Application of Policies in VATUSA

[Ezra Sugar 810828]

nothing of merit

 

The [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ of even attempting to compare logging on to the VATSIM network (as a volunteer .. as a hobby) with paying one's taxes (a legal obligation) boggles my mind. You might be able to argue that VATUSA and the IRS are somewhat similar, in terms of being bloated, openly corrupt bureaucracies, but the obligations owed to each are so different as to be incomparable.

 

Be thankful that Lance is around, otherwise you'd have by far the dumbest post on this board today.

 

LOL

[Marc Sykes 852946]

I do apologize for that error in judgement. We all do it.

 

I'll try that line out next time I'm in the Terminal sim and end up welding metal at 4,000 feet. Somehow I don't think it'll do me any good. The statement on its face is correct, but some of us do it a lot less frequently than others do. Since you took over, the story of VATUSA has been one of miscues, bad policy decisions, horrible public relations, widespread dissatisfaction, censorship, mean-spiritedness, and complete disregard for any opposing point of view. [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

 

Hmm, I'll be sure to avoid flying in Canadian airspace as a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]enger anytime between now and the time you reach the mandatory retirement age...

 

That'll be difficult .. there isn't one.

[Matthew Kramer]

GOOSE-FRABBA!

Brilliantly inserted.

-Matt

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

It was merely a public service for the deficient among us. We must, after all, remain ADA compliant.

 

What does the American Dental [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociation have to do with this?

[Donno Cole 813628]

It was merely a public service for the deficient among us. We must, after all, remain ADA compliant.

 

What does the American Dental [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ociation have to do with this?

 

They want to make sure we brush after every meal and floss at least twice a day

[Mike Hale 812757]

Post removed due to breach of Code of Conduct section A11. VATSIM disciplinary procedures are being followed

 

Ruth McTighe

VP Communications

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

I have now had the disappointing task of removing repeated copies of the same unacceptably abusive post from this thread. I have allowed the thread to continue as the general issues raised are of interest and concern to all members.

 

However personal attacks are not acceptable, and abusive language will be subject to VATSIM disciplinary procedures (Code of Conduct para A11). If you can't make your point without being polite, then I suggest you don't say anything.

 

Ruth McTighe

VP-Communications

 

Addendum:

While posting this the post immediately above appeared. It has now been removed as wholly unacceptable to VATSIM

[Mike Hale 812757]

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Jeff Greth 896502]

Bye Mike.

[Donno Cole 813628]

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Jeff Greth 896502]

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

The requirement to be polite applies to all posters. If you can't make a post without being rude or sarcastic, then please don't post.

 

Ruth

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

The requirement to be polite applies to all posters. If you can't make a post without being rude or sarcastic, then please don't post.

 

Ruth

 

Hey Ruth!

 

Hope you had a great New Years day, I'm just hoping you will cut some slack for the ZLA members that post here, as we all got the bombshell email this morning about MS.

 

Were all upset with this, and well as a close knit family that we are, tentions can run high.

 

So please consider this before disiplinary actions are taken! PLEASE!!

 

Let's start out the NEW YEAR on a POSITIVE attitude,,,, PLEASE!

 

Thanks,

Edited January 2, 2006 at 01:19 AM by Guest

[Paul Heaney 879309]

Thanks Gerry, But I don't think Ruth was going to remove that post.

[Jeffery Williams 849847]

I'm hearing echos.....

[Ruth McTighe 824054]

Don't worry Gerry - I realise that tensions are running high, and there is a lot of concern in ZLA over the recent events.

 

Disciplinary action is a last resort only for those who use downright and persistently abusive language, as has happened with one poster on here. However it is incomebent on everyone to take a deep breath and reconsider before hitting the "send" button if you are replying in the heat of the moment. This thread has the potential to be a useful discussion on the issues that were raised originally, but not if people start using it for cheap shots or to gloat.

 

Ruth

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

Gents,

 

However, these points that have been made about Marc being a Air Traffic Manager and doing things behind the scenes is one that I understand and can appreciate that as I've been one for several years and in saying that I would re-instated Marc's Instructor rating if he had decided to remain a ZLA controller, and I do apologize for that error in judgement.

 

Jeff, while I personally admire your taking full responsibility for the situation (even though the decision apparently didn't lie solely in your hands), this is the second major "error in judgement" made by you or your staff in just the last couple days. You had your one "official" post to set matters straight and clear up the confusion in this forum, but you completely avoid the issue at hand. Why?

