Project Eastern Wind

[Gary Law 842041]

Mr. Yamane and Mr Lee,

 

Mr. Woo has asked me giving him a hand to coordinate the fly-in event as he is very busy these days...

I will help to ask the ATCs in Hong Kong FIR if they want to be there in the fly-in...

And I hope the VHHH will be fully manned in the event....

 

Regards,

Gary Law

 

Controller 3 in Hong Kong FIR

[William Woo 810764]

Lee,

 

For the VATROC side, I have contacted Ming Lee of VATROC and he agrees to coordinate the ATC service over Taipei FIR.

For Hong Kong, Gary will help coordinating the ATC sevice in HKG FIR.

 

Regards,

William Woo

[Keisuke Yamane]

Mr.Lee

 

 

RJDG_center,RORG_center,RJFF will be manned down to the tower and ground too.

These can correspond to traffic of Korea and China.

Because half the west of Japan is covered...

 

 

 

Rgards,

[William Woo 810764]

Mr.Lee

 

 

RJDG_center,RORG_center,RJFF will be manned down to the tower and ground too.

These can correspond to traffic of Korea and China.

Because half the west of Japan is covered...

 

 

 

Rgards,

Hi Keisuke,

 

Is it possible to add coverage to the Tokyo area?

 

Regards.

William Woo

VATASIA1

[Keisuke Yamane]

I see,

We discuss in VATJPN,Once again.

Please give time.

Thank you sir.

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Yamane,

 

Foremost, Fukuoka Control MUST be there.

 

1. Between RKSI-RJFF, A582 will be the primary route and Incheon Center's radar service will terminate at APELA intersection. You can, if you want, expand Fukuoka Center's coverage to the oceanic area and provide service for inbound and outbound traffic from Korea. However, I really think VATJPN should open Tokyo (RJTG) Center because you will have many traffic coming in from Oceanic area from Korea and Japan.

 

Not that I am saying that Fukuoka is not capable of handling all traffic coming inbound from VATKOR or VATROC, but it would be easier for you guys and provide more secure feeling for pilots flying into Japan. Should VATJPN open RJTG_CTR? I would really want it to open but it is you guys' choice. Goal here in this event is to have "CONTINUOUS" ATC coverage for all air traffic moving among three countries (VATKOR, VATJPN, VATROC).

 

2. Between RCTP (VHHH) - RKSI or RCTP (VHHH) - RJFF), Taipei Center's radar coverage will terminate at SALMI or BULAN. Because Incheon Center's coverage for northbound traffic will only start at ATOTI or RUSAR, Naha control needs expand their service therefore they can cover Tokyo Oceanic CTA. However, there's another option of opening RJTG center and let it take over oceanic control also. That is you, VATJPN's call.

 

 

Bottom line is this, VATJPN needs to:

 

1. Expand RJFF center's coverage or open RJTG center to cover traffic inbound or outbound from Korea.

 

2. Expand RORG center's coverage for Tokyo Oceanic TCA or Open RJTG center and let RJTG center take care of all oceanic activity including Tokyo Oceanic TCA and traffic from Korea.

 

 

Let me know.

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Yamane,

 

Please ignore the first point. I thought it was Tokyo Center that connect from Incheon but it turned out to be Fukuoka itself. Sorry for my bad chart reading. I am approach controller and not really expert on enroute stuff.

 

But the second point still exists vaild.

 

 

To be honest tho, VATJPN should really open RJTG center. Tokyo Center, not only it is convenient for many pilots exploring Japanese air space, it is appealing for VATSIM pilots. It is more like Symbol rather than just a name.

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Gary Law,

 

thanks for helping us out here.

 

I talked to Mr. Ming Lee regarding VATROC preparation. He told me that both RCTP and VHHH will be serviced and I think it is perfect.

 

I was just wondering, even though it is probably politically sensitive, if VATORC can provide limited service for terminals based in mainland China such as Beijing or Shanghai. I do know you guys are not having very great time with mainland chinese VATSIM users and I understand you guys are also not really an expert on procedures of those mainland China airports.

 

However, still mainland China is part of the "main Asia countries" and I firmly believe that there would be many pilots interested in flying into Shanghai or Beijing. I am not expecting full service down to the ground or anything but you know, just CTR position like Shaghai CTA or... Beijing CTA.

 

Let me know what VATROC can provide. This is not a must-to-do stuff but would be a real nice decoration for this big event.

[Gary Law 842041]

Mr. Lee,

 

In fact I could only help to organise the service in Hong Kong FIR and Macau,

and please ask Mr. Ming Lee for the help from VATROC if you want VATROC to do so...

