Application of Policies in VATUSA

[Scott Lansing 953481]

Brad,

 

Thank you for the reply and I understand how one may be upset when something "bad" happens to a friend. I wouldn't expect anything less from my friends. But there's a difference in supporting a friend and attacking an institution. I don't doubt for a minute that Marc was a valuable [Mod - Happy Thoughts]et and great leader to the ZLA. But again, that doesn't make him bigger than the organization itself. It doesn't give him reprieve for not following the rules.

 

You can still be a great friend to someone who has done wrong. But you can only support him. You don't attack those who handed down judgement. If I get caught speeding too many times and lose my license, it isn't the cop's fault or the judge's fault that I lost my license. It's my fault. I have no one to blame but myself for breaking the rules. I certainly wouldn't want all my friends going and attacking the police and the courts because I lost my license.

 

I couldn't expect to keep my job I've had for 20 years for very long if I went in and started playing by my own rules and regulations. My company could care less how much time and effort I've given them for two decades if I think I'm bigger and better and believe that I was doing it a favor by my mere existence. I like to think I do a helluva job and I'd like to think I'm pretty valuable but I know darn well there's a long line of people waiting to take my place. Knowing that, I keep my ego in check and do my job.

 

I would like you to think long and hard about this before answering...

 

Would you be just as upset if someone you didn't know did exactly what Mr. Sykes had done and was handed down the same punishment?

[Chanse Watson 834810]

Good post BL.

 

It's funny how ZLA is always in the spotlight, whether it's for good reasons - commentary or positive feedback or negative - when people complain of how they claim we "steal" the traffic from other ARTCCs or how we are way to strict with our training program or what not. Just an observation that I'm sure others have noticed as well. Anyhow, I digress.

 

Who cares what a great guy Mr. Sykes is? Sounds to me like he did some stuff he shouldn't have been doing. I don't know what and I don't care to know what. But I know a lot of nice guys who got their butts in a ringer for doing stuff they shouldn't have been doing. What's the point?

 

To answer your question, we care. I've been with ZLA since early 2001. You know why I haven't left (except for a few exceptional, regrettable occasions) is because not only because of the high professionalism and mark that we hold, but the amount of work and dedication that it took to get there. I've seen ZLA have its rough times but when that happens, someone is there to bring us out of the whole. This time, MS and his staff did an incredible job bringing ZLA to where it is today.

 

But there's a difference in supporting a friend and attacking an institution. I don't doubt for a minute that Marc was a valuable [Mod - Happy Thoughts]et and great leader to the ZLA. But again, that doesn't make him bigger than the organization itself. It doesn't give him reprieve for not following the rules.

 

Who said he was "bigger than the organization itself"? Noone. He and as well as an abundance of supports agree that the removal of his instructor status was bogus and unfair. He has every right to be turned up by this action.

 

Take responsibility for your own actions. Mr. Sykes, I'd recommend you suck it up and take your punishment like a man and quit tossing out feed to the pigeons for a quick boost to your self-esteem.

 

I don't necessarily think he's doubting the reasons given by his demotion of ATM, but by his demotion of his instructors rank which has not a thing to do with being a Chief.

Edited January 2, 2006 at 04:21 AM by Guest

[Brad Littlejohn]

If you are upset Brad, you should only be upset with your former "Chief." He brought this on himself by refusing to be a productive member of the VATUSA "Team."

 

Lance, Drop it. I'm not talking to you right now, and once again, you're egging this on. Your provocations in this are not called for, warranted, desired, nor required.

 

That is all I am going to say. Unless you have something productive to say about going forward with this, don't say a bloody word at all.

 

Thank you very much.

 

BL.

[Lance Williams]

To answer your question, we care. I've been with ZLA since early 2001. You know why I haven't left (except for a few exceptional, regrettable occasions) is because not only because of the high professionalism and mark that we hold, but the amount of work and dedication that it took to get there.