 

Reinstating Marc's post as Instructor does nothing to address allegations of applying policies unfairly and non-uniformly. "Reviewing the backround that Ian provided" in an attempt to get Instructors online more does nothing to address the matter either.

 

You and your staff seriously need to determine:

 

1) What are the online time requirements for instructional staff?

2) Are those policies going to be enforced or not?

2a) If so, Ian gave you an excellent place to begin the enforcement process.

2b) If not, let's get them removed from VATUSA policy. If the rules are not going to be enforced universally, or will be enforced with bias, there is absolutely no sense in having the rules in place.

 

Jeff, I want VATUSA to succeed as much as you do. I know you and I both share a similar vision for what VATUSA can become. Don't keep telling us how you're going to improve VATUSA...show us.

[Christopher Serio 823884]

Guys,

 

Those numbers that Ian posted do not in any way quantify an instructor's availability and presence in an ARTCC. I personally (as do many instructors) spend many many hours offline responding to emails, training students in the sweatbox (private server), communicating with students over AIM/Skype/Teamspeak and writting software. So i think i can speak for most of the instructors listed and say that to trust those numbers would be a serious blunder.

[Donald Fiveash 854851]

To Jeff Turner,

 

I received your email this morning, Jan 1, 2006 and have to comment.

 

It was very unprofessional and not something I would hope to see from this organization.

 

In my time as a Chief Pilot and Director of Operations for scheduled and non-scheduled air charter companies I have found it my painful duty to end the employment of pilots or staff over the years.

 

I have never felt it necessary to go to the rest of the organization and lay out my case in public. The only managers that I have ever seen do this were managers that were not secure in their own command and had to seek reinforcements or justification for their poor decisions.

 

I would think an open apology to Mr. Sykes is in order and that it should be distributed in the same manner that your vitriolic email was published.

 

Also, a grammar and spell checker is highly recommended.

 

 

Don Fiveash

854851

ZLA S-3

[Richard Green 810012]

I would think an open apology to Mr. Sykes is in order and that it should be distributed in the same manner that your vitriolic email was published.

 

 

Don -

 

I think Jeff apologized in the most public manner possible... this forum.

 

If MS chooses to accept that apology, that is another story and that isn't a manner for anyone else to comment on as its a decision that only one person can make.

[Ian Elchitz 810151]

I can [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ure you that the removal of Marc's instructor rating was not a personal one. I say this because I was not the only one that had a say in the matter, I was simply the guy that made the final decision.

 

Jeff - thanks for responding. I'd never in a million years challenge you saying that the removal of the I rating was not a personal one.

 

However, these points that have been made about Marc being a Air Traffic Manager and doing things behind the scenes is one that I understand and can appreciate that as I've been one for several years and in saying that I would re-instated Marc's Instructor rating if he had decided to remain a ZLA controller, and I do apologize for that error in judgement. We all do it.

 

Fair enough. Mistakes happen and admitting error and apologizing for them is no small feat.

 

Additionally, I will say that I will be reviewing the backround that Ian provided and see what we can do to raise those numbers,

 

Reviewing the policy is what I was looking for as I agree with:

 

after all, if we don't we're doing you a dis-service.

Removing active and contributing members of our community is obviously not what any of us want to see. I know that you above all understand how much goes on behind the scenes by ARTCC staff and Instructors that doesn't convert into "logged on" time. Taking a look at the validity of the policy is a step in the right direction.

 

Again - with all of the mud slinging going on here, thanks for looking beyond it, not attempting to "read between the lines", and replying to the initial questions.

 

With respect to the issue of the policy, consider myself satisfied that VATUSA will start moving in the right direction in order to resolve it. Unfortunately, ZLA at this time doesn't have any representatives at the VATUSA table to take part in this - none of us are happy about that (and haven't been for a while) so you can expect to see some strong applications for this position soon - probably including my own.

[Scott Lansing 953481]

Some of you folks take this hobby entirely too serious. I've never seen such a bunch of immature, name-calling, elementary school talk since I left the third grade in 1975.

 

I don't know Marc Sykes, Jeff Turner, or any of you for that matter but you ALL need to remember one thing: No one person is bigger than the organization. Your membership here is a privilege, not a right. If you have any doubts about that, think about Terrell Owens. It doesn't matter how popular you are, or how damn good you are, you are still going to play by the rules. If you choose not to - you're gone. It's that simple.