It is because we got different system between Taipei FIR and Hong Kong FIR,

and VATROC will only give [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istance to us....

 

Refer to the one you have asked, we have ATC who knows the procedure of Mainland China well,

and they have given service to Guangzhou,Shanghai,Xiamen,etc.. in some events.

Such as the event holding on the Chinese New Year....Between Guangzhou( Former Canton ) and Taipei.

This time I think Hong Kong could not send any people to China as there is not enough ATC in Hong Kong FIR

As Hong Kong FIR will be one of the destination in the event....We would like to have full-staffed in Hong Kong,

as we know Hong Kong better and we can provide a better service than in the Mainland China.

 

I will try but I really dont think we could provide extra people to provide the service in China.

You may ask VATROC if they got extra people to serve these area in Mainland China.

 

Regards,

Gary Law

Controller 3 in Hong Kong FIR

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Gary Law,

 

I understand it sir. If you are unable, it's unable. I am not pushing it off the limit.

 

 

Mr. Yamane.

 

Any news on how the Toyko, Naha, and Fukuoka Control are gonna work together in this event?

[Keisuke Yamane]

That is under consultation, please wait for a while.

[Gary Law 842041]

Mr. Gary Law,

 

I understand it sir. If you are unable, it's unable. I am not pushing it off the limit.

 

Mr. Lee,

 

Don't say that mate

It is not possible this time only....

It may be possible next time if we hold another fly-in into China...

We need time to coordinate and time to familiarize with the procedure...which may need months to prepare for that....

And, the most important thing, we need to get enough people to participate in the event...

 

Hong Kong FIR is glad to participate and organize more and more Fly-ins with Neighbouring FIRs

in the Asia Region in the very near future.

 

Best Regards,

Gary Law

 

Controller 3 in Hong Kong FIR

Edited July 6, 2005 at 05:51 AM by Guest

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Gary,

 

Don't worry. I was just asking about it to spice something up I know we are suffering some human resource shortage so I guess it's just not an option for now.

 

 

Mr. Yamane,

 

Wilco. Thank you sir and let me know whenever the decision has been made.

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Guys we only have 3 weeks left... i need some progress report here.

 

Planned Date will be August 6th, 2005

 

Exact timing will be decided shortly.

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Yamane,

 

It has been a week. I need some feedback here. Dates are closing in and we need to know what ATC position can be filled and what cannot.

 

I need answers NOW.

 

 

Mr. Gary Law,

 

I need your summary for what position will be filled for Hong Kong FIR in summary.

 

 

Mr. William Woo,

 

I need summary of What airports will be open for RCTP FIR.

 

 

 

Come on guys. We need it NOW!

 

Remember, our goal is to have CONTINUOUS ATC coverage between three countries. It is essential that there will be no radar service termination or ATC absence.

 

 

Regards,

[Gary Law 842041]

Mr. Lee,

 

I am still coordinating Controllers who will be free on the day and willing to be a controller that day.

Please give me some time and I promise I will give you a clear answer for you.

According to that information I have got at this moment, there is about 6 Controllers who will be free that day.

But it is not sure....I will contact more and more Controllers and I hope that we can have full-staff from Delivery to Radar...

But I can be sure that Tower,Approach and Radar will be online and Hong Kong will be fully opened on that day.

 

We have to discuss further about the details about the event (Routing,Time,etc...)....may be later in this week...

But first thing we have to do is... to have coordination with Japan, Korea and Taiwan....

 

Regards,

Gary Law

Controller 3 in Hong Kong FIR

Edited July 12, 2005 at 02:14 PM by Guest

[Keisuke Yamane]

Mr.Lee

 

 

Thank you for waiting. We will open not Fukuoka but Tokyo.

 

 

The following will be opened.

 

RJTG_CTR

RJDG_CTR

RORG_CTR

RJTT_APP

RJTT_TWR

RJTT_GND(or DEL)

 

Although a concrete person in charge determines after this, our idea is this.

 

 

 

Regards

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Yamane,

 

That is perfect sir. Either RJTT or RJFF is fine for hosting airport. But please make sure RJTG_CTR, RJDG_CTR, RORG_CTR is open during the event.

 

Also make sure either RORG_CTR or RJTG_CTR takes care of the RJTG Oceanic CTA. It connects Japan and China and it is essential for radar service termination prevention.

 

Remember, it's CONTINUOUS ATC service between three countries.

 

 

 

Mr. Law,

 

That is fine sir. I just wanted to make sure progress is being made. give me a list no later than 7/19/2005.