 

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Gerry Hattendorf 935415]

If you are upset Brad, you should only be upset with your former "Chief." He brought this on himself by refusing to be a productive member of the VATUSA "Team."

 

I'm sorry to but in here Lance, but when you say he refused to be productive memeber of the team, I'm a bit confused?

 

Marc was selected as ZLA chief, by none other than one Ian Elchitz (VATUSA3 at the time). Marc had sent in a rather intense and well thought out/structured application as to what he had planned for ZLA, and to this date, has done it to the best of his ability. He has not only turned around a sector that was falling apart trying to maintain itself as one of the best sectors in VATUSA, but has gained the respect of his peers and crew working with him. I should remind you all that what makes a leader a great leader is the respect he gets from those working under him. If he succeeds, they succeed. That leader's respect, like his support, is earned, not bestowed. And Marc, taking ZLA from what it was then to what it is now, has earned the respect and support from not only his staff and crew, but also from the person who appointed him. He isn't just a sector chief in a hobby; he is someone that has come out to meet us all time and time again. We've worked with him on the scopes. We've invited him to visit. We've had dinner with him. All of us at ZLA, as well as those from outside ZLA who have met him, are honoured to call him a friend. We'd all go to bat for him, as he would for us.

 

And as I've stated before, (although I've never had the honor to meet him in person) MS has gone out of his way to help me (and many other newebees) to get started, and never once has not responded to ANY of my questions.

 

Hmmm,, if that isn't commitment to this HOBBY, then please tell me what it is!!

 

Sorry, this just doesn't sit well with me.

Edited January 2, 2006 at 04:23 AM by Guest

[Brad Littlejohn]

To answer your question, we care. I've been with ZLA since early 2001. You know why I haven't left (except for a few exceptional, regrettable occasions) is because not only because of the high professionalism and mark that we hold, but the amount of work and dedication that it took to get there.

 

The "Professionalism" part has been forgotten at ZLA by several of the "senior" staff members. They are the ones bringing ZLA down right now, nobody else.

 

Lance, drop it.

 

BL.

Edited January 2, 2006 at 04:24 AM by Guest

[Lance Williams]

If you are upset Brad, you should only be upset with your former "Chief." He brought this on himself by refusing to be a productive member of the VATUSA "Team."

 

Lance, Drop it. I'm not talking to you right now, and once again, you're egging this on. Your provocations in this are not called for, warranted, desired, nor required.

 

That is all I am going to say. Unless you have something productive to say about going forward with this, don't say a bloody word at all.

 

Thank you very much.

 

BL.

 

Brad, I'm in this discussion as much as you are. If you can't handle my views on the subject, don't read them. I'm not telling you or anyone else to shut up here like you are.

[Scott Lansing 953481]

I don't necessarily think he's doubting the reasons given by his demotion of ATM, but by his demotion of his instructors rank which has not a thing to do with being a Chief.

 

Is he qualified to hold that title as specified by the rules and regulations set forth by the governing body? If the answer is "No" I guess I am missing your point.

[Lance Williams]

I'm sorry to but in here Lance, but when you say he refused to be productive memeber of the team, I'm a bit confused?

 

He removed himself from the management discussion list. He refused to participate in meetings, he publicly called for VATUSA resignations, yet always refused to participate in productive conversations on how VATUSA could be improved, etc, etc, etc...

 

That's why he's gone and rightfully so.

[Chanse Watson 834810]

There is always two sides to a story and I'll leave this as my last post on this thread.

[Lance Williams]

You are correct Chanse. Oh and Brad. I'd invite both you and Marc to come to the VATUSA convention. I'd love to discuss this further.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

Some of you folks take this hobby entirely too serious. I've never seen such a bunch of immature, name-calling, elementary school talk since I left the third grade in 1975.

 

[...]

 

Before any of you have the urge to sit up in your chair and respond to this post, just stop and think about one thing...this is just a game. We are sitting in our homes playing with a piece of software. It isn't real. It's simply a hobby.

 

If you think it is any more than that, I'm sorry.

