first change that they have made (which went effective 18 May) was about the explicit taxi instructions. They also confirm basically that in the future one of the other required changes will be the TIPH "Line Up and Wait." It doesn't look like it will be in the upcoming revision of the .65, but it will appear somewhere, sometime. lol. It wouldn't surprise me if managers were encouraging or asking controllers to use it now.

 

If you go to this link you can view all the fact sheets:

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/

[Shawn Goldsworthy 925085]

Canada recently switched to "Line up and wait as well" from "Taxi to position".

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

I honestly don't understand this move to ICAO. The full taxi procedures, I can understand. It's there to prevent runway incursions. It's all the other stuff, the "Line up and wait," the ICAO flightplans etc., are just plain ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

[Shawn Goldsworthy 925085]

I honestly don't understand this move to ICAO. The full taxi procedures, I can understand. It's there to prevent runway incursions. It's all the other stuff, the "Line up and wait," the ICAO flightplans etc., are just plain ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

 

The flight plans themselves are fine. It's the 75 letters for equipment types that is just stupid.

[James Harvey 959593]

Hehe thanks guys, one thing that astounds me is that you clear two guys to land, in the UK we tell the one to land and the other one to continue approach number 2...it sounds better I think, and is safer.

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

Hehe thanks guys, one thing that astounds me is that you clear two guys to land, in the UK we tell the one to land and the other one to continue approach number 2...it sounds better I think, and is safer.

 

Not to get into one ATC system over the other, but the existing system here in the states is the busiest, most complex, and safest system in the world. When you start making drastic changes (i.e. major phraseology changes), you're just asking for trouble, IMO. And it's all for a reasoning that's still unbeknownst to me. Is it to cater to the international pilots? I have no clue. If that's the case, might as well have controllers who are fluent in 10 languages, and start using meters...or is it metres?

 

The flight plans themselves are fine. It's the 75 letters for equipment types that is just stupid.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. If you'd see what's required on the ATC-side of things, in dealing with ICAO flight plans, you'd flip your lid.

[Anthony Atkielski 985811]

If a pilot doesn't understand that TIPH and "line up and wait" mean the same thing, his English is too poor for him to be flying. The first time I heard the latter (without any advance exposure to it), I had no doubt that it meant the same thing as "taxi into position and hold."

 

In other words, if pilots don't recognize this, their communication skills in English are poor enough to get them into serious trouble with or without a phraseology change.

[Justin A. Martin]

Amen, Bryan. How does "Line up and wait" prevent more runway incursions than "Position and hold." It makes no sense. I as well feel that the FAA (slowly but surely) is moving their way to become more like ICAO. Do agree? Absolutly not. We have our way, they have theirs. ICAO FPs for RNAV in the US is a good example.

 

JM

[Wyatt Najaro 839595]

Actually Wyatt last March the FAA FSDO's put out guidance that the US is going to transition to the international phraseology "line up and wait" instead of "position and hold" in an effort ot reduce runway incursions. There are a number of references to this decision on their website including Fact Sheets and FSDO safety announcements. The reference you cite is the February version of the 7110 and was published prior to this announcement.

 

While the transition is not yet complete, I'm hearing "line up and wait" more and more in my real-world flying.

 

Dave

 

like I said its "position and hold" and yea theres a big ICAO switch going on right now but they've been trying to change this stuff forever we're talking about the FAA. Theres no point and running around telling everyone to say "line up and wait" until it's been changed. It is officially "position and hold" for FAA purposes and I can't think of any other way to say it.

 

The FSDO's tell the pilots to give them a heads up in case ATC fast tracks this stuff and it happens tomorrow it has nothing to do about when the FAA is actually going instruct there controllers to change the phraseology which will be done in a bullentin and via the 7110. They could change it next week or they could change it never theres no way to know with those people.

 

I find it hard to believe you heard a US controller say "line up and wait" thats completly incorrect at the moment and I have never ever heard it. Those of you saying that they are asking controllers to use "line up and wait" before theres an official docomeent supporting it are crazy. That would be a legal disaster if there was an incident in the course of using that phraseology (controllers intentially violating procedure) regardless of the what the real cause was.

 

Now maybe Joe I've lost my mind tower controller in bum freakin egypt isn't saying it, but again I've never heard it at any airport and more so wouldn't expect a sup to tell any controller to make up his own phraseology.

 

Just in case I suppose it's possible there doing some kind of trial run at certain facilities but I haven't heard about it so I'm quite positive it's not happening in the eastern part of the country at least, so where did you hear a controller say "line up and wait" again David?

Edited July 21, 2008 at 05:42 PM by Guest

[Harold Rutila 974112]

To make this clear...

 

"[runway], position and hold," is currently what is spoken over the radio in the U.S. today. "Line up and wait," is under review and is not (as far as I'm aware) being used at any U.S. airports. So, as of now, there is a difference between TIPH phraseology in Europe and the United States.

 

David, where have you been hearing "line up and wait" in the US?

[Brad Littlejohn]

Hehe thanks guys, one thing that astounds me is that you clear two guys to land, in the UK we tell the one to land and the other one to continue approach number 2...it sounds better I think, and is safer.

 

Yes, but no.

 

What the US is doing when ATC gives pilots clearance to land is that we are saying that by the time your wheels touch the runway, the runway will be cleared for you. The previous arrival will have already exited the runway (and have complied with ATC's other instructions for them). We can extend that [Mod - Happy Thoughts]urance to pilots who are #5, #6, and #7 in line.

 

What the UK is doing is pretty much the same thing, but they are limiting it to only 1. That's all. And because of this, and only having one aircraft on the glideslope (I remember that being the case; it's been a while since I've flown in the UK), you have all of the stacked holds. Excluding JFK on busy (read: REALLY BUSY) days and fog in SFO, unless there is some serious weather going on, you won't see those kind of holds in the US. The UK has these holds daily. With how it's done in the US, we can get more planes on approach and down, more planes cleared to land, and more runway operations.

 

Safer? yes. More efficient? oh yes.

 

Oh yeah.. that's right.. Terminology differences.. I forgot how the UK does it, but they will tell you how/when to descend on the glideslope of an ILS approach. In the US... PTAC.

 

BL.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

like I said its "position and hold" and yea theres a big ICAO switch going on right now but they've been trying to change this stuff forever we're talking about the FAA. Theres no point and running around telling everyone to say "line up and wait" until it's been changed. It is officially "position and hold" for FAA purposes and I can't think of any other way to say it.

 

David is not nearly running around telling everyone to say "line up and wait." He mentions no comment on whether or not the use of "Line Up and Wait" is appropriate. He does mention that he has heard it in use in the U.S. already, although that is the only thing he has not gotten back about yet. That is not any kind of endorsement of the phrase, or advocation that VATSIM should be using it now.

 

No one is debating whether it is officially position and hold. Please calm down, go pour a gl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] of milk, come back and re-read his post.

 

This whole topic started with a discussion of differences between U.S. and U.K. (ICAO) procedure. One of the points, simply, is that the phrase "position and hold" (which is different from our ICAO friends) is actually on it's way out as well. That's all.

 

And this is all very lightly in relation to VATSIM anyways. There are very few situations where we, as VATUSA controllers, even use TIPH ourselves (there are probably just a few airports that need it on a daily or weekly basis). This is really not even that big of an issue as far as we should be concerned.

[David Klain 874106]

Just saw the additional questions. In the last 2-3 months I have heard "Line up and Wait" at Waukegan, Kenosha and Midway.

 

Dave