 

If you can't come up with one, we might have to delay this event.

 

 

 

Mr. Woo,

 

I know you are busy but we have to discuss about how we going to advertise this event VATSIM-wide.

 

contact me if you can. ASAP.

 

 

Thanks all.

 

 

Best Regards,

[Keisuke Yamane]

RJTG takes care of the airplane which does not p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] RJDG (Oceanic CTA).

However, we recommend "A1" which p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es RJDG.

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr. Yamane,

 

That is fine sir... we'll put A1 in a recommended flight route. I'm pretty sure RCTP FIR will have no problem with that.

 

 

 

Mr. Gary Law and William Woo,

 

As Mr. Yamane recommended, please instruct all available pilots present in Hong Kong FIR and RCTP FIR to utilize A1 route for ROC-JPN or HK-JPN route.

 

 

 

Thank you guys.

 

Regards,

[Ming Lee 811204]

VATROC is still under coordination about the event, but I can make sure that we'll at least open positions as follows:

RCTP_GND

RCTP_TWR

RCTP_APP

TPE_CTR (NORTH)

TPE_CTR(SOUTH)

 

These positions are based on opening only Taipei Chian Kai Shek airport (RCTP).

If we decide to open another airport, we'll also open approach and aerodrome controls concerned.

 

And lets talk about some procedures about Taipei.

North part and east part of Taipei FIR are connected with RORG_CTR, southwest part is connected with HKG_CTR.

We have lots of experiences for continuous service between Taipei and hongKong.

But we seldom met RORG_CTR on normal weekends. We may need to work out agreements between TAIPEI and NAHA before event, due to complex altitude changes of RVSM operation.

 

Though A1 is a preferance route between HKG-TPE-JPN, it's actually major for southwest bound traffic.

From HKG to TPE, even far extending to JPN, M750 is the major transit route.

If the pilot takes A1 to fly to Japan, they MUST fly all the way FL270 until enter NAHA FIR.

It's not an efficient way for pilots, so I still recommand M750 for northest bound traffic.

 

From Taipei to Korea, B576 is the best choice of course.

But if traffic come from hongkong and bound for Korea, they may take either A1 or M750 to enter Taipei FIR.

If they take A1, pilots can expect to cruise on FL270 until APU VOR.

If they take M750, they can connect to APU to join B576 by PEKOE RNAV transition, which is from PILOX(on M750) direct to APU.

Pilots will expect altitude change when joining PEKOE RNAV transition because there is no RVSM procedure implemented on B576.

 

In real life, two traffic on the same altitude must at least 5 minutes aparted to p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the boundary point.

And for SALMI, in real life, they are even required 10~15 minutes separation because of non-radar area around SALMI.

But I think we can reduce this time separation to 5 minutes because VATSIM system provides continuous radar monitor capability.

 

I will adive when we have conclusions of our available positions and service airports.

[Gary Law 842041]

Mr. Lee,

 

Hong Kong will provide following positions at least:

 

VHHH_V_GND(Hong Kong Ground)

VHHH_V_TWR(Hong Kong Tower)

VHHH_V_DEP(Hong Kong Departure)

VHHH_V_APP(Hong Kong Approach)

HKG_V_CTR(Hong Kong Radar)

 

Which will provide fully service inside Hong Kong Airspace.

And VHHH_V_DEL(Hong Kong Delivery may be open if there is high flow of departure traffic and Controllers free)

 

 

But, I have serious concern about the preference route A1....

There is no problem for southbound traffic but surely not for northbound traffic....

According the FLAS of the RVSM which implanted over Hong Kong and Taipei FIR in 2001,

All flight between FL290-FL410 inclusive will go through M750 only...And A1 will only for southbound inside RVSM airspace.

So traffic going through A1 will be on FL270 or below (May only be FL270 or FL250)

All traffic will have a long time to wait from departing Hong Kong as there had to be at least 5 minutes seperation between aircraft at the same level.....

So I suggested M750 for northbound and A1 for southbound inside Taipei FIR.

 

Thanks for you attention.

 

Mr. Yamane,

 

Will M750 airway go through RJDG as well?

Since we cant use A1 for northbound traffic due to RVSM airspace in Taipei.

I think we have to discuss further more about that.....

 

Best Regards,

Gary Law

Controller 3 in Hong Kong FIR

Edited July 13, 2005 at 02:10 PM by Guest

[Jewon Lee 909227]

Mr Ming Lee and Gary Law,

 

Utilizing A1 route in this event is one of the biggest issues. Please find a solution or amendment to your plans so that we can ensure smooth traffic coordination between HKG and RCTP FIR.