 

Simulation and emulation of other things is something of human nature. In our day and age, there are so many great things out there to experience that it's [probably] not humanely possible to do everything. If someone has chosen a career path already, but finds he has a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for something, such as Air Traffic Control, or aviation, he's going to pursue that p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion. Everyone pursues p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ions and hobbies, and when you love something, you want to go all out; you want to have the best experience you can.

 

Children sit back and play "house" and "family" and other versions of a similar game, emulating those idols and desires they have around them. As we develop, children often role play and dream of things they'd like to do, but cannot. I'm not embar[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed....I had my lightsaber and blaster rifle and a bunch of us in our neighborhood collected to fight against the evil Empire. We had our dreams that, could not, obviously, be fulfilled.

 

There's the guys out there that have their model trains, and model cities, and model airplanes. There's the guys out there that fix up old cars, and the guys that go boating. Some people, when they have a p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion for something, like to go all out.

 

The same can be said for this organization. The founders of VATSIM, and thousands of us who discovered them, found people who had the same p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion: a love for aviation. There are the thousands of us, who love this simulation, this emulation, so greatly, that we want to go all out! We want it to be "as real as it gets," and we want things to be the best they possibly can. I'm the dork who sits and watches Law and Order and Star Trek in my spare time, by I don't care! I also love, dearly, this organization, and there is a LOT I do, and would continue to do, for it! That is the feeling behind much of these people who do all this work for ARTCC's and other facilities.

 

We come up in arguments and disagreements a lot, because we all want things to live up to our aspirations, and very many times, have differences of opinions, and find problems in ways that things are carried out. This can be unfortunate, but we almost always prevail!

 

I am an aviation fanatic, and I want VATSIM to be the most realistic as possible, because I probably will never actually get behind a scope, and may not get behind the yoke, and to me, and a vast many others, this is NOT just a GAME. This is more than that, this is a hobby and dream of ours!

 

Maybe you don't feel that same way, Scott. But I, and a vast many others do, and I don't appreciate you deprecating that! Mind what you say, and if you don't like what's going on in this thread or others, then don't read them, because they are going farther than you wish to. If all you want to do is fly in Flight Simulator, that's all you have to do, and you can mind your own.

 

If you think it is any less than that, I'm sorry.

 

As far as this thread is truly concerned, I have no opinion, as I don't really know any details, I sorry for my digression.

 

Respectfully,

[Marc Sykes 852946]

Just a couple of amendments, Lance:

 

He removed himself from the management discussion list

 

Correct, because I was told to stop posting or I would be replaced. I made several posts about policies under consideration and continually received harsh, har[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ing emails back from Jeff Turner. That discussion list should have been called "St. Fum" since inevitably after making a post I'd get a private email starting with "Shut the f*** up Marc ..." (or words to that effect). Why should I continue to be a member of a mailing list if I can't say anything and am not allowed to contribute.

 

Following that, a separate list was set up specifically for training discussion by Jim Johnson (VATUSA3). I joined that list (in response to a specific invitation from Jim) and then was removed from it, not two days later, by Jeff Turner. Hmmm ....

 

He refused to participate in meetings

 

That I couldn't possibly have known about since I was removed from the staff discussion lists. Also, why should I take part in a staff meeting when I cannot reasonably expect to be allowed to make a contribution? It seemed quite reasonable to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that the threats to remove myself from staff discussions, or else, would apply to meetings as it did to the discussion lists.

 

he publicly called for VATUSA resignations

 

True, and I'll do it again. In the interests of VATUSA and VATSIM, Jeff Turner should resign, or be dismissed. I say this not just because his tenure as VATUSA1 has been an utter failure overall, but because he has been guilty of severe har[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ment of ARTCC staffers, including myself. He has also continually censored dissenting viewpoints, most notably deleting my entire post history at the VATUSA staff forums.

 

yet always refused to participate in productive conversations on how VATUSA could be improved, etc, etc, etc...