 

Who cares what a great guy Mr. Sykes is? Sounds to me like he did some stuff he shouldn't have been doing. I don't know what and I don't care to know what. But I know a lot of nice guys who got their butts in a ringer for doing stuff they shouldn't have been doing. What's the point? Take responsibility for your own actions. Mr. Sykes, I'd recommend you suck it up and take your punishment like a man and quit tossing out feed to the pigeons for a quick boost to your self-esteem.

 

For you other folks who just want to berate and challenge each others' intellect with your Thesaurus sitting next to you, get a life. Find another hobby that doesn't include human interaction.

 

Before any of you have the urge to sit up in your chair and respond to this post, just stop and think about one thing...this is just a game. We are sitting in our homes playing with a piece of software. It isn't real. It's simply a hobby.

 

If you think it is any more than that, I'm sorry.

[Marc Sykes 852946]

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Brad Littlejohn]

Some of you folks take this hobby entirely too serious. I've never seen such a bunch of immature, name-calling, elementary school talk since I left the third grade in 1975.

 

I don't know Marc Sykes, Jeff Turner, or any of you for that matter but you ALL need to remember one thing: No one person is bigger than the organization. Your membership here is a privilege, not a right. If you have any doubts about that, think about Terrell Owens. It doesn't matter how popular you are, or how damn good you are, you are still going to play by the rules. If you choose not to - you're gone. It's that simple.

 

Who cares what a great guy Mr. Sykes is? Sounds to me like he did some stuff he shouldn't have been doing. I don't know what and I don't care to know what. But I know a lot of nice guys who got their butts in a ringer for doing stuff they shouldn't have been doing. What's the point? Take responsibility for your own actions. Mr. Sykes, I'd recommend you suck it up and take your punishment like a man and quit tossing out feed to the pigeons for a quick boost to your self-esteem.

 

For you other folks who just want to berate and challenge each others' intellect with your Thesaurus sitting next to you, get a life. Find another hobby that doesn't include human interaction.

 

Before any of you have the urge to sit up in your chair and respond to this post, just stop and think about one thing...this is just a game. We are sitting in our homes playing with a piece of software. It isn't real. It's simply a hobby.

 

If you think it is any more than that, I'm sorry.

 

Scott,

 

This is exactly the kind of post that Ruth warned the entire lot of us about not making. This is rather uncalled for, and without knowing what has transpired, as you willingly admit, you really can't judge what one should or should not do.

 

As you also mentioned, this is a hobby; a game. But you also can not take for granted, the time, commitment, and that people have gone to to make this what it is now. Marc has gone through a great deal of it at ZLA, and there is nothing that can be taken away from that. I will give you some background, as you once again, said that you did not know what he has done:

 

3 - 4 years ago, ZLA was raging against itself, with a number of policies local to the sector coming into serious and questionable doubt. To summarise, some did not like what was going on, and decided to take things to a legal point. Arguments rose, friendships severed, lawsuits ensued. Needless to say, people who took this hobby seriously, took it to an extreme.

 

Marc was selected as ZLA chief, by none other than one Ian Elchitz (VATUSA3 at the time). Marc had sent in a rather intense and well thought out/structured application as to what he had planned for ZLA, and to this date, has done it to the best of his ability. He has not only turned around a sector that was falling apart trying to maintain itself as one of the best sectors in VATUSA, but has gained the respect of his peers and crew working with him. I should remind you all that what makes a leader a great leader is the respect he gets from those working under him. If he succeeds, they succeed. That leader's respect, like his support, is earned, not bestowed. And Marc, taking ZLA from what it was then to what it is now, has earned the respect and support from not only his staff and crew, but also from the person who appointed him. He isn't just a sector chief in a hobby; he is someone that has come out to meet us all time and time again. We've worked with him on the scopes. We've invited him to visit. We've had dinner with him. All of us at ZLA, as well as those from outside ZLA who have met him, are honoured to call him a friend. We'd all go to bat for him, as he would for us.

 

So you wonder why we are upset? this is why. I'll give you this challenge, if you are wont to take it. Head to the VATUSA convention coming up. I'm more than sure you will meet a lot of people and make new friends, that you will undoubtedly get close to. What would you do and how would you feel, if that person were sacked, like Marc has been. I'm not just talking about a game here. I'm talking about a friendship. Think long and hard before answering this question. Would you be upset?

 

BL.

[Lance Williams]

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