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Application of Policies in VATUSA


Ian Elchitz 810151
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Well I hope this calms down and cooler heads prevail. I personally don't know Mark, but I have flown in LAX airspace many many times and the controllers are top notch. For that I do say thank you for having a very proffesional staff that handle tons of traffic without a hitch. Mark had to have had some input if he was the Chief and a Instructor so Thank You.

 

I just think these type of posts are just better kept in a forum that isnt available for the whole membership to see. Its just not good for VATSIM and this appears to be a VATUSA issue.

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May I quietly remind everyone of the VATSIM code of conduct please:

1. Members should, at all times, be courteous and respectful to one another.

 

This is avaliable for viewing at http://www.vatsim.net/library/codeofconduct.html. I urge all of you to review these in case you may have forgotten them.

Edited by Guest

Tracy "TS" Salas

vZAU [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istant Webmaster

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John, are you justifying the ignorance of rules, and the lack of enforcement when it happens? A rule is a rule is a rule, and Marc didn't follow it. How can you honestly say Mr. Turner abused his power? HE FAIRLY ENFORCED A RULE THAT INSTRUCTORS ARE AWARE OF. So what if others don't abide by it? Not everyone follows the law that prohibits murdering, but people still do it. So in example, that's like saying that since a lot of people murder, its stupid that this guy should go to jail for it. Not everyone is caught, but he was. Don't be ridiculous: he broke a rule, he got caught. Its stupid that you call Mr. Turner's decision an abuse of power, he enforced a rule by the book. Wah, a good guy got busted. Would you care if it was some instructor that nobody ever heard of? I can GARUNTEE that if it was some other instructor that Ian didn't know, this wouldn't have happened. Get over it, a guy got caught, nasty consequences, but it was fair and by the book.

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VATUSA forum is where it should have been posted Ian

 

Perhaps you are right on that one Lance. I suppose that was an error on my part.

 

and quoting emails in a forum is not proper in my humble opinion.

 

I agree with you with respect to a private email or conversation. This was however an official email sent by VATUSA to all the current members of ZLA, VATUSA, and members of both the VATSIM Board of Governors and Executive Committee. I would never post a private email onto a public forum.

 

The rest of your post with respect to the behaviour of Mr. Sykes towards VATUSA may or may not be correct, and we appreciate understanding how you would have handled his departure in the purely hypothetical situation where you are the VATUSA director.

 

However Mr. Sykes being removed as the Chief is not the issue here.

Ian Elchitz

Just a guy without any fancy titles

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Dude, you are mad because a rule was enforced. Go sit in your corner and cry, don't raise hell about something so stupid. I'm sure that VATUSA is capable of handling the enforcement of this rule without you starting this thread. You are putting 36 other instructors in the line of fire for one guy? Congrats, I hope you are happy. Nothing like screwing over other instructors because they didn't get caught. I doubt Mr. Turner stripped marc of the rating because he was bored and wanted to have some entertainment. How stupid is this?

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John, are you justifying the ignorance of rules, and the lack of enforcement when it happens? A rule is a rule is a rule, and Marc didn't follow it. How can you honestly say Mr. Turner abused his power? HE FAIRLY ENFORCED A RULE THAT INSTRUCTORS ARE AWARE OF. So what if others don't abide by it? Not everyone follows the law that prohibits murdering, but people still do it. So in example, that's like saying that since a lot of people murder, its stupid that this guy should go to jail for it. Not everyone is caught, but he was. Don't be ridiculous: he broke a rule, he got caught. Its stupid that you call Mr. Turner's decision an abuse of power, he enforced a rule by the book. Wah, a good guy got busted. Would you care if it was some instructor that nobody ever heard of? I can GARUNTEE that if it was some other instructor that Ian didn't know, this wouldn't have happened. Get over it, a guy got caught, nasty consequences, but it was fair and by the book.

 

 

I'm not questioning the enforcement of rules, I'm perfectly fine with that, to be honest. If a pilot was breaking the FAR's, you'd bet your butt that I'd want his license suspended.

 

What I'm doing is questioning the punishment, or enfocement. Where is the power and privliges of VATUSA1, or any administrator of VATSIM defined, in ink? Where does it stop? What gives VATUSA1 the power to demote him on the basis of a beuracratic (sp?) policy?

 

Why take away his position as ATM? Sure, take away his I1, but don't get rid of him! He's a leader first, instructor second, period.

 

 

If Mr. Turner can demote an ATM today on these basis, what's going to stop him from wiping out an entire ARTCC he doesn't like the leadership of, and putting in his "chronies" tommorow? You saw the statistics! Why isn't this being enforced everywhere else?

 

 

If we were truely concerned about instructor profiency, we'd wipe out all those listed earlier.

 

But, then we'd be at a loss of quality and professional controllers in VATUSA.

 

Why Marc? Why ZLA? It doesn't make sense to me, to enforce it there, but not across the board.

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Wait, I'm confused.

BTW, I have no side on this issue, but, why do we even have a 10-hour policy per month anyway? We're a virtual network, with virtual pilots, dealing with virtual planes. There's a difference between staying proficent and IMO, fufilling an unnecessary requirement.

 

This obvious frivilous policy enforcement was deliberate and targeted, and I find that an overstepping of bounds on behalf of Mr. Turner was both uncalled for, and an abuse of power.

and then:

 

I'm not questioning the enforcement of rules, I'm perfectly fine with that, to be honest. If a pilot was breaking the FAR's, you'd bet your butt that I'd want his license suspended.

 

Lets see here:

 

"......on behalf of Mr. Turner was both uncalled for, and an abuse of power."

but:

"I'm not questioning the enforcement of rules,....."

 

You aren't questioning it's enforcement, yet you call it an abuse by enforcing it. Hm.