 

See the parts above about the removal from discussion lists, deletion of forum posts, and email har[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ment. To the extent that I attempted to participate, my efforts were thwarted. I must admit that after a certain amount of this I gave up trying, but I think that's to be expected, and was certainly Jeff Turner's goal.

 

'd invite both you and Marc to come to the VATUSA convention. I'd love to discuss this further.

 

If you want to discuss this further, "discuss" it with a brick wall in your neighbourhood.

[Lance Williams]

Marc,

 

Thanks for your reply. I don't agree with anything you have just said though. You were invited to participate, yet continued the same behavior you have displayed with your reply above.

 

Your dismissal was justified and called for.

 

I, and most everyone else here support Jeff & VATUSA and will continue to work at improving it.

 

You will not be missed.

[Christopher Serio 823884]

http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?t=1538

[Andrew Miller 873677]

I hope everything goes well in the VATUSA convention. I was planning on having a good time.

[Marc Sykes 852946]

I don't agree with anything you have just said though.

 

Of course not, I posted an accurate, factual, well-researched account instead of going the Lance route: [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Scott Lansing 953481]

Maybe you don't feel that same way, Scott. But I, and a vast many others do, and I don't appreciate you deprecating that! Mind what you say, and if you don't like what's going on in this thread or others, then don't read them, because they are going farther than you wish to. If all you want to do is fly in Flight Simulator, that's all you have to do, and you can mind your own.

 

I'm not sure I am understanding you. If you [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed I was belittleling you personally, I apologize. But I didn't realize there was a scale of level of p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion of this hobby required before having an opinion on the topics in these forums. If there is, please direct me to the link so I may check my qualifications.

[Lance Williams]

I don't agree with anything you have just said though.

 

Of course not, I posted an accurate, factual, well-researched account instead of going the Lance route: [MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ.

 

[MOD - No need for this] 800012 RJ

[Alex Goldstein 857161]

Thanks for your reply. I don't agree with anything you have just said though. You were invited to participate, yet continued the same behavior you have displayed with your reply above.

 

I am not really taking any side here and have nothing against you Lance but honest question..How do you know what he was invited to and what he wasn't? Last I checked I didn't think you were working behind the scenes here. Tell me if I am wrong tho..

[Lance Williams]

Thanks for your reply. I don't agree with anything you have just said though. You were invited to participate, yet continued the same behavior you have displayed with your reply above.

 

I am not really taking any side here and have nothing against you Lance but honest question..How do you know what he was invited to and what he wasn't? Last I checked I didn't think you were working behind the scenes here. Tell me if I am wrong tho..

 

I was working behind the scenes Alex. I speak from a few months of "behind the scenes" experience and that brief stint was enough to see what was going on.

 

continued forum posts by certain individuals have just cemented my "impression."

[Alex Goldstein 857161]

Like I said Lance, it was an honest question. Thank you for your reply. No need for the attitude.

[Steve Ogrodowski 876322]

I'm not sure I am understanding you. If you [Mod - Happy Thoughts]umed I was belittleling you personally, I apologize. But I didn't realize there was a scale of level of p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ion of this hobby required before having an opinion on the topics in these forums. If there is, please direct me to the link so I may check my qualifications.

 

This thread is concerning an ARTCC facility, and its members, as well as VATUSA leadership. You clearly stated that you have no idea what is going on, and have no idea who any of these leaders are.

 

You continued to belittle us who "take this hobby too seriously."

 

We take this hobby this seriously because we want to, and if you think it's wrong that we take it so seriously, you don't need to go about it in such a surly manner.

 

It's best they work things out as they will.

 

I don't know very many details on this subject, and I haven't spoken on it. You said you don't either, and it's courteous for you, in turn, to not say anything that you don't truly know about.

 

Respectfully,

[Lance Williams]

Like I said Lance, it was an honest question. Thank you for your reply. No need for the attitude.

 

Alex, what attitude? I just answered your question??

[Alex Goldstein 857161]

Ops..my bad Lance thought that second comment was triggered towards me. Sorry bout that!