 

 

VATKOR will provide following positions at least:

 

RKSI_V_GND (Incheon Int'l Ground)

RKSI_V_TWR (Incheon Int'l Tower)

RKSS_V_APP (Seoul Approach)

RKRR_W_CTR (Incheon Center - West Sector)

RKRR_E_CTR (Incheon Center - East Sector)

RKSS_V_TWR (Gimpo Int'l Tower)

RKSS_V_GND (Gimpo Int'l Ground)

 

Possiblity - RKSS_V_FSS (Seoul Flight Service Station -C/D function)

 

There is possibility of Incheon Center becoming one position due to the reduction in traffic and also possiblity of both RKSI & RKSS GNDs becoming RKSS_V_FSS to carry out clearance delivery function when Towers will do ground traffic coordination also.

 

 

For traffic coming in from China, it's pretty standard B576...

 

Mr Yamane,

 

if you want some special handoff procedure between Incheon Center, Fukuoka, and Tokyo Center, let me know as soon as possible.

 

 

 

Now we have all the airports on the list... it's time to set up a recommended route.

 

 

Necessary Route Recommendation:

 

[KOREA]

 

RKSI-VHHH

RKSI-RCTP

RKSI-RJTT

RKSS-RJTT

 

[HONG KONG]

 

VHHH-RCTP

VHHH-RJTT

VHHH-RKSI

 

[JAPAN]

 

RJTT-RKSI

RJTT-RCTP

RJTT-VHHH

RJTT-RKSS

 

[REPUBLIC OF CHINA]

 

RCTP-VHHH

RCTP-RJTT

RCTP-RKSI

 

 

Let me know your VATSIM controllers prefer what kind of route planning for those destinations. I mean outbound and inbound traffic both.

 

 

Best Regards,

[Gary Law 842041]

Mr. Yamane,Mr. Jewon Lee and Mr. Ming Lee,

 

Necessary Route Recommendation and suggested Cruising Level inside Hong Kong FIR:

 

1. For 07R for Departure and 07L for Arrival before 1500 Zulu

 

RCTP-VHHH

RKSI-VHHH

RJTT-VHHH

--------------------------------------

A1 ELATO1A VHHH (FL310,320,350,360,390,400)

Note: Expect FL130 at MELON

 

VHHH-RCTP

VHHH-RJTT

VHHH-RKSI

--------------------------------------

VHHH OCEAN1A V3 M750 (FL 290,330,370,410)

Note: FL300,340,380 only for traffic landing Taipei

 

VHHH OCEAN1A V2 A1 (FL270 or below /FL430 or above)

 

 

 

2. For 25L for Departure and 25R for Arrival

 

RCTP-VHHH

RKSI-VHHH

RJTT-VHHH

--------------------------------------

A1 ELATO1B VHHH (FL310,320,350,360,390,400)

Note: Expect FL130 at MELON

 

VHHH-RCTP

VHHH-RJTT

VHHH-RKSI

--------------------------------------

VHHH OCEAN1B V3 M750 (FL 290,330,370,410)

Note: FL300,340,380 only for traffic landing Taipei

 

VHHH OCEAN1B V2 A1 (FL270 or below /FL430 or above)

 

 

 

3. For 07R for Departure and 07L for Arrival after 1500 Zulu

(Noise Migrating Procedure)

 

RCTP-VHHH

RKSI-VHHH

RJTT-VHHH

--------------------------------------

A1 ELATO1A VHHH (FL310,320,350,360,390,400)

(Expect vectors MELON direct SOKOE/LIMES)

Note: Expect FL130 at MELON

 

VHHH-RCTP

VHHH-RJTT

VHHH-RKSI

--------------------------------------

VHHH OCEAN1E V3 M750 (FL 290,330,370,410)

Note: FL300,340,380 only for traffic landing Taipei

 

VHHH OCEAN1E V2 A1 (FL270 or below /FL430 or above)

 

This is only for traffic going to M750 or A1 from Hong Kong Intl,

And come from A1 going into Hong Kong.

 

Regards,

Gary Law

Controller 3 in Hong Kong FIR

[Keisuke Yamane]

Mr.Gary Law Mr.Ming Lee

 

 

M750 p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]es RJDG too.

I think also that A1 of the south taking is good and M750 of the north taking

 

 

 

 

MR.Jewon Lee

 

 

>if you want some special handoff procedure between Incheon Center, Fukuoka, and Tokyo Center, let me know as soon as possible.

 

 

At present, I do not feel a special necessity between RKRR and RJTG or RJDG.

Let's talk if there is a necessity in the future.