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Wait, I'm confused.
BTW, I have no side on this issue, but, why do we even have a 10-hour policy per month anyway? We're a virtual network, with virtual pilots, dealing with virtual planes. There's a difference between staying proficent and IMO, fufilling an unnecessary requirement.

 

This obvious frivilous policy enforcement was deliberate and targeted, and I find that an overstepping of bounds on behalf of Mr. Turner was both uncalled for, and an abuse of power.

and then:

 

I'm not questioning the enforcement of rules, I'm perfectly fine with that, to be honest. If a pilot was breaking the FAR's, you'd bet your butt that I'd want his license suspended.

 

Lets see here:

 

"......on behalf of Mr. Turner was both uncalled for, and an abuse of power."

but:

"I'm not questioning the enforcement of rules,....."

 

You aren't questioning it's enforcement, yet you call it an abuse by enforcing it. Hm.

 

 

 

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

 

Im NOT questioning the justification of the enforcement!

 

Im questioniong the enforcement and punishment itself...

 

Some of this is called INTERPRETATION.

 

Interesting how you can cut and paste certian sections to discredit me.

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Stephen:

 

Ian(and i am paraphrasing) called this an unfair enforcement of the rules because Mark was punished when several others in violation of thie policy were not.

 

Now that it has been brought to the attention of the general VATSIM membership, VATUSA not uniformly enforcing this policy would be unfair.

Tracy "TS" Salas

vZAU [Mod - Happy Thoughts]istant Webmaster

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Dude, you are mad because a rule was enforced. Go sit in your corner and cry, don't raise hell about something so stupid. I'm sure that VATUSA is capable of handling the enforcement of this rule without you starting this thread. You are putting 36 other instructors in the line of fire for one guy? Congrats, I hope you are happy. Nothing like screwing over other instructors because they didn't get caught. I doubt Mr. Turner stripped marc of the rating because he was bored and wanted to have some entertainment. How stupid is this?

 

Stephen - we don't know each other at all (here on the network), and this certainly is not a good way to go about becoming friends.

 

I do however know a lot of those guys on that list. In fact that list is sort of a Who's Who in Vatusa. Lots of people who are making active contributions to our community right now or have made m[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ive ones in the past. No one is calling their Instructing ability into question, no one is calling their commitment to their centers and our community into question either.

 

I've always been a straightforward guy. I am never afraid to step on the carpet in front of everyone and call a spade a spade. If any of the people on that list are upset at me, then so be it - and a huge loss to me personally (as many are considered GOOD friends). I'm willing to bet those that know me won't take it personally.

 

Policies need to be applied consistently. In this case, the policy makes no sense.

Ian Elchitz

Just a guy without any fancy titles

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Stephen I think you got the issue wrong. Ian doesn't appear to be complaining about Marc being demoted from the ATM position, but rather his demotion from Instructor to Controller. It is evident with Ian's research, that this action was clearly targeted towards Marc unfairly. And that is where this issue lies within.

Alex Goldstein

 

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Stephen,

 

Here's what I'm interpreting, and what I'm understanding. Lets say if a cop has a list of people who are speeding (Much like in Europe with the traffic cameras) They're all going to be ticketed, and the regulation is being enforced. However, in other cases, A cop can't be in two places at once, and literally catch all of the speeders in town. If there were a list of lawbreakers, then naturally the cops will ticket/arrest all of the violators. Now, when you fire one person, and it is KNOWN WHO ELSE is violating the exact same rule, with some sort of evidence/proof, and nothing is done to those violators, then yes, its somewhat biased IMHO. I'm not in any way trying to insult you, make you angry or anything, I'm just trying to find better terms with some examples to explain it.

 

Happy 2006, everyone!

 

-Ricky

Ricardo L. Campos

AMT1393

"Pinto 74K Runway 27 Cleared for takeoff, winds 250 @ 7"

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However Mr. Sykes being removed as the Chief is not the issue here.

 

OH, I would disagree there. I think we are capable of reading between those lines.

 

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

Chanse "CW" Watson

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WOW! These posts are multiplying like dandelions in the lawn at spring time!

 

I would like to address Jeff Turner,

 

Well the m[Mod - Happy Thoughts] mail you sent out to us ZLA crew was quite a bombshell, pretty much ruined my New Years day. I'm not going to copy it here, but I do have some very strong feelings about this.

 

Please keep in mind, I don't know the "big" picture, as I've only been with ZLA for about 6 months, and currently hold a S3.

 

But I don't understand, from what i've seen, Marc Sykes (MS) has been the chief of ZLA for over 3+ years, has revamped the training program, wrote numerous articles for pilots and controllers, and maintains one of the highest ARTCC's in VATUSA.

 

And currently, we have a ton of new students signing up, instructors and mentors taking the time to teach them, excellent contollers, mentors and instructors, and we get some traffic too!

 

We have no broken links on our website, and I've never seen any complaints or dissention about our ARTCC.

 

And I must add this, when I started, I would send MS endless emails and PM's about the most stupid questions (anyone could look up in the SOP's) and Marc RESPONDED TO EVERY EMAIL/PM that I sent.

 

Now IMHO, that's not the type of person that deserves to get FIRED!

 

He's a damn good instructor, and give credit where credit is due!!!

 

And it troubles me to think that as we do this as a hobby, where theres no monetary compensation, and to put so much time into a hobby, that your contributions are CRUSHED, (just like the kid that built the cool model airplane, ready for its first flight, to be stepped on by some little bastard) then whats the point to continue?

 

Why not give back to MS, what he's ALREADY contributed to VATSIM?

 

Thanks for your consideration

 

Respectivly,

Gerry Hattendorf

ZLA Webmaster

VATSIM Supervisor